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Rat aggression swaps in pvp situations.

First post
Author
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1 - 2015-06-05 05:25:45 UTC  |  Edited by: W0lf Crendraven
@ccp, was it your goal to make frigate/dessie pvp unbearable or what is the reason this is in the game in its current form?


If i fly a garmur (or insert random kiting ship) and i stumble upon a t1 fit cruiser in a belt that fighting a clone soldier, do you know what happens if i try to kill the clone soldier? It swaps instantly and applies absurd dps to the ship that has come to help it, making any sort of kill impossible for a smaller then cruiser hull.


If a ishtar or tengu is doing a besieged site and i go to tackle it in any ship, the rats swap instantly to blow the ship coming to help them up.

If you try to tackle a bs or carrier doing a lvl5, guess what blows up the tackle ceptor instantly? The rats.


Hell, in certain plex in lowsec you can even have the rats pvp for you (Hashi Keptzh).

.

Kills like that https://zkillboard.com/kill/46614236/ should never ever happen in that form, i chased him out of a site, then i did the site myself cause i was bored. He came back to kill me in his curse, the rats ate him up in seconds.



Rats aggro changes mean the people that actually come to shoot the rats enemies (the pveers) will be swaped to instantly. This is a ******** mechanic and needs to go. It is especially stupid for frig or dessie pilots.
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#2 - 2015-06-05 05:43:25 UTC
Or you know... Maybe dont fight in places where the NPCs will OWNBOAT you?

Since the whole "i am seeing EWAR own all the things" is a well documented part of their AI?
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#3 - 2015-06-05 05:53:13 UTC
So never shoot pvers again? And piracy in this game can go to hell or what?
Aplysia Vejun
Children of Agasul
#4 - 2015-06-05 06:20:40 UTC
It gives the pve people a (small) chance against you. Nothilfe wrong with that.
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#5 - 2015-06-05 06:57:57 UTC
Shoot PVE-ers all you want but doing it inside a site you arent tanked to handle seems like a sub optimal place to do it is all i am saying
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#6 - 2015-06-05 07:13:16 UTC
I agree that it is absurd. The dynamic of catching someone in a PVE situation has totally changed over the past few years. It used to be that a Pilgrim could catch a ratter, turn off his tank, and let the NPC's do most of the damage. Now, the NPC's happily help kill the Pilgrim because he is using electronic warfare!

If it was me, I would add some 30-day Pirate ship skins that make the NPC's not shoot you, unless you shoot them first or remote repair another player who is shooting them.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#7 - 2015-06-05 08:41:44 UTC
FireFrenzy wrote:
Shoot PVE-ers all you want but doing it inside a site you arent tanked to handle seems like a sub optimal place to do it is all i am saying


It's more of a ****** thing that ratting in guristas complexes is about the safest activity in eve on par with staying docked. It's mildly numbing that you warp to a Nexor/Ishtar/Rattle in a site in a ceptor and get jammed by NPCs cause you're totally a high priority target for them... *Got point... sec, got jammed :(*

These curent mechanics do little but promote teaming up on someone as opposed to allowing you to engage pvers on your own as it used to be before theme park AI got introduced and your pve-content started protecting you.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#8 - 2015-06-05 13:48:14 UTC
The change to the NPC AI was long overdue.
In times past the PvE players would complain about how unfair it was that they would have to tank the rats simply because they warped into the pocket first, while those who come to attack you were left completely untouched. Now you know how they felt about the situation in times past.

In missions / anoms / sites whatever the NPC rats need to be as neutral as possible to eliminate the NPC as a factor in these players versus player encounters. The PvE player has to tank the rats and fight you, it puts the situation on even ground if you have to tank the rats as well. This leaves the outcome of these encounters exactly where it should be in the hands of the players that are involved.

So as they say tank up and join the fun, or suffer the consequences of your choices.

Oh and that EWAR drawing agro thing that is a priority that CCP coded into the AI and as mentioned above it is well documented here and in other forums. And the answer to your question is YES if the PvE players use EWAR it will draw agro onto them, that's probably why most of them are smart enough not to use it so there may be a lesson there for you.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#9 - 2015-06-05 13:58:11 UTC
Thats stupid though, the pveer is trying to kill the rats, the priate is trying to safe them.


Also, i know why they changed it (it was due to people using a tanky ship first and using a max gank ship with 0 tank second) but its a bad change.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#10 - 2015-06-05 14:05:52 UTC
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#11 - 2015-06-05 15:09:54 UTC
If your going into a site for tackle there are 2 golden rules you must never forget

1. Ewar draws rat aggro very heavily, it always has, which means if you warp in you better be set up to tank the target and the mission/site long enough for support to land or for you to kill them. Ive lost a few ships simply because i couldnt tank the mission, though other times we got the kills like the harbinger navy and startios duo running a L4 in low sec.

This has been this way for years, its working as intended and gives the aggressor something else to account for, you already have more than a few things working in your favor this is just a potential balance factor for the defender instead and it may or may not even work for them.


2. In PVE ships that warp in second sometimes get primaried by the rats as supposed support for the first ship, once again another thing to account for for all the above reasons.

If your having issues doing this, scare someone out of a site and then wait on the ingate to the site and catch them there, wait till they kill the room ( check wrecks on D-scan compared to number of rats spawned via Eve-Survival ).

Piracy can have many layers to it, some tools that you may want to use may not even seem like they need to be used, but the smarter you go about it the more succesfull you will be.

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#12 - 2015-06-05 16:41:20 UTC
When third parties jump in on my fights, i blap them too.

And which would you shoot first?
The ship that can perma-tank you, or the squishy idiot in a blinged ship who cant keep up transversal?


W0lf Crendraven wrote:



Also, i know why they changed it (it was due to people using a tanky ship first and using a max gank ship with 0 tank second) but its a bad change.


They changed it for a number of reasons, because it was bad for a number of reasons. It was a whole AI overhaul, not just centred around one of the many ways to exploit the simple AI.

- It was too easily manipulated. You could enter a site with a drone boat, get aggro, then go afk whilst your drones ran missions and anoms for you.
- Where engagements were already in favour of the PvP aggressor, it forced the PvE player to tank both the NPC aggro and the PvP player.

Now you have to take all ships (NPC and Player) into account when you start a fight, as you should.

TL:DR
its better now. Stop rant. Learn to play.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#13 - 2015-06-05 18:08:22 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
When third parties jump in on my fights, i blap them too.

And which would you shoot first?
The ship that can perma-tank you, or the squishy idiot in a blinged ship who cant keep up transversal?


W0lf Crendraven wrote:



Also, i know why they changed it (it was due to people using a tanky ship first and using a max gank ship with 0 tank second) but its a bad change.


They changed it for a number of reasons, because it was bad for a number of reasons. It was a whole AI overhaul, not just centred around one of the many ways to exploit the simple AI.

- It was too easily manipulated. You could enter a site with a drone boat, get aggro, then go afk whilst your drones ran missions and anoms for you.
- Where engagements were already in favour of the PvP aggressor, it forced the PvE player to tank both the NPC aggro and the PvP player.

Now you have to take all ships (NPC and Player) into account when you start a fight, as you should.

TL:DR
its better now. Stop rant. Learn to play.


Of course it favoured the pvp agressor, its the point of the whole thing and it only is logical. The enemy of my enemy is my friend and so on.



Most pvp ships easily deal with pve situations (the best pve ship is basicely the 100mn ham pvp tengu for lowsec) but its just gives the stick to frigate and dessie pilots.



It makes no sense that the content you are doing is actually protecting you from outside interference. it should be the other way around, content you are doing is making you an easier prey then usual. It always was that way, and i think ccp forgot about that part when they changed them for numerous reasons, amongst them the ones you listed.




Any serious pvper can tell you that it was a bad change.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#14 - 2015-06-05 20:17:18 UTC
Or you could go find someone to fight that isn't in a ship you can effortlessly blap with or without the NPC's presentation.

You don't get to be immune to the environment, sorry. You want to hunt people in dangerous places, fit accordingly.
Iain Cariaba
#15 - 2015-06-05 20:39:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Iain Cariaba
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
blah blah blah, bad idea supported by facetious arguments blah blah blah

No, the enemy of my enemy is often my enemy as well. This is exceptionally true for pirate groups that live outside the law. If I were a pirate, and I am at times, I would see some random guy coming in and shooting someone attacking me not as a saivor, but as another target for me to kill and loot. Oh, and look, you were even nice enough to bring a ship that's easy for me to kill.

Now, maybe if you had done some missions for said NPC pirate group, and had high standing with them, I could see them not shooting in favor of the other guy. If you're just some guy that came in, you're just another target, and with the power that ewar carries, you're the bigger threat.
Doddy
Excidium.
#16 - 2015-06-05 20:56:04 UTC
Bit late to be complaining about this to be honest, ccp pulled this crap over 2 years ago during their "turn eve into carebear heaven" phase. We all pointed out how it would kill roaming, solo hunting and even small scale hot drops, but that was thier intention so they didn't care.
Doddy
Excidium.
#17 - 2015-06-05 21:09:58 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Or you could go find someone to fight that isn't in a ship you can effortlessly blap with or without the NPC's presentation.

You don't get to be immune to the environment, sorry. You want to hunt people in dangerous places, fit accordingly.


Except it didn't make things even, it made things completely in the pve players favour. The Pve Player only needs to tank the rats or the player. The pvp player needs to tank the rats and the player. The pve player also only needs the rats ewar to hit once to get away, and will have any rat webs/neuts helping them as well. The PvP player already needs to fly a ship able to penetrate hostile space (i.e. fast and therefore light) and use fitting space for a point, while the pve player only needs to tank long enough for the cavalry to arrive. So to have any chance of success the pvper needs to fit lots of damage, lots of mobility and a point, but now they also need to fit lots of tank and counter ewar for the stockholm syndrome rats.

To be fair the rat aggro would be random, or more obviously the rats would take the opportunity to gtfo (in belts at least).

Personally I think some standing related mechanic on the part of the rats would be very cool, have good standing to the rats in question and they wont attack you over the ratter who will likely have terrible standing.

And who else is there to fight exactly? The only time any 0.0 kiddies fly in groups of less than 10 is when they rat.
Specia1 K
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2015-06-05 21:45:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Specia1 K
Doddy wrote:
Bit late to be complaining about this to be honest, ccp pulled this crap over 2 years ago during their "turn eve into carebear heaven" phase. We all pointed out how it would kill roaming, solo hunting and even small scale hot drops, but that was thier intention so they didn't care.


If you go into a jungle to fight, everything there will try and kill and eat you too.

Working as expected....

edit. smarter AI is coming into the game, just wait for it.

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#19 - 2015-06-05 21:56:34 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
The enemy of my enemy is my friend and so on.


No its not.


W0lf Crendraven wrote:

Any serious pvper can tell you that it was a bad change.


The serious PvP'ers adapted. Those looking for easy kills whined.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#20 - 2015-06-05 22:29:34 UTC
You think the NPC cares who's on field? He hates all capsuleers alike and will everyone he can.

Especially if you have a point, you are a bigger threat to his escape (lol) than someone for for ratting.
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