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eve firepower
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Enya Sparhawk
Black Tea and Talons
#21 - 2015-04-20 19:29:20 UTC
solrac lara wrote:
YuuKnow wrote:
solrac lara wrote:
how powerfulll are the eve ships propulsion engines sorry im not that versed in physics just another lil question titans weight 2 million ton, So how much energy would be needed to move a 2.2million tons object at 80m/s which is the speed that titans normally move.


Its not the regular drive. Its the warp drives. Theoretically nothing can break the speed of light, so to create drives that can do so easily is impossible to apply any RL math to. If a fiction does have 'faster than light' than you can apply any arbitrary formula you want to as the math doesn't exist.

One can either assume that immense energies are involved, or that there's something more elegant at play. Whichever you want. If immense energy's are involved than a society that can harness those type of energies so easily can probably harness them destructively just a easily. For example, the fission bomb proceeded the more sophisticate nuclear propulsion. And mankind has already mastered fusion detonations far before its learned to control them constructively (ie fusion power plants).

Throw in 'stasis webifiers', 'microwarps' and whal-lah, the 'calculations' are whatever you want them to be.

yk

So the fact that they use antimatter generators as something trivial means they can weaponize that kind of stuff too

You're a curious little fellow aren't you?... You certainly ask a lot of questions...
(I hope you're not trying to build one of these things in your basement.)
I think the easiest way to understand most of what he just said is to assume that c or the speed of light is a natural constant (a naturally occurring velocity of an object in space). In the universe, it is the median (further defined by the discovery of a wormhole or EVE Gate). So in terms of energy production by each of the different Empires, enough to create an artificial warp tunnel each time you warp.

Fusion reactor
Antimatter reactor
Graviton reactor
Nuclear reactor

Each of these 'sciences' are only limited in the modern age because of mankind's inability to understand the properties of energy fully, E=Mc2, we get hung up on mass as the absolute, the material (to the scientific mind, as something unmoveable)...

Evolution is transcendence.

Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne

Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad.

Bíonn súil le muir ach ní bhíonn súil le tír.

Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir.

When the lost ships of Greece finally return home...
YuuKnow
The Scope
#22 - 2015-04-21 14:13:50 UTC  |  Edited by: YuuKnow
Arline Kley wrote:
solrac lara wrote:
Well thats not alot how do you calc that


its Energy (J) = 1/2 mass (kg) x acceleration (m/s²)

the maths I posted above are a bit out.. I didn't calc it properly (forgive me its way past midnight here..)

2.0222666667 GWh (gigawatthour) to power an Avatar titan at 80/ms at base weight.


Kinetic Energy (J) = 1/2 mass (kg) x velocity (m/s)^2

mass x acceleration = force, not energy

And remember that Eve ships fly in some sort of drag that don't exist in RL space. [Insert technobabble here].

yk
Cymorn
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#23 - 2015-05-25 14:18:38 UTC
YuuKnow wrote:
Arline Kley wrote:
solrac lara wrote:
Well thats not alot how do you calc that


its Energy (J) = 1/2 mass (kg) x acceleration (m/s²)

the maths I posted above are a bit out.. I didn't calc it properly (forgive me its way past midnight here..)

2.0222666667 GWh (gigawatthour) to power an Avatar titan at 80/ms at base weight.


Kinetic Energy (J) = 1/2 mass (kg) x velocity (m/s)^2

mass x acceleration = force, not energy

And remember that Eve ships fly in some sort of drag that don't exist in RL space. [Insert technobabble here].

yk


It's a bit more complicated than that. If one keeps pouring energy into a system but that system then also remains at equilibrium (an object moving with constant velocity is at an equilibrium of forces) then that energy has to go somewhere. Because the speed is capped, we can assume that some of that power is being siphoned off by the water-like drag persistent through the EVE cluster, in addition to the traditional heating and radiation.
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#24 - 2015-05-25 15:39:40 UTC
Perhaps rather than making our weapons more power dependent for maximum output we found ways to make them far more efficent?

Or perhaps our terms in eve for GJ and such dont mean what they mean to us outside of New Eden (IRL)
It is an alternate universe afterall.

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
solrac lara
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-05-29 16:32:49 UTC
There are no mentions or chronicles that talk abaut eve firepowers anything excluding the titan DD incident. ?
Esna Pitoojee
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#26 - 2015-05-29 20:48:47 UTC
No, unfortunately.

The other night I used a different method to find weapon output: Starting with a known value (the length of a frigate) and from there going to the length of the launchers, the dimensions of the missile in the launchers, the density of the warhead fuel, and then to energy per gram of fuel consumed.

I used the Nova Light missile in these calculations for a couple of reasons: Its warhead uses a mechanic we understand in real life (nuclear reactions), and the full length of the missile can be seen from looking at the launcher.

Based on the numbers I got, the Nova Light Missile has a maximum theoretical yield of 7.14 megatons of TNT. If we assume that weapon damage is a scientific scale - a loose assumption, at best - then this suggests a Nova Torpedo has a yield of around 38.7 megatons, and a Nova Citadel Torpedo a yield of around 172 megatons. The 'Oblivion' Doomsday thus has a theoretical upper yield of 172 gigatons.

However, these calculations were done with an extreme degree of leniency to find an absolute upper theoretical limit, and included several unfeasible or outright impossible assumptions - for instance, that the missile's entire body consisted of nothing but warhead fuel, that the missile's warhead was fueled by liquid Deuterium, and that every gram of fuel in the missile would react perfectly when it detonates. Actual yield is likely to be considerably lower.
solrac lara
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2015-05-29 22:49:10 UTC  |  Edited by: solrac lara
Esna Pitoojee wrote:
No, unfortunately.

The other night I used a different method to find weapon output: Starting with a known value (the length of a frigate) and from there going to the length of the launchers, the dimensions of the missile in the launchers, the density of the warhead fuel, and then to energy per gram of fuel consumed.

I used the Nova Light missile in these calculations for a couple of reasons: Its warhead uses a mechanic we understand in real life (nuclear reactions), and the full length of the missile can be seen from looking at the launcher.

Based on the numbers I got, the Nova Light Missile has a maximum theoretical yield of 7.14 megatons of TNT. If we assume that weapon damage is a scientific scale - a loose assumption, at best - then this suggests a Nova Torpedo has a yield of around 38.7 megatons, and a Nova Citadel Torpedo a yield of around 172 megatons. The 'Oblivion' Doomsday thus has a theoretical upper yield of 172 gigatons.

However, these calculations were done with an extreme degree of leniency to find an absolute upper theoretical limit, and included several unfeasible or outright impossible assumptions - for instance, that the missile's entire body consisted of nothing but warhead fuel, that the missile's warhead was fueled by liquid Deuterium, and that every gram of fuel in the missile would react perfectly when it detonates. Actual yield is likely to be considerably lower.

Could you please make a more realistic estimate this is actually a intresting calc and fits perfectly with whats new eden is capable of.
or do you have the equations it would be really helpful. thanks alot
Esna Pitoojee
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#28 - 2015-05-31 21:44:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Esna Pitoojee
Sure! Here's how I got my original numbers.

I started with a known number, the length of the Kestrel frigate (78 meters). Note that the length on the ingame display window is not accurate; it appears to display the game's collision detection radius rather than the actual ship length. Instead I used the Apocrypha ship chart.

Working from there, I grabbed a screenshot of a Kestrel fitted with Light Missile Launchers and imported it into a CAD program. The image was scaled until the Kestrel fit a line 78m long (from rear thrusters to the tip of the longer 'arm' protruding forward). A second line was then drawn over the length of one of the missile launchers.

Next I imported a screenshot of a light missile launcher in the ingame item viewer. It was scaled until it fit the line I had found in the previous step, at which point I drew lines measuring the diameter and length of an individual light missile. Note that while rear of the missiles cannot be actually seen, the launcher 'cuts off' on the bottom after a certain distance back - meaning they have to fit within that forward area.

The numbers I found for a single light missile were:
Diameter: 0.2393m
Length: 4.0496m

From there I used the volume of a cylinder, (Pi) x(Radius squared)x(Length) and found a volume of 0.1821 m3. This might seem small, but is relatively close to modern mid-size missiles such as the AGM-65 Maverick (0.1760 m3).

Now, the fuel. As I said above, we know the Nova Light Missile carries a 'nuclear' warhead; I assumed this meant fusion rather than the far-less-powerful fission - again, trying to find an upper limit here.

At this point, I made a mistake in my initial calculations: I used a straight D-D fusion reaction for simplicity's sake, as it is much easier to calculate than using the (more potent) Lithium Deuteride fuel that almost all fusion warheads actually use. I will now attempt to rectify this, although it will involve some complicated calculations.

Lithium Deuteride has a density of 820 kg/m3. Working from the above volume, this suggests we will have 149.32 kilograms of warhead fuel. Lithium Deuteride has a molar mass of 8.95 grams/mol, giving us 16,684 moles of fuel to react. Each mole contains 6.02x10^23 molecules to fuse, so altogether we have 1.0x10^28 molecules to react.

According to this site, each lithium atom converted is going to yield around 20 MeV of energy; working from our above number of molecules above, this gives us 2.0x10^29 MeV, equivalent to about 32 petajoules or 7.66 megatons TNT.

Based on the Nova's 83 HP base damage, if we assume damage HP to be a scientific scale than this suggests around 92 kilotons per HP. A Nova torpedo would thus have a yield of around 41.4 megatons, a Nova Citadel torpedo a yield of 166 megatons, and the Doomsday Device a yield of 166 gigatons.

However, there are still three highly unrealistic expectations involved at this point:

1, the entire missile body is nothing but warhead fuel. No space for the rocket motor's fuel, guidance, or electronics is included. In reality, the warhead typically occupies less than 20%, sometimes as low as 10% of a missile body.

2, every molecule of fuel in the warhead reacts completely. I could not find an exact number for percent efficiency of modern nuclear weapons, but older devices were pegged at 25% fuel burned with modern devices being noted as "significantly" more efficient.

3, the entire yield of the weapon is directed solely at the target. Most practical designs for space-based weaponry include some form of shaped charge to direct the bulk of the explosive energy at the target. Sometimes called a "Casaba Howtizer", they can direct up to 50% of the explosive energy in a relatively narrow arc (compared to less than 10% for an unfocused device); see this page.

So! For a more relealistic, but still high-end estimate we will make the following assumptions:
- 40% of the missile body is warhead fuel; the need for a space-consuming trigger explosive has been removed through nanites and spacemagic.
- 70% of the fuel will undergo fusion, trapped inside the body by advanced materials (AKA, more spacemagic).
- 80% of the energy will be directed at a target by some sort of shaped-charge device, again held together by spacemagic.

Under these assumptions, a Nova Light missile will hit its target with around 1.72 megatons (7.15 petajoules) of energy.

Operating under these assumptions, we find a single damage point is equal to around 20.7 kT of energy. A Nova Torpedo can thus be expected to deliver 9.3 megatons of energy, a Nova Citadel torpedo 41.4 megatons, and the doomsday device 41.4 gigatons.

TO MUCH MATH, TL;DR:

Absolute upper limit (pure weapon yield):
Nova Light: 7.66 megatons
Nova Torpedo: 41.4 megatons
Nova Citadel Torpedo: 166 megatons
'Gjallarhorn' Doomsday: 166 gigatons

Feasible, but still high estimate (energy to target):
Nova Light: 1.72 megatons
Nova Torpedo: 9.3 megatons
Nova Citadel Torpedo: 41.4 megatons
'Gjallarhorn' Doomsday: 41.4 gigatons

Note that I do not believe damage HP is actually a reliable method for comparing weapon yields. Actual yield and energy delivered for the larger missiles is likely to be considerably higher; however, it does give us a rough idea of what is considered a useful weapon in New Eden.
solrac lara
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2015-05-31 22:27:45 UTC
Esna Pitoojee wrote:
Sure! Here's how I got my original numbers.

I started with a known number, the length of the Kestrel frigate (78 meters). Note that the length on the ingame display window is not accurate; it appears to display the game's collision detection radius rather than the actual ship length. Instead I used the Apocrypha ship chart.

Working from there, I grabbed a screenshot of a Kestrel fitted with Light Missile Launchers and imported it into a CAD program. The image was scaled until the Kestrel fit a line 78m long (from rear thrusters to the tip of the longer 'arm' protruding forward). A second line was then drawn over the length of one of the missile launchers.

Next I imported a screenshot of a light missile launcher in the ingame item viewer. It was scaled until it fit the line I had found in the previous step, at which point I drew lines measuring the diameter and length of an individual light missile. Note that while rear of the missiles cannot be actually seen, the launcher 'cuts off' on the bottom after a certain distance back - meaning they have to fit within that forward area.

The numbers I found for a single light missile were:
Diameter: 0.2393m
Length: 4.0496m

From there I used the volume of a cylinder, (Pi) x(Radius squared)x(Length) and found a volume of 0.1821 m3. This might seem small, but is relatively close to modern mid-size missiles such as the AGM-65 Maverick (0.1760 m3).

Now, the fuel. As I said above, we know the Nova Light Missile carries a 'nuclear' warhead; I assumed this meant fusion rather than the far-less-powerful fission - again, trying to find an upper limit here.

At this point, I made a mistake in my initial calculations: I used a straight D-D fusion reaction for simplicity's sake, as it is much easier to calculate than using the (more potent) Lithium Deuteride fuel that almost all fusion warheads actually use. I will now attempt to rectify this, although it will involve some complicated calculations.

Lithium Deuteride has a density of 820 kg/m3. Working from the above volume, this suggests we will have 149.32 kilograms of warhead fuel. Lithium Deuteride has a molar mass of 8.95 grams/mol, giving us 16,684 moles of fuel to react. Each mole contains 6.02x10^23 molecules to fuse, so altogether we have 1.0x10^28 molecules to react.

According to this site, each lithium atom converted is going to yield around 20 MeV of energy; working from our above number of molecules above, this gives us 2.0x10^29 MeV, equivalent to about 32 petajoules or 7.66 megatons TNT.

Based on the Nova's 83 HP base damage, if we assume damage HP to be a scientific scale than this suggests around 92 kilotons per HP. A Nova torpedo would thus have a yield of around 41.4 megatons, a Nova Citadel torpedo a yield of 166 megatons, and the Doomsday Device a yield of 166 gigatons.

However, there are still three highly unrealistic expectations involved at this point:

1, the entire missile body is nothing but warhead fuel. No space for the rocket motor's fuel, guidance, or electronics is included. In reality, the warhead typically occupies less than 20%, sometimes as low as 10% of a missile body.

2, every molecule of fuel in the warhead reacts completely. I could not find an exact number for percent efficiency of modern nuclear weapons, but older devices were pegged at 25% fuel burned with modern devices being noted as "significantly" more efficient.

3, the entire yield of the weapon is directed solely at the target. Most practical designs for space-based weaponry include some form of shaped charge to direct the bulk of the explosive energy at the target. Sometimes called a "Casaba Howtizer", they can direct up to 50% of the explosive energy in a relatively narrow arc (compared to less than 10% for an unfocused device); see this page.

So! For a more relealistic, but still high-end estimate we will make the following assumptions:
- 40% of the missile body is warhead fuel; the need for a space-consuming trigger explosive has been removed through nanites and spacemagic.
- 70% of the fuel will undergo fusion, trapped inside the body by advanced materials (AKA, more spacemagic).
- 80% of the energy will be directed at a target by some sort of shaped-charge device, again held together by spacemagic.

Under these assumptions, a Nova Light missile will hit its target with around 1.72 megatons (7.15 petajoules) of energy.

Operating under these assumptions, we find a single damage point is equal to around 20.7 kT of energy. A Nova Torpedo can thus be expected to deliver 9.3 megatons of energy, a Nova Citadel torpedo 41.4 megatons, and the doomsday device 41.4 gigatons.

TO MUCH MATH, TL;DR:

Absolute upper limit (pure weapon yield):
Nova Light: 7.66 megatons
Nova Torpedo: 41.4 megatons
Nova Citadel Torpedo: 166 megatons
'Gjallarhorn' Doomsday: 166 gigatons

Feasible, but still high estimate (energy to target):
Nova Light: 1.72 megatons
Nova Torpedo: 9.3 megatons
Nova Citadel Torpedo: 41.4 megatons
'Gjallarhorn' Doomsday: 41.4 gigatons

Note that I do not believe damage HP is actually a reliable method for comparing weapon yields. Actual yield and energy delivered for the larger missiles is likely to be considerably higher; however, it does give us a rough idea of what is considered a useful weapon in New Eden.

Look like some solid calcs right there :p i make a post in a sci fi technical forum with them i hope you dont mind hehe
solrac lara
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2015-06-08 17:40:05 UTC  |  Edited by: solrac lara
I found achronicle where a capsuleer threatens an entire colony with orbital bombardment.

Quote:
“That sound you’re hearing,” Omvistus replied, “is your planet’s bombardment siren. You’ve probably never had to pay much attention to it in the past, seeing as your world is safely under the jurisdiction of CONCORD, but that is no longer the case.” As he spoke, the back window of the conference room took on a noticeably red tint, saturating the room in crimson light. “What you’re seeing now is the targeting laser used to aim my battleship’s six 425 millimeter railgun turrets. At this altitude, the gravity of your planet will augment the standard launch velocity of each solid projectile to speeds well beyond operational specifications, enough to obliterate anything within half a kilometer of the impact site.” Omvistus’s image grew larger on the screen before he continued.


“Anything between that location and two kilometers from ground zero will suffer a worse fate, as the antimatter suspended in each shell escapes its containment field and expands in a random dispersion pattern, colliding with the ambient normal matter on the ground – buildings, trees, children, everything. Whatever these particles touch will experience matter disassociation on an atomic level as, piece by piece, they are reduced to unidentifiable residual particles.” He paused briefly, and then concluded.


“With a single thought, I can reduce your entire city to a smoldering crater; the boiling wind rushing in to replace the void left behind will be laced with dust particles that were once the bodies of everyone you know and love. Do you understand?”


Its is possible to make a yield based on his statement. ?
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Xenocracy_%28Chronicle%29
According to nukemap a 4 megaton blast would create a fireball with a radius of 2km similar to the area of destruction from the antimatter blast.
Esna Pitoojee
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#31 - 2015-06-09 16:23:23 UTC
There are two reasons why I tend to think this can't be used as a really accurate calculator.

The first - and most important - is that Omvistus is talking out of his rear throughout the entire chronicle. He can't actually bombard the planet; CONCORD doesn't let us. He completely screws up how an antimatter warhead would look. He's bluffing - everything he says and does is meant to intimidate the planetary staff into giving in to him without a fight. So, I take everything he says with a freighter-load of salt.

The second issue is the loose language he uses. Words like "destroyed", "obliterated", "reduced to a crater" are troublesome because they don't actually tell us anything about what really happened. Does that mean things were heated until they vaporized, or merely knocked over by the air pressure shockwave? The difference is highly significant.

With that said, yes - a 4 MT blast would produce a roughly 2 km fireball. Of course, with battleship weapons more likely to be in the 100-400 megaton range, the actual destruction would be considerably higher - the crater itself might reach 2km, while the fireball reaches considerably further.
solrac lara
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2015-06-09 16:29:40 UTC  |  Edited by: solrac lara
Esna Pitoojee wrote:
There are two reasons why I tend to think this can't be used as a really accurate calculator.

The first - and most important - is that Omvistus is talking out of his rear throughout the entire chronicle. He can't actually bombard the planet; CONCORD doesn't let us. He completely screws up how an antimatter warhead would look. He's bluffing - everything he says and does is meant to intimidate the planetary staff into giving in to him without a fight. So, I take everything he says with a freighter-load of salt.

The second issue is the loose language he uses. Words like "destroyed", "obliterated", "reduced to a crater" are troublesome because they don't actually tell us anything about what really happened. Does that mean things were heated until they vaporized, or merely knocked over by the air pressure shockwave? The difference is highly significant.

With that said, yes - a 4 MT blast would produce a roughly 2 km fireball. Of course, with battleship weapons more likely to be in the 100-400 megaton range, the actual destruction would be considerably higher - the crater itself might reach 2km, while the fireball reaches considerably further.


Well when he says
Quote:
“Anything between that location and two kilometers from ground zero will suffer a worse fate, as the antimatter suspended in each shell escapes its containment field and expands in a random dispersion pattern, colliding with the ambient normal matter on the ground – buildings, trees, children, everything. Whatever these particles touch will experience matter disassociation on an atomic level as, piece by piece, they are reduced to unidentifiable residual particles.” He paused briefly, and then concluded.

i think that he is talking abaut vaporization specially when he mentions that they are redused to residual particles shockwaves doesnt atomize people and i think its mentioned in the short story that the planet wasnt protected by concord but maybe i read it wrong.. Also there are some other shows of eve firepower like one ninmatar planet bombed with tachyon laser to the point of being unhabiable with its oceans vaporized the atmosphere messed up and stuff like that.
here is the info abaut the planet https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Starkman_Prime also in the outcast chornicle is mentioned how a 100 miles long canyon was formed during the bombardment.
Then you have the theocracy short story where is briefly mentioned how eanna a ninmatar planet was bombed by again tachyon lasers
here a brief destription of the planet after the bombardment.
Quote:
As seen from the vantage of ships patrolling high above, the swirling cirrus clouds of the planet Eanna still bore long, dark streaks that spanned the width of continents. Speak to me, God. COPYRIGHT © CCP 2006 16 The screen cycled through different views provided by Imperial warships surrounding the former Minmatar world. Approximately twenty-four hours had passed since the last guns stopped, but uncontrollable firestorms still raged all over the planet. The occasional break in the clouds revealed green landmasses pockmarked with wide swaths of blackened scars.

and a casualties report
Quote:
There was a pause. “At last pass, sixty-three million dead, mostly from orbital bombardment directed at population centers. One million or so killed during the surface landings; another million in subsequent ground combat. At least two million were taken as slaves, but we won’t know exact numbers for some time.
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