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Pops Tickle
Tickle Industries
#21 - 2015-06-13 08:33:08 UTC
Igor Nappi wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:

nullsec alliances as the most pvp active in the game,


Nullblobs generate a lot of killmails (including endless stream of POS mods Lol) but you shouldn't mistake that for actual PVP.

Please enlighten me. "Actual PvP" is what exactly?

CCP Rise wrote:

"We have tried and tried to validate the myth that griefing has a pronounced affect on new players - we have failed."

Source
Yarda Black
The Black Redemption
#22 - 2015-06-13 08:34:35 UTC
Igor Nappi wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:

nullsec alliances as the most pvp active in the game,


Nullblobs generate a lot of killmails (including endless stream of POS mods Lol) but you shouldn't mistake that for actual PVP.


I'll try and remember that when 300 guys are "interacting" with me using all kinds of virtual weaponry.

"You are not against me and this isn't actually happening"

Something like that?
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2015-06-13 08:36:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Aza Ebanu
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Uhm because most of those kills are from high sec gankers right?... Maybe they are carebears with teeth!

No, because those kills include losses to Concord as well.

If you look at the homepage of zkillboard, Concord is the #1 most killing Corporation in the game each week (almost always unless there is a huge fight somewhere):

http://www.zkillboard.com

So gankers lose lots of ships and those stats are part of the stats claimed to show that highsec is dangerous.

So ganking is a dangerous thing and clearly not risk free pvp.

If you look at top Alliances too, it usually shows nullsec alliances as the most pvp active in the game, with a couple of highsec and lowsec Alliances often in the list too.

Well how do we know those are gankers though?
let say a quarterof the 300+ ships were gank related losses, where does the other three quarters come from?
Pops Tickle
Tickle Industries
#24 - 2015-06-13 08:38:13 UTC
This thread is insulting, full of hypocrisy and I will not dignify it with any further responses.

CCP Rise wrote:

"We have tried and tried to validate the myth that griefing has a pronounced affect on new players - we have failed."

Source
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2015-06-13 08:40:04 UTC
Pops Tickle wrote:
This thread is insulting, full of hypocrisy and I will not dignify it with any further responses.

How do you get insulted by data? My goodness!
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#26 - 2015-06-13 08:44:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Aza Ebanu wrote:

Well how do we know those are gankers though?
let say a quarterof the 300+ ships were gank related losses, where does the other three quarters come from?

What?

Who does Concord kill?

Are you saying Concord kills lots of people other than gankers?

If you jump from lowsec into highsec while carrying a criminal Timer then you will be Concorded also, but that is a very rare occurrence by comparison to highsec gained criminal timers.

Concord kills gankers. They don't kill other people. It would be great if they did.

In the last 7 days, Concord has killed 4551 ships (as of right now). They are all pilots in ships, in highsec, carrying a criminal timer for agressing someone illegally.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2015-06-13 08:48:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Aza Ebanu
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:

Well how do we know those are gankers though?
let say a quarterof the 300+ ships were gank related losses, where does the other three quarters come from?

What?

Who does Concord kill?

Are you saying Concord kills lots of people other than gankers?

If you jump from lowsec into highsec while carrying a criminal Timer then you will be Concorded also, but that is a very rare occurrence.

Concord kills gankers. They don't kill other people. It would be great if they did.

In the last 7 days, Concord has killed 4551 ships (as of right now). They are all pilots in ships, in highsec, carrying a criminal timer for agressing someone illegally.

Ship destroyed /= gank related kill (Concord response)
There could be ships lost from missions, wardecs, self destructs, all kinds of ship losses.

EDIT: thought of another one, duels.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#28 - 2015-06-13 08:55:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Ship destroyed /= gank related kill

What?

Concord kills a ship only if a criminal is sitting in it. so aside from a small number of people who jump into highsec having gained a criminal timer in lowsec (it's very embarrassing to make your fleet do when you are the FC), all losses to Concord are highsec criminals.

So it's good to see gankers get recognition for the danger they face, since those losses are part of the stats that show how dangerous highsec is. Good that the OP acknowledges that ganking is not risk free pvp and is really quite dangerous.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2015-06-13 18:30:57 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Ship destroyed /= gank related kill

What?

Concord kills a ship only if a criminal is sitting in it. so aside from a small number of people who jump into highsec having gained a criminal timer in lowsec (it's very embarrassing to make your fleet do when you are the FC), all losses to Concord are highsec criminals.

So it's good to see gankers get recognition for the danger they face, since those losses are part of the stats that show how dangerous highsec is. Good that the OP acknowledges that ganking is not risk free pvp and is really quite dangerous.

Well ganking is risk free PVP in the other areas like, low sec and null too. The map also shows the activity in those areas, but I think most newer players will be interested to see how safe null sec appears to be. I think it will help players get a "heads up" for the most dangerous systems in EVE Online.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#30 - 2015-06-13 18:49:46 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
I invite all players to open their maps and view a few statistics. Go to the "E" at the top of your in-game toolbar. Click on the map icon without the Beta symbol. On the stars tab on the World map window, click on statistics.

No select the pirate/police ships destroyed in the last 24 hours. This statistic will show how many NPCs have been blown up in the last 24 hours. It is important because the ships that blow up in null are obviously not police and have some sort of bounty attached. It could also mean someone was running missions and had a faction mission, but obviously not in the most remote parts of null.

Next choose the statistic for "ships destroyed in the last 24 hours". This will show the player ships that have been destroyed in the last 24 hours.

There, now you have data for talking points when discussing the various sec zones in EVE Online.For example, someone could say that high sec trade hubs are more dangerous than most null sec systems and be correct according to the data.

If you're ok with incomplete data, sure.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2015-06-13 18:52:24 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
I invite all players to open their maps and view a few statistics. Go to the "E" at the top of your in-game toolbar. Click on the map icon without the Beta symbol. On the stars tab on the World map window, click on statistics.

No select the pirate/police ships destroyed in the last 24 hours. This statistic will show how many NPCs have been blown up in the last 24 hours. It is important because the ships that blow up in null are obviously not police and have some sort of bounty attached. It could also mean someone was running missions and had a faction mission, but obviously not in the most remote parts of null.

Next choose the statistic for "ships destroyed in the last 24 hours". This will show the player ships that have been destroyed in the last 24 hours.

There, now you have data for talking points when discussing the various sec zones in EVE Online.For example, someone could say that high sec trade hubs are more dangerous than most null sec systems and be correct according to the data.

If you're ok with incomplete data, sure.

All kinds of important decisions are made with incomplete data. All you need is sufficient data for it to be effective. The in game map provides sufficient data for all sorts decisions.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#32 - 2015-06-13 19:57:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Ship destroyed /= gank related kill (Concord response)

...Concord kills a ship only if a criminal is sitting in it. so aside from a small number of people who jump into highsec having gained a criminal timer in lowsec (it's very embarrassing to make your fleet do when you are the FC), all losses to Concord are highsec criminals...

Well ganking is risk free PVP in the other areas like, low sec and null too. The map also shows the activity in those areas, but I think most newer players will be interested to see how safe null sec appears to be. I think it will help players get a "heads up" for the most dangerous systems in EVE Online.

Suicide ganking (Concord response) only exists in highsec.

Aside from that, if you're so certain that highsec is where the most danger is, let's take a challenge together. I'll send you an evemail so we keep the details private and no one can set a trap for us.

Let's both jump in a blingy ship each and then fly from the most dangerous highsec system by those stats (Jita) to the most dangerous nullsec system. That's usually YZ-LQL in Fountain, which happens to be NPC null surrounded by sov, so we'll be able to dock if we get there. We'll try to make the route involve an equal number of highsec (dangerous) and nullsec (safe) systems and then just see what happens.

I'm happy to do that and If we make it out of highsec, we should be safe right?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#33 - 2015-06-13 20:03:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
I invite all players to open their maps and view a few statistics. Go to the "E" at the top of your in-game toolbar. Click on the map icon without the Beta symbol. On the stars tab on the World map window, click on statistics.

No select the pirate/police ships destroyed in the last 24 hours. This statistic will show how many NPCs have been blown up in the last 24 hours. It is important because the ships that blow up in null are obviously not police and have some sort of bounty attached. It could also mean someone was running missions and had a faction mission, but obviously not in the most remote parts of null.

Next choose the statistic for "ships destroyed in the last 24 hours". This will show the player ships that have been destroyed in the last 24 hours.

There, now you have data for talking points when discussing the various sec zones in EVE Online.For example, someone could say that high sec trade hubs are more dangerous than most null sec systems and be correct according to the data.

If you're ok with incomplete data, sure.

All kinds of important decisions are made with incomplete data. All you need is sufficient data for it to be effective. The in game map provides sufficient data for all sorts decisions.

Ok I'll correct myself. If you like insufficient data then.

"Look there's a cloud in the sky. I predict there will be a category 3 hurricane tonight, with a moderate chance of holy rapture"

A less ridiculous comparison: check the NPC kill stats again.

By comparison highsec has much more than most of null. I must therefore conclude that highsec ratting is far more superior than null.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2015-06-13 20:03:26 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Ship destroyed /= gank related kill (Concord response)

...Concord kills a ship only if a criminal is sitting in it. so aside from a small number of people who jump into highsec having gained a criminal timer in lowsec (it's very embarrassing to make your fleet do when you are the FC), all losses to Concord are highsec criminals...

Well ganking is risk free PVP in the other areas like, low sec and null too. The map also shows the activity in those areas, but I think most newer players will be interested to see how safe null sec appears to be. I think it will help players get a "heads up" for the most dangerous systems in EVE Online.

Suicide ganking (Concord response) only exists in highsec.

Aside from that, if you're so certain that highsec is where the most danger is, let's take a challenge together. I'll send you an evemail so we keep the details private and no one can set a trap for us.

Let's both jump in a blingy ship each and then fly from the most dangerous highsec system by those stats (Jita) to the most dangerous nullsec system. That's usually YZ-LQL in Fountain, which happens to be NPC null surrounded by sov, so we'll be able to dock if we get there. We'll try to make the route involve an equal number of highsec (dangerous) and nullsec (safe) systems and then just see what happens.

I'm happy to do that and If we make it out of highsec, we should be safe right?

Oh I've lived out in Null sec. I know how safe it can be. You don't get to kill over 5k pirate faction ships, with only ~20 players in the system, if it is "dangerous". Concord can contribute to ship loss, but the data doesn't say all high sec and low sec ship losses are from Concord.

Do you get killed by Concord often or something? Pirate
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#35 - 2015-06-13 20:03:31 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:

There, now you have data for talking points when discussing the various sec zones in EVE Online.For example, someone could say that high sec trade hubs are more dangerous than most null sec systems and be correct according to the data.


Not even according to the data, unless they've dedicated themselves to being fundamentally dishonest.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2015-06-13 20:04:40 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
I invite all players to open their maps and view a few statistics. Go to the "E" at the top of your in-game toolbar. Click on the map icon without the Beta symbol. On the stars tab on the World map window, click on statistics.

No select the pirate/police ships destroyed in the last 24 hours. This statistic will show how many NPCs have been blown up in the last 24 hours. It is important because the ships that blow up in null are obviously not police and have some sort of bounty attached. It could also mean someone was running missions and had a faction mission, but obviously not in the most remote parts of null.

Next choose the statistic for "ships destroyed in the last 24 hours". This will show the player ships that have been destroyed in the last 24 hours.

There, now you have data for talking points when discussing the various sec zones in EVE Online.For example, someone could say that high sec trade hubs are more dangerous than most null sec systems and be correct according to the data.

If you're ok with incomplete data, sure.

All kinds of important decisions are made with incomplete data. All you need is sufficient data for it to be effective. The in game map provides sufficient data for all sorts decisions.

Ok I'll correct myself. If you like insufficient data then.

"Look there's a cloud in the sky. I predict there will be a category 3 hurricane tonight, with a moderate chance of holy rapture"

Not even close. It's more like News says big storm is headed east. I'm 20 miles east of said location. I might get some rain.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2015-06-13 20:05:34 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:

There, now you have data for talking points when discussing the various sec zones in EVE Online.For example, someone could say that high sec trade hubs are more dangerous than most null sec systems and be correct according to the data.


Not even according to the data, unless they've dedicated themselves to being fundamentally dishonest.


Data is neutral. It can not lie. It can be misinterpreted though.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#38 - 2015-06-13 20:09:22 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:

There, now you have data for talking points when discussing the various sec zones in EVE Online.For example, someone could say that high sec trade hubs are more dangerous than most null sec systems and be correct according to the data.


Not even according to the data, unless they've dedicated themselves to being fundamentally dishonest.


Data is neutral. It can not lie. It can be misinterpreted though.

Dear god the irony.

Ok, you got me. I bit.

9/10
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#39 - 2015-06-13 20:09:24 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:

There, now you have data for talking points when discussing the various sec zones in EVE Online.For example, someone could say that high sec trade hubs are more dangerous than most null sec systems and be correct according to the data.


Not even according to the data, unless they've dedicated themselves to being fundamentally dishonest.


Data is neutral. It can not lie. It can be misinterpreted though.


The "data" is not even remotely in context. Someone could say, based on that, that trade hubs are "more dangerous", but they'd still be wrong, because they don't know all of it.

As was pointed out to you earlier in the thread, those numbers take into account losses involving Concord, which makes the data rather invalid for the point you were trying to make. And again, as was mentioned earlier, Concord kills more than anything else in the game the vast majority of days. Only on days like Titanomachy are they dethroned from the top spot.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#40 - 2015-06-13 20:09:27 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Oh I've lived out in Null sec. I know how safe it can be. You don't get to kill over 5k pirate faction ships, with only ~20 players in the system, if it is "dangerous". Concord can contribute to ship loss, but the data doesn't say all high sec and low sec ship losses are from Concord.

Do you get killed by Concord often or something? Pirate

Great, you'll be up for the challenge then?

No, the data is not representing only Concord losses, though I'm confused as to what Concord losses in lowsec you are referring to?

As to me, you can check my killboard easily to see if I am ever killed by Concord. I don't play in highsec, so the answer is no, but the evidence is easy to look at.