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Reasons for/against WiS (Discussion)

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Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2015-06-10 16:06:13 UTC

Jenn, stop spreading your lies. Tupac and Biggy aren't dead.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Commissar Kate
Kesukka
#82 - 2015-06-10 16:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Commissar Kate
Vincent Athena wrote:
Oddly, the last WiS related thread was titled "drinking in stations". It was a fairly popular thread, with quite a bit of support. I think we need "Drinking and gambling in stations." It would not allow you to shoot other players, but it would be funny to see someone gamble away their Titian.


lol, The point of that thread was to have some fun and to poke fun at another WiS thread more than anything else.

But I'm happy that someone remembered it!

-k8

My Fanclub
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#83 - 2015-06-10 16:13:37 UTC
WiS could add gameplay elements that people might use, but not quite how they think.

If ccp was to really redo walking in stations, they need to kill incarnia and rebuild ambulation. If you have no idea what ambulation was, try and find the presentation from fan fest 2007.

But for now, wis is dead, untill space gets stable, because lets face it, it will never be fixed.

I still want ccp to do the 2014 vision, and combine all games into one platform, with easy of switching between them, to compete with other games that are coming. and no, not just Scam citizen. As i said, ccp needs to make the eve player care, becuase if we do, even a ****** ccp game could succeed.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#84 - 2015-06-10 16:32:20 UTC
Commissar Kate wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Oddly, the last WiS related thread was titled "drinking in stations". It was a fairly popular thread, with quite a bit of support. I think we need "Drinking and gambling in stations." It would not allow you to shoot other players, but it would be funny to see someone gamble away their Titian.


lol, The point of that thread was to have some fun and to poke fun at another WiS thread more than anything else.

But I'm happy that someone remembered it!

The thing is, it actually showed the path to having some content in WiS, content that links to the rest of the game. That's what is needed to have a viable reason to get WiS fixed and completed.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#85 - 2015-06-10 16:45:37 UTC
Tippia wrote:
GankYou wrote:
Explain.

What interaction between several players in the same room available at any point? I was AFK then. Smile

If you watch the old 2008 presentations (here, here, and here), you'll notice that the environments are more complex and expansive and — most importantly — contain several avatars at once. How well that would scale with actual players controlling them is up for grabs, as would the issue of having everyone in the same place at the same time, but the demo allowed for something the Incarna engine simply could not do at launch: run multiple avatars in one scene.

The hands-on demo that we were allowed to play with at FF2008 was, if not spectacularly fast, then at least in working order in this one crucial regard. The rest, as you say, can be done with some intelligent form of instancing (which matters less in the type of environment WiS was supposed to offer, as opposed to open space).

Later peeks at WoD suggested that they might have overcome that, but by then it was too late.


I'll watch the presentations later, but it looks like they were done on the old avatar engine.

There's also no need to upvote your own posts with alts. Smile

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#86 - 2015-06-10 16:54:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
GankYou wrote:
I'll watch the presentations later, but it looks like they were done on the old avatar engine.
Of course. That was before the infinite rewrite culture took hold, and when what was available was good enough (but “good enough” was itself not good enough for release…). I can't quite remember if the idea of Carbon code sharing had come up by then, but it's entirely possible that its casual-interaction style turned out to be unsuited for the kind of core engine role that was required for WoD.

Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP has been "fixing the core game" now for several years. The result? Concurrent user count is typically lower than just after Incarna.

It has not worked. CCP needs some balance here. WiS is an incomplete, broken feature. Just like all other incomplete, broken features, it needs to be fixed and completed in parallel with the other work.
It's highly questionable if an increased WiS focus would have altered that development. The main problem with “completing” WiS is that it has no clear end-state. It has no direction to go. They could certainly spend time tinkering with the engine, but to do what? After 2008, they never really managed to formulate any kind of purpose for this high-cost feature. The best they had was the idea of EVA exploration, but that's such a minute use case that it would hardly have warranted the kind of investment needed, even if WiS had not been killed off.

Ultimately, it's this combination of rudderlesness and undefined purpose that brought all branches of ambulation to a sudden halt.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#87 - 2015-06-10 17:04:14 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP has been "fixing the core game" now for several years. The result? Concurrent user count is typically lower than just after Incarna.


I don't know why people stick on this, but I would surmise that these were the same people who believed that "EVE Online has 500,000 "players" when CCP kept saying that in 2012.

No one outside of CCP know how many real people play (and even they might not know), 'concurrent user count" doesn't count users it count logged on accounts, and CCP made a whole bunch of changes that made Alts less necessary (like multiple character training) and less useful (jump fatigue nerfing individual player independence making cyno alts redundant). Add to that people shedding accounts as PLEX rise and you get a picture that CCPs old statement of "2.2 alts per player" probably decreased.

For all anyone outside of CCP knows, the amount of 'real players' of EVE online could have gone up (probably hasn't), but the fact is we don't and can't know, concurrent user count tells us very little.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#88 - 2015-06-10 17:05:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Sibyyl wrote:

Jenn, stop spreading your lies. Tupac and Biggy aren't dead.



I saw Tupac on 42nd street selling Biggie T-Shirts 2 for 10 dollars!Twisted
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#89 - 2015-06-10 18:03:35 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP has been "fixing the core game" now for several years. The result? Concurrent user count is typically lower than just after Incarna.


I don't know why people stick on this, but I would surmise that these were the same people who believed that "EVE Online has 500,000 "players" when CCP kept saying that in 2012.

No one outside of CCP know how many real people play (and even they might not know), 'concurrent user count" doesn't count users it count logged on accounts, and CCP made a whole bunch of changes that made Alts less necessary (like multiple character training) and less useful (jump fatigue nerfing individual player independence making cyno alts redundant). Add to that people shedding accounts as PLEX rise and you get a picture that CCPs old statement of "2.2 alts per player" probably decreased.

For all anyone outside of CCP knows, the amount of 'real players' of EVE online could have gone up (probably hasn't), but the fact is we don't and can't know, concurrent user count tells us very little.



about all we know form someone who did an artical is ccp did shead some money last year, there rev was down i think 5m for the year or soemthing

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Memphis Baas
#90 - 2015-06-10 18:13:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
Jenn aSide wrote:
Chribba's eve-offline.net is useless, might as well turn it off.


For extreme sarcasm.
Pops Tickle
Tickle Industries
#91 - 2015-06-10 18:17:19 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
For all anyone outside of CCP knows, the amount of 'real players' of EVE online could have gone up (probably hasn't), but the fact is we don't and can't know, concurrent user count tells us very little.


Chribba's eve-offline.net is useless, might as well turn it off.
On the contrary. It is extremely useful to determine if there are any server-side issues. It might lack accuracy regarding the server's population, but your statement was not limited to that.

CCP Rise wrote:

"We have tried and tried to validate the myth that griefing has a pronounced affect on new players - we have failed."

Source
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#92 - 2015-06-10 18:42:17 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP has been "fixing the core game" now for several years. The result? Concurrent user count is typically lower than just after Incarna.


I don't know why people stick on this, but I would surmise that these were the same people who believed that "EVE Online has 500,000 "players" when CCP kept saying that in 2012.

No one outside of CCP know how many real people play (and even they might not know), 'concurrent user count" doesn't count users it count logged on accounts, and CCP made a whole bunch of changes that made Alts less necessary (like multiple character training) and less useful (jump fatigue nerfing individual player independence making cyno alts redundant). Add to that people shedding accounts as PLEX rise and you get a picture that CCPs old statement of "2.2 alts per player" probably decreased.

For all anyone outside of CCP knows, the amount of 'real players' of EVE online could have gone up (probably hasn't), but the fact is we don't and can't know, concurrent user count tells us very little.



about all we know form someone who did an artical is ccp did shead some money last year, there rev was down i think 5m for the year or soemthing


That suggests CCP received less revenue, but tells us nothing about how many play at any given time, how many people shed alt accounts due to changes, how many fewer store purchases there were etc. Could mean a lot of things, only one of which is fewer actual players.
raven666wings
Cyber Chaos Crew
#93 - 2015-06-10 18:58:29 UTC  |  Edited by: raven666wings
Why can't CCP just give us some WiS little things? Each time I walk in station I want to see face and body of other enemies, but right now I have to click each one on the guest list and then "show portrait" or "show full body".

This is too boring. It would be easier if we just had a special window where we could browse through all the characters' bodies and clothes instantly, even maybe undress them some of the clothing pieces if we think they look better that way.

There's so many capsuleers out there that lack a sense of style and wear so many ratchet threads. Maybe add a cool flashy ambient in the "show full body" scene too because that grey background gets old really fast and doesnt help the mood.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#94 - 2015-06-10 19:06:08 UTC
raven666wings wrote:
Why can't CCP just give us some WiS little things?

[…]

maybe undress them some of the clothing pieces
That's why.

Also, because there are no “little things” that sit in the way of making it a good and fully-functioning feature. There's no point in adding little things if there is no thing there to add them to. It's a non-system.

Oh, and it's 50/50 chance that it has joined the pantheon of legacy code that no-one knows how to work with any more.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#95 - 2015-06-10 19:16:10 UTC
Oh look, it's this thread again.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#96 - 2015-06-10 19:18:59 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Oh look, it's this thread again.


The content might be the same, but the author isn't, he was asking an honest question.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#97 - 2015-06-10 19:29:42 UTC
Tippia wrote:
raven666wings wrote:
Why can't CCP just give us some WiS little things?

[…]

maybe undress them some of the clothing pieces
That's why.

Also, because there are no “little things” that sit in the way of making it a good and fully-functioning feature. There's no point in adding little things if there is no thing there to add them to. It's a non-system.

Oh, and it's 50/50 chance that it has joined the pantheon of legacy code that no-one knows how to work with any more.



this alone is why if i was hilmar i would of set asides a few devs to start a complete reworking of eve, eve 2, then switch eve over to that when complete. But i'm not ccp ceo. so meh.

the other way is how they are doing it, one toe at a time

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#98 - 2015-06-10 19:32:14 UTC
Tippia wrote:
raven666wings wrote:
Why can't CCP just give us some WiS little things?

[…]

maybe undress them some of the clothing pieces
That's why.

Also, because there are no “little things” that sit in the way of making it a good and fully-functioning feature. There's no point in adding little things if there is no thing there to add them to. It's a non-system.


It looks like a fully-functioning avatar system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iu4iekX3WE

The Door just stays closed. Smile

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
chaos666wraith
Cyber Chaos Crew
#99 - 2015-06-10 19:35:50 UTC  |  Edited by: chaos666wraith
Hello meatbags, I have come once again to remind you what real EVE developers have to say about this matter because your memory seems to have been wiped or corrupted once more:

CCP t0rfifrans wrote:
Saying that EVE is just about spaceships, is a bit like saying that phones should only be about making voice phone calls one on one with other people. Indeed they did start out like that, but as technology evolved, they become something much bigger. We hope you guys stay with us long enough for that dream to materialize.


For future visions please watch this video I have stored in my Solid State Drive.

Be well.

CyberChaosCrewTV

Saying that EVE is just about spaceships, is a bit like saying that phones should only be about making voice phone calls one on one with other people.
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#100 - 2015-06-10 19:47:26 UTC
EVE truly can be that much more - the people responsible know it all too well, they just were AFK for some time. Blink

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components