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Hitting my first month Question about the oracle, its fit more or less
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Greg Tzash
Doomheim
#1 - 2015-06-07 02:47:43 UTC
As the title states I've finally reached my first month of Eve. With a large payload of ISK and a quick learning pace I find myself flying (and loving) the Oracle. An Amarr BC. However I have no idea exactly how i want to fly this thing. In PVE i know i want to run a T2 Armor Beam fit. and in PVP a T2 MegaPulse fit. I guess i dont know how to properly fit it.

I'm still learning the ins and outs (dont worry) but alot of the guides and fits im looking at are dated by at least 3 years. An up to date fit would be nice and if you can your own opinons/tips on the Oracle would be much appreciated. Fly safe o/
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#2 - 2015-06-07 02:56:20 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
(reserved)

Quote:
However I have no idea exactly how i want to fly this thing. In PVE i know i want to run a T2 Armor Beam fit. and in PVP a T2 MegaPulse fit. I guess i dont know how to properly fit it.

Okay... so here's the short and dirty version:

You know how many people in EVE generally say to specialize your ship towards a certain task?

Attack Battlecruisers are "specialized" by default (much the same way Tech 2 ships are).
And your only options regarding fitting one of these ships is to...
- fit according to that specialty (basically it is a relatively mobile "artillery platform")
- use "special snowflake" fits that are so hyper-specialized that they really don't make much sense outside of what you are precisely trying to do.


The biggest problems with Attack Battlecruisers are that...
- they are suited for using Battleship-class weapons (which are terrible at close range due to their slow tracking speed)
- they have no "point-defense" for faster, smaller ships (sans the Talos (Gallente A-BC))
- they have, at best, the tank of a cruiser (Cruisers average around 20 to 40k effective hitpoints... a "normal" battlecruiser and battleships should average between 50 to 90k and 120 to 200k effective hitpoints, respectively).


What this all means is that use of an Attack Battlecruiser really boils down to two things:
- using your above average in-class mobility and range to keep safe and apply damage properly
- fitting your ship to employ the above tactic properly


So here are two fits that I have seen being used (apologies, my EFT is one expansion out of date):

[Oracle, lol-PvP]
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Overdrive Injector System II (or Nanofiber Internal Structure)

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Medium Energy Burst Aerator I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


NOTES:
- The idea behind this fit is that "offense is the best defense" and to basically run away from everything.

- With high skills and close range ammo you should top about 900 damage per second within 20km of you. Switch to Tech 2 Scorch ammo and you will be applying ~700 dps out to 55km.

- Try not to fly this ship without some kind of support. It is an easy target for frigates.

- Don't brawl. By that I mean, don't get caught up in a close range fight. In fact... don't commit at all. Just shoot... and if you don't think you can kill your target quickly... RUN.



And then here is a generic PvE fit I cooked up (someone can probably think up something better).

[Oracle, PvE]
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Heat Sink II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Medium Armor Repairer II

10MN Microwarpdrive II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Standard L

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I


NOTES:
- this fit is VERY, VERY tight. If your skills are not up to snuff... trade the guns down to Mega Beams.

- use your Microwarpdrive to pull range... but DO NOT keep it running all the time. Pulse it. Otherwise you will have no more energy for your guns.

- the same is true for your armor repair. At range, you should be taking minimal damage. If your repper can't keep up, pull more range.

- KILL FRIGATES FIRST. Let me repeat that: KILL FRIGATES FIRST.
Speed and range make up the majority of your tank... anything that threatens that should be quickly nuked.





Other things to consider:

- most weapons, and lasers in particular, operate best at the edge of their optimal range.

- longer range ammo will deal less damage, yes... but that is often the sacrifice you must make for greater safety and control over a battle.

- if a frigate gets "under your guns" (see: it is orbiting around you at close range) there are ways to break free and/or counter it. Look up the "slingshot maneuver" ... "angular velocity" ... "transversal"
None of these are guarantees though.

- if you want more "flexibility" in terms of what tactics you can use and/or what ships you can engage... I suggest you find a second "favorite ship." The Oracle, while awesome as a structure basher and sniper, would not be my first choice in most situations.

How did you Veterans start?
Ahed Sten
#3 - 2015-06-07 06:19:06 UTC
Good post from Fluffers. Oracle is a glass cannon that is usually only seen during structure bashes or other various sniping roles, such as gate camping from 150km + when you've already got someone else taking care of tackle.

For an example fit look at the one I lost today due to bugged gate gun aggro.

Locks a frig in about 2.5 sec. 167km optimal with Aurora and enough alpha to instapop a lot of frigs before they can enter warp, often making tackle unnecessary.
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#4 - 2015-06-07 06:35:44 UTC
How ever when talking about PvE and I assume It's missions we're talking about here, you should use 'normal' BC for level 3's and a battleship for level 4's or a T3 cruiser but definitely not a T3 BC or you will get burned at some point since those things are meant for ganking with maximum fire power and that never works in PvE.
Ahed Sten
#5 - 2015-06-07 06:53:35 UTC
Baneken wrote:
How ever when talking about PvE and I assume It's missions we're talking about here, you should use 'normal' BC for level 3's and a battleship for level 4's or a T3 cruiser but definitely not a T3 BC or you will get burned at some point since those things are meant for ganking with maximum fire power and that never works in PvE.


For confusion's sake it should be noted that in saying 'T3 BC' he means 'Teir 3', not 'Tech 3'. They are totally different and there are no 'Tech 3' BC's. Teir 3 BC's are the 'glass cannons' of the BC class. In case you didn't already know.

But yeah. Don't ever use an Oracle for level 3 or 4 missions, it will DIAF.
Greg Tzash
Doomheim
#6 - 2015-06-07 07:12:34 UTC
Ahed Sten wrote:
Baneken wrote:
How ever when talking about PvE and I assume It's missions we're talking about here, you should use 'normal' BC for level 3's and a battleship for level 4's or a T3 cruiser but definitely not a T3 BC or you will get burned at some point since those things are meant for ganking with maximum fire power and that never works in PvE.


For confusion's sake it should be noted that in saying 'T3 BC' he means 'Teir 3', not 'Tech 3'. They are totally different and there are no 'Tech 3' BC's. Teir 3 BC's are the 'glass cannons' of the BC class. In case you didn't already know.

But yeah. Don't ever use an Oracle for level 3 or 4 missions, it will DIAF.



I kinda figured that, i realize the risks im taking by piloting an oracle. I know the disadvantages quite well. But I'm willing to look past that and bite that bullet (err crystal) to fly her. Thanks for the quick replies and tips o7
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#7 - 2015-06-07 08:28:56 UTC
Greg Tzash wrote:
Ahed Sten wrote:
Baneken wrote:
How ever when talking about PvE and I assume It's missions we're talking about here, you should use 'normal' BC for level 3's and a battleship for level 4's or a T3 cruiser but definitely not a T3 BC or you will get burned at some point since those things are meant for ganking with maximum fire power and that never works in PvE.


For confusion's sake it should be noted that in saying 'T3 BC' he means 'Teir 3', not 'Tech 3'. They are totally different and there are no 'Tech 3' BC's. Teir 3 BC's are the 'glass cannons' of the BC class. In case you didn't already know.

But yeah. Don't ever use an Oracle for level 3 or 4 missions, it will DIAF.



I kinda figured that, i realize the risks im taking by piloting an oracle. I know the disadvantages quite well. But I'm willing to look past that and bite that bullet (err crystal) to fly her. Thanks for the quick replies and tips o7

That's the spirit.
theirs absolutely nothing wrong with going against the meta or disregarding the norm if you do so knowingly,

I might recommend looking at the talos for pve though as it may save you the embarrassment of having to ask in local for someone to come kill that elite frigate that got under your guns and pointed you (believe me it's embarrassing).

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Greg Tzash
Doomheim
#8 - 2015-06-07 09:51:44 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Greg Tzash wrote:
Ahed Sten wrote:
Baneken wrote:
How ever when talking about PvE and I assume It's missions we're talking about here, you should use 'normal' BC for level 3's and a battleship for level 4's or a T3 cruiser but definitely not a T3 BC or you will get burned at some point since those things are meant for ganking with maximum fire power and that never works in PvE.


For confusion's sake it should be noted that in saying 'T3 BC' he means 'Teir 3', not 'Tech 3'. They are totally different and there are no 'Tech 3' BC's. Teir 3 BC's are the 'glass cannons' of the BC class. In case you didn't already know.

But yeah. Don't ever use an Oracle for level 3 or 4 missions, it will DIAF.



I kinda figured that, i realize the risks im taking by piloting an oracle. I know the disadvantages quite well. But I'm willing to look past that and bite that bullet (err crystal) to fly her. Thanks for the quick replies and tips o7

That's the spirit.
theirs absolutely nothing wrong with going against the meta or disregarding the norm if you do so knowingly,

I might recommend looking at the talos for pve though as it may save you the embarrassment of having to ask in local for someone to come kill that elite frigate that got under your guns and pointed you (believe me it's embarrassing).



I can only imagine lol. My alliance is broken down between quite a few corporations specializing in certain aspects of the game. Theres one that does specifically incursions and L3s-L4s
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2015-06-07 12:43:02 UTC
Small weapons and ships train very fast. Medium sized weapons and ships the training is more than small but not so bad. Large ships (Battleships and their T2 variants) take a long time to train. Small ships are much cheaper to replace. For these reason I say that newer players should avoid large ships and their weapons systems.

The Oracle is a medium sized ship that uses large weapons. It is an extremely specialized ship that does not offer a lot of flexibility or options. Focus on frigs, dessies and cruisers for now maybe some of the other battlecruisers if they allow you access to some PvE that you would otherwise have difficulty doing. Then with your skills bring up the small and medium ship and weapons skills while you are also working on your generic / support stats. Once you have decent: fitting, tank and propulsion skills as well as have your generic weapons skills up at a decent level then move into large ships and their weapons if that is your interest.

As other's have stated the attack battlecruisers are glass cannons and the large weapons have a difficult time hitting anything smaller than them. Since range helps with tracking you will likely need to have any gunnery skills that increase tracking or range to be able to even apply the dps that on paper that ship says it has the potential to do. Also you'll need the gunnery skills that reduce fitting requirements along with the base fitting skills.

So work on those base skill for now. When you have a use for an Oracle you won't be coming back here to ask us how to fit it as you'll already know since you know what it is that you are trying to do with it.

In Eve ships are tools. Disposable tools used to accomplish a task. If you come in here and say I want to fly such and such a ship what can I do with it then you are going about it bass ackwards. In Eve you first decide what it is that you want to do then you figure out the ship to do it in. Not the other way around.

A big part of this game is gunnery and tracking. There are a **** ton of guides out there for Eve gunnery and tracking, including a flash based tutorial that I find very helpful. I suggest you investigate Eve gunnery and tracking as it will show you not only how to apply dps but also how to reduce or avoid incoming dps. Once you understand gunnery and tracking so much else about eve and especially fitting ships will make sense and this game will, at that point, begin to make a lot more sense.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Greg Tzash
Doomheim
#10 - 2015-06-07 15:47:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Greg Tzash
ergherhdfgh wrote:
Small weapons and ships train very fast. Medium sized weapons and ships the training is more than small but not so bad. Large ships (Battleships and their T2 variants) take a long time to train. Small ships are much cheaper to replace. For these reason I say that newer players should avoid large ships and their weapons systems.

The Oracle is a medium sized ship that uses large weapons. It is an extremely specialized ship that does not offer a lot of flexibility or options. Focus on frigs, dessies and cruisers for now maybe some of the other battlecruisers if they allow you access to some PvE that you would otherwise have difficulty doing. Then with your skills bring up the small and medium ship and weapons skills while you are also working on your generic / support stats. Once you have decent: fitting, tank and propulsion skills as well as have your generic weapons skills up at a decent level then move into large ships and their weapons if that is your interest.

As other's have stated the attack battlecruisers are glass cannons and the large weapons have a difficult time hitting anything smaller than them. Since range helps with tracking you will likely need to have any gunnery skills that increase tracking or range to be able to even apply the dps that on paper that ship says it has the potential to do. Also you'll need the gunnery skills that reduce fitting requirements along with the base fitting skills.

So work on those base skill for now. When you have a use for an Oracle you won't be coming back here to ask us how to fit it as you'll already know since you know what it is that you are trying to do with it.

In Eve ships are tools. Disposable tools used to accomplish a task. If you come in here and say I want to fly such and such a ship what can I do with it then you are going about it bass ackwards. In Eve you first decide what it is that you want to do then you figure out the ship to do it in. Not the other way around.

A big part of this game is gunnery and tracking. There are a **** ton of guides out there for Eve gunnery and tracking, including a flash based tutorial that I find very helpful. I suggest you investigate Eve gunnery and tracking as it will show you not only how to apply dps but also how to reduce or avoid incoming dps. Once you understand gunnery and tracking so much else about eve and especially fitting ships will make sense and this game will, at that point, begin to make a lot more sense.


I appreciate your opinion and will only take it as such. I realize now that me asking has most likely placed me in an area of knowledge lacking made by assumptions. I've done my research, i know the difference between an armor and shield tanking, trackingoverall. i know sig radius and tracking speed, Radions, Angular transversal velocities, etc.

I also realize what I'm asking, the guides/fits for an oracle are about 3 years old, at least on the internet, In my entire alliance, NOONE, save one person, actually has experience flying the Oracle. As everyone avoids the Amarr varients. That person is rarely on (different time zones), hence why i came here.

Its more to verify the builds listed online as either dated or up to snuff. As well as any overall tips (negative or postive) flying the Oracle.

Dont get me wrong I do appreciate you posting your reply. Other players considering the same thing will read this and see that as well.

But Like ive stated, I know exactly what disadvantages I'm putting myself into. I know exactly the Pluses and Minuses of flying an Oracle, and im still going to.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2015-06-07 16:48:51 UTC
Greg Tzash wrote:
I know exactly what disadvantages I'm putting myself into. I know exactly the Pluses and Minuses of flying an Oracle, and im still going to.

cool then what ever works for you. Some times you gotta wizz on the electric fence just to see what will happen.

Just as a note back in the day I used to hang out in an Iowa college town on the weekends and invariably when those farm boys would tell stories about urinating on an electric fence the story would always start out with the phrase " so when I woke up". Just a true, funny and somewhat related story.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2015-06-07 17:02:35 UTC
Greg Tzash wrote:


Its more to verify the builds listed online as either dated or up to snuff.

With regards to this point as other's have stated the Oracle is purported to have only one very specific use as opposed to most T1 ships in this game that can often be fit many ways. So if you plan on doing something outside it's specific niche then you will likely have to come up with your own fit. Not that it can't be done but if you want to be a trail blazer then you really can't look to others' examples. You kind of have to become the example.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2015-06-07 19:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Oracles can be great for nullsec anoms, and I would guess could be fine for missions, just set up with a mwd and snipe like you would in pvp. Missions with stasis towers will be very difficult as will ones with spider drones. Check eve survival for those.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

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Greg Tzash
Doomheim
#14 - 2015-06-07 21:33:49 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
Greg Tzash wrote:


Its more to verify the builds listed online as either dated or up to snuff.

With regards to this point as other's have stated the Oracle is purported to have only one very specific use as opposed to most T1 ships in this game that can often be fit many ways. So if you plan on doing something outside it's specific niche then you will likely have to come up with your own fit. Not that it can't be done but if you want to be a trail blazer then you really can't look to others' examples. You kind of have to become the example.



Understood, I have to start somewhere though. No point in painting a picasso if you dont know how to paint.
Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
#15 - 2015-06-08 13:32:06 UTC
actually, Oracle and all other Tier3 BC works great for L3 missions. they do a lot of damage (500+dps) even on level 3 skills.
a long-long time ago i flew this:

{Oracle, L34}

Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Medium Armor Repairer II
800mm Rolled Tungsten Plates

100mn Afterburner I
Large Peroxide Capacitor Cell
Euletic Compact Cap Recharger

Dual Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Dual Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Dual Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Dual Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Dual Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Dual Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Dual Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Dual Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L

Medium Nanobot Accelerator I
Medium Auxilary Nano Pump I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
when you arrive on mission, RUN away from NPC. on lower skill you will get 1000+ m/s.
DO NOT use any MVD on missions, because:
1) you will run out of cap
2) NPC will blow you, because MVD increase your signature resolution.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2015-06-09 00:11:25 UTC
Ahed Sten wrote:
Baneken wrote:
How ever when talking about PvE and I assume It's missions we're talking about here, you should use 'normal' BC for level 3's and a battleship for level 4's or a T3 cruiser but definitely not a T3 BC or you will get burned at some point since those things are meant for ganking with maximum fire power and that never works in PvE.


For confusion's sake it should be noted that in saying 'T3 BC' he means 'Teir 3', not 'Tech 3'. They are totally different and there are no 'Tech 3' BC's. Teir 3 BC's are the 'glass cannons' of the BC class. In case you didn't already know.

But yeah. Don't ever use an Oracle for level 3 or 4 missions, it will DIAF.


I'd like to add further that battlecruisers in real life could be glass cannons as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battleship
Quote:
Fisher's preferred option was his brainchild, the battlecruiser: lightly armored but heavily armed with eight 12-inch guns and propelled to 25 knots (46 km/h) by steam turbines.


That's kind of one of the issues with the other two battlecruisers; they lack 7-8 weapons slots or the equivalent firepower in drones in most cases. The oracle is essentially the "12-inch guns" boat, while the other battlecruisers are pretty low on output. They're more or less more heavily armored cruisers with a slight boost in damage. Unlike in real life analogized to sea boats, the battlecruiser space boats we use do not all use the heavier guns with lighter armor and greater speed, except for the tier 3s. Also unlike real life of sea boats vs our space boats, ships get slower as they get bigger, not faster. Around the battlecruiser/battleship range, barring exceptions for complete glass cannoning, there's little value in trying to boost the speed of your battleship or battlecruiser, as the game ranges, webs, and other things make a boost of 200-300 m/s pretty much useless.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices