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[CLRGY] The Amarr People are justified in the Reclaiming.

Author
Miyamoto Takedi
Perkone
Caldari State
#41 - 2015-06-11 16:48:16 UTC
Kontrahage wrote:

my own people, the Achura, have been searching for HIM for millennia.
The reclaiming of the Caldari will be when they come asking for it.


Speak for yourself, not for the Achuran people.
The Creator is not the Amarrian deity, nor will he ever be so.
Silvox Lunae
Perkone
Caldari State
#42 - 2015-06-11 19:26:27 UTC
Kontrahage wrote:

I am a reclaimed Caldari and I hope that some day all of my people will return to HIS grace.
Different people need different ways of reclaiming though and while the Minmatar seem to require a strong hand to guide them to righteousness. The way to the Caldari heart has been opend through centuries of commerce and exchange with the Khanid and
my own people, the Achura, have been searching for HIM for millennia.
The reclaiming of the Caldari will be when they come asking for it.



Do not presume to speak for the Achuran in claiming we seek the Amarrian god. Our faith is not found through the piety enforced by Amarrian beliefs.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#43 - 2015-06-11 19:38:08 UTC
Pardon me for asking but... Are you sure that the Pax Amarria is not recorded in Scripture ?
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#44 - 2015-06-11 21:24:30 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Pardon me for asking but... Are you sure that the Pax Amarria is not recorded in Scripture ?


I'm sure it would have been a major announcement if the Theology Council had made a ruling on its inclusion.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#45 - 2015-06-11 21:34:48 UTC
(( I think I will bow out of this, I shouldn't have entered into it to begin with, since not enough OOC info on what should be obvious to our characters here ))
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#46 - 2015-06-11 22:15:29 UTC
Kontrahage wrote:
I am a reclaimed Caldari and I hope that some day all of my people will return to HIS grace.


With all the respect possible, you are no longer Caldari. Caldari isn't an address or a race or a genetic heritage it is a cultural identity. By foreswearing the Way you have ceased to be Caldari and are now an Achuran who worships the Amarrian faith.

You are a reclaimed former-Caldari.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Kontrahage
Perkone
Caldari State
#47 - 2015-06-11 22:36:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kontrahage
Miyamoto Takedi wrote:
Kontrahage wrote:

my own people, the Achura, have been searching for HIM for millennia.
The reclaiming of the Caldari will be when they come asking for it.


Speak for yourself, not for the Achuran people.
The Creator is not the Amarrian deity, nor will he ever be so.


Silvox Lunae wrote:
Kontrahage wrote:

I am a reclaimed Caldari and I hope that some day all of my people will return to HIS grace.
Different people need different ways of reclaiming though and while the Minmatar seem to require a strong hand to guide them to righteousness. The way to the Caldari heart has been opend through centuries of commerce and exchange with the Khanid and
my own people, the Achura, have been searching for HIM for millennia.
The reclaiming of the Caldari will be when they come asking for it.



Do not presume to speak for the Achuran in claiming we seek the Amarrian god. Our faith is not found through the piety enforced by Amarrian beliefs.


I claim not that my conclusion is shared by the entirety of our people, merely the struggle which I hope you won't dispute.
We go into the world looking beyond our material state. Searching for answers, reasons and harmony.
To me personally all these things are united in God. Hence my expression that we were all searching for HIM.


To mr Miyamoto:
Either he is he or he is not he. If he is he, he has always been he. If he is not he, he will never be he.
I believe he is he. You believe he is not he. None of us knows.

To mr Lunae:
In what exactly do you have faith and how do you find it?
Also I assume you speak for youself and not for the entirety of our people just as I speak for myself, except for
my observation concerning our common spiritual struggle.

To everyone:
Please do not try to find offense in my words for none is meant.
Discussions of weltanschauung tend to be taken personally.
If you conceive an interpretation of my words that does not offend you, expect it
to be the one intended.
Miyamoto Takedi
Perkone
Caldari State
#48 - 2015-06-12 08:16:29 UTC
Kontrahage wrote:

I claim not that my conclusion is shared by the entirety of our people, merely the struggle which I hope you won't dispute.
We go into the world looking beyond our material state. Searching for answers, reasons and harmony.
To me personally all these things are united in God. Hence my expression that we were all searching for HIM.




Once again, you take your personal choice and search, and then claim that all of Achur shares in your belief.
You, personally, may have found your own theological home away from the Creator's grace, however, you presume too much by claiming that ALL share in this.
My people, We of Achur, in general have far more in common with those who follow Maker and Wind, than God and Empress.

Clarity is important in these matters, lest your words confuse the matter for any who do not know our ways.
Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#49 - 2015-06-12 11:25:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Utari Onzo
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Kontrahage wrote:
I am a reclaimed Caldari and I hope that some day all of my people will return to HIS grace.


With all the respect possible, you are no longer Caldari. Caldari isn't an address or a race or a genetic heritage it is a cultural identity. By foreswearing the Way you have ceased to be Caldari and are now an Achuran who worships the Amarrian faith.

You are a reclaimed former-Caldari.



This is the stance I take. I am not Caldari, truthly I probably never was as while raised in the State I always embraced the faith of my parents.

On to the subject at hand, it seems to me that because of the similarities between the Maker and the Faith, it appeals to a lot of former Caldari. I have flown with a number of fellow reclaimed Civire, Deteis and Achur and personally look forward to flying with more.

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"

Kontrahage
Perkone
Caldari State
#50 - 2015-06-12 12:48:35 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Kontrahage wrote:
I am a reclaimed Caldari and I hope that some day all of my people will return to HIS grace.


With all the respect possible, you are no longer Caldari. Caldari isn't an address or a race or a genetic heritage it is a cultural identity. By foreswearing the Way you have ceased to be Caldari and are now an Achuran who worships the Amarrian faith.

You are a reclaimed former-Caldari.


looking at all the different peoples within the state it is difficult for me to see Caldari as one uniform culture.
The Civire and Deteis share little with the Achur.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#51 - 2015-06-12 14:24:24 UTC
Kontrahage wrote:
looking at all the different peoples within the state it is difficult for me to see Caldari as one uniform culture.
The Civire and Deteis share little with the Achur.

That's natural, being as they literally come from different worlds.

It may be more accurate to say that the Caldari are a single culture divided into two uniform subcultures (and dead-set on keeping it that way): Civire and Deteis. Immigrants and Caldari-acculturated Achura make up a sort of gray area in the margins, embracing (as is required) the overarching Caldari culture without being really culturally attached to either bloodline.

The Achura still following their ancestors' ways on our homeworld are a client people to the Caldari, and culturally distinct.

Probably the most major thing the Achura share with the Caldari is our faith, which the Caldari recognize as another form of their Way of the Winds. We take it in somewhat different directions (lots of them), but the same principles are in play.

We also have a few things in common with at least some versions of the Amarrian faith, but the largest of those is the sense that the universe is a wonder to be explored.

The Amarrian society and faith (they're hard to distinguish) are impressive in a lot of ways, and I can see why an Achur looking for a path of order and moral clarity might be attracted to them. ... but while the Achura are forever in search of greater clarity and self-knowledge, it's a private journey on paths leading many places.

I, too, have spent time among the Amarr. There are many Amarr I'm very fond of. I'm glad you've found a place there, and wish you much happiness.

But we all have our own paths. And while your path may have led you to the Amarr, that does not mean that the rest of us should follow.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#52 - 2015-06-12 14:59:17 UTC
Kontrahage wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Kontrahage wrote:
I am a reclaimed Caldari and I hope that some day all of my people will return to HIS grace.


With all the respect possible, you are no longer Caldari. Caldari isn't an address or a race or a genetic heritage it is a cultural identity. By foreswearing the Way you have ceased to be Caldari and are now an Achuran who worships the Amarrian faith.

You are a reclaimed former-Caldari.


looking at all the different peoples within the state it is difficult for me to see Caldari as one uniform culture.


Again, with all respect, that's probably one of the reasons why you couldn't adhere to the Way and ceased to be Caldari.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#53 - 2015-06-13 19:20:38 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Again, with all respect, that's probably one of the reasons why you couldn't adhere to the Way and ceased to be Caldari.

Firstly, I won’t it understood I don’t’ have, excuse the expression, a dog in this hunt.

Secondly I am not trying to be coy or start an argument.

But I find your logic most interesting indeed.

I think it warrants further consideration.

If this is true then, all of those who follow you’re… “way” are Caldari?
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#54 - 2015-06-14 01:26:14 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Again, with all respect, that's probably one of the reasons why you couldn't adhere to the Way and ceased to be Caldari.

Firstly, I won’t it understood I don’t’ have, excuse the expression, a dog in this hunt.

Secondly I am not trying to be coy or start an argument.

But I find your logic most interesting indeed.

I think it warrants further consideration.

If this is true then, all of those who follow you’re… “way” are Caldari?

It's not ... quite that simple, I don't think. Following the Way doesn't necessarily make you Caldari, but it's not something you can reject outright and retain a Caldari identity.

If I remember, the Way of the Winds, as a religion, isn't actively practiced by all Caldari, but it's the most widespread religion in the State and is deeply entangled in Caldari culture. Its philosophical teachings are hard to distinguish from Caldari culture at all.

A Caldari who doesn't literally believe in nature or ancestor spirits is nothing unusual. A Caldari who rejects them for the sake of a foreign god is ... kind of another matter.

(Achura like me get a sort-of pass: our faith is recognized as another version of the Way, but we aren't recognized as proper Caldari unless we convert entirely to the Caldari culture. A lot of us sort of switch back after becoming capsuleers, but no one seems to mind very much, or at least very loudly-- the difference isn't major enough to make a big deal out of.)

Pilot Kontrahage is Amarr. He has roots in the State, but that is his identity, now.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#55 - 2015-06-14 02:06:31 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Again, with all respect, that's probably one of the reasons why you couldn't adhere to the Way and ceased to be Caldari.

Firstly, I won’t it understood I don’t’ have, excuse the expression, a dog in this hunt.

Secondly I am not trying to be coy or start an argument.

But I find your logic most interesting indeed.

I think it warrants further consideration.

If this is true then, all of those who follow you’re… “way” are Caldari?


Everyone who follows the Caldari Way is Caldari? Yes.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#56 - 2015-06-14 04:23:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Everyone who follows the Caldari Way is Caldari? Yes.

Is it really so simple? ... maybe I just have an Achur perspective on this question.

The Achur faith is recognized as a form of the Way, but the Achura are a client people-- not Caldari, not unless we conform to the Caldari culture.

Edit:

Pieter, I can't really speak from personal knowledge on this anymore (though presumably I once could), but ... do you know how thoroughly an immigrant has to acculturate to be considered officially Caldari? You have to not only adopt the Caldari culture, but totally abandon your old one.

We're talking inspections by corporate naturalization officers examining whether your pantry has only the right kinds of food, and none of the wrong kinds. I'm not sure how I learned that, but ... probably personal experience.

Following the Way may be enough for you, but, respectfully, either the Caldari Way is dreadfully exclusive or it seems like there's more to it.
Miyamoto Takedi
Perkone
Caldari State
#57 - 2015-06-14 07:10:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Miyamoto Takedi
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Everyone who follows the Caldari Way is Caldari? Yes.

Is it really so simple? ... maybe I just have an Achur perspective on this question.

The Achur faith is recognized as a form of the Way, but the Achura are a client people-- not Caldari, not unless we conform to the Caldari culture.

Edit:

Pieter, I can't really speak from personal knowledge on this anymore (though presumably I once could), but ... do you know how thoroughly an immigrant has to acculturate to be considered officially Caldari? You have to not only adopt the Caldari culture, but totally abandon your old one.

We're talking inspections by corporate naturalization officers examining whether your pantry has only the right kinds of food, and none of the wrong kinds. I'm not sure how I learned that, but ... probably personal experience.

Following the Way may be enough for you, but, respectfully, either the Caldari Way is dreadfully exclusive or it seems like there's more to it.



I have more than touched upon this is an older thread.
For the entire time our cultures have been in contact, the Caldari, a larger and more technologically advanced culture have been attempting a state mandated program of cultural cleansing against the Achuran people.
This is exactly the act and attitude they began a two century war over against the Gallente.

Such hypocrisy seems to be an ingrained part of the state mentality.

Edit:
While it may be claimed that it is an individual Achuran's choice as to whether they join the state, it should be understood that choosing otherwise means that we are kept to the Achuran 'districts' upon our own homeworld, and afforded none of the technological benefits the Caldari people could easily have freely offered.
In many ways this is far worse than the initial cause of secession within Luminaire, as the Gallente had freely shared their technologies with the Caldari and in doing so had empowered the Caldari people to even seek secession.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#58 - 2015-06-14 07:51:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Perhaps I'm the wrong one to ask about this as I haven't studied it. I can usually tell a Caldari by the way their clothes smell. The way they hold their head. Their body language when they greet a friend or a stranger. The way they react to certain sights or sounds. The word they hiss under their breath when they stumble on a loose hatch coaming.

And the Achur? I am not used to this meek minority race you describe. I grew up Suvee and Achur were virtually a plurality in my orbital.I was a capsuleer before I encountered an Achur with a giant chip on their shoulder. Apparently there's still work to do there.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Miyamoto Takedi
Perkone
Caldari State
#59 - 2015-06-14 08:44:39 UTC
'A giant chip on their shoulder?'

Please elaborate upon that statement Pieter.

Could it be that you only met those Achurans who had been subsumed by Suvee and the greater Caldari culture prior to becoming a capsuleer?

Personally, I simply question the mindset that any outside interference in Caldari culture is to be met with stoic resistance and violence, while Caldari interference in Achuran culture is required for us to co-exist.

From our side it seems very much like this :

"The Gallente people did something that we, the Caldari, did not like, so we chose to secede from the federation, at the same time, we were, and have continued to do, the same thing to the people of Achur, but that is fine, because it is us doing it to someone else."
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#60 - 2015-06-14 15:33:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Mr. Takedi:

With respect, the Achura enjoy, effectively, protected status on our homeworld. We have self-rule under the Elder Visionaries, and isolated Achur monasteries can be found even in the Federation.

We are not asked to submit our internal matters to State review. Nor, critically, are we required to put our internal issues up for a vote.

If anything, what's been done to us is the opposite of what happened to the Caldari: we lost our major cities when the Caldari uplifted (not to be confused with the Sansha practice) our pre-industrial culture, but the rest of the planet is a cultural preserve. Rather than saying we can do as we like, but making us participate on their terms in a majority rule system where we will never be the majority, the Caldari actually let us do as we like within our own domain.

Which, I should stress, is the majority of the planet.

They do ask us to acculturate if we're to take advantage of certain programs only offered to State citizens, such as capsuleer training. Frankly, that seems fair enough.

Now, it is true that we're a small people living in the shadow (and at the sufferance) of a great power. It shields us, but it doesn't really share its toys or pretend we're its equal, and "power" isn't something we have much of.

But ... here's a question: in a world like this, is power really so desirable?

There's a rare artifact that pilots sometimes find, an antique brush from old Achura, before the Caldari, used for signing documents of military surrender. The bristles were made from the eyelashes of the defeated, plucked from their living eyelids while they screamed.

We may live in a cultural preserve, but we have self-rule and peace, and we're free to explore the universe. It's not a position of strength, but ... for all our philosophy and love of learning, it doesn't seem to me like we handle power better than anyone else does.