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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Sojourn: Void

Author
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#101 - 2015-06-05 05:00:09 UTC
Desiderya wrote:
I was about to wax lyrically about death, sparks of data, biofeedback and catecholamine induced rushes but I'm not in the mood for this.
Death's a horrid business - but it's business. It'll never stop, not in our lifetimes, and everyone who steps down from it will get replaced by the next hired killer.

It is a grim world out there, where you either do or get done. And we? Well, we're not done.

Giving up trade secrets, dear?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#102 - 2015-06-05 06:29:25 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:

Jill the lust for isk and the thrill of the kill completely consume the humanity of many pilots.

They simply become weapons systems that talk, devoid of a real sense of honor or a human conscious. But remnants of their former humanity try to reassert themselves as close bonds with those they fly with. They have nothing left to feel loyalty to so they elevate each other.

Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.


Personally, I would not describe myself as having close personal bonds with those I fly with. My loyalty is defined in the contractual terms and conditions, not in friendship.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#103 - 2015-06-05 08:08:32 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Desiderya wrote:
I was about to wax lyrically about death, sparks of data, biofeedback and catecholamine induced rushes but I'm not in the mood for this.
Death's a horrid business - but it's business. It'll never stop, not in our lifetimes, and everyone who steps down from it will get replaced by the next hired killer.

It is a grim world out there, where you either do or get done. And we? Well, we're not done.

Giving up trade secrets, dear?


I know, I know, I'm getting soft.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Tabor Murn
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#104 - 2015-06-05 12:51:13 UTC
Jili Tonari wrote:

If ISK is your tribe, you don't get to ID yourself as Matari. There ain't no "we."

I ain't saying we all perfect shining things. Everyone got a darkness in them. But if all you create in life is a pile of ISK and a bloodbath, you kinda missing the point on what life is about.


Matar Ronin wrote:

Jill the lust for isk and the thrill of the kill completely consume the humanity of many pilots.


Capsuleers finding fault with their opponents for making ISK is just about the stupidest thing I've ever witnessed.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#105 - 2015-06-05 14:11:43 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:

Jill the lust for isk and the thrill of the kill completely consume the humanity of many pilots.

They simply become weapons systems that talk, devoid of a real sense of honor or a human conscious. But remnants of their former humanity try to reassert themselves as close bonds with those they fly with. They have nothing left to feel loyalty to so they elevate each other.

Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.


Personally, I would not describe myself as having close personal bonds with those I fly with. My loyalty is defined in the contractual terms and conditions, not in friendship.

You mean the others, right Veiki? WE'RE tight, right?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#106 - 2015-06-05 15:39:01 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

You mean the others, right Veiki? WE'RE tight, right?


I tend only to be partial to call those kirjuun who are able to tear apart a red light district, get copiously inebriated, and wake up hungover in a brig still able to do a forced pack march in full combat webbing to a cadence called by a sadistic and cruel PT sargeant.

As the hot fuzz, you'd probably look down on such behaviour from Naval Marines.


Kurilaivonen|Concern

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#107 - 2015-06-05 15:59:58 UTC
How quickly the naivities of youth are taken from us.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Vizage
Capital Allied Industrial Distribution
#108 - 2015-06-05 16:07:56 UTC
Sounds like a bonding opportunity to me.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#109 - 2015-06-05 16:32:55 UTC
Vizage wrote:
Sounds like a bonding opportunity to me.

Her sister is nicer, anyway. *hmph*

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Jili Tonari
Doomheim
#110 - 2015-06-05 17:55:42 UTC
Tabor Murn wrote:
Jili Tonari wrote:

If ISK is your tribe, you don't get to ID yourself as Matari. There ain't no "we."

I ain't saying we all perfect shining things. Everyone got a darkness in them. But if all you create in life is a pile of ISK and a bloodbath, you kinda missing the point on what life is about.


Matar Ronin wrote:

Jill the lust for isk and the thrill of the kill completely consume the humanity of many pilots.


Capsuleers finding fault with their opponents for making ISK is just about the stupidest thing I've ever witnessed.



You miss the point.

Being what we are, what we can do, ISK means nothing. A person can undock, mine an asteroid and retire on what they make in the first haul. But if you keep mining, you can make more ISK and you break no sweat. Or maybe you explore. Or set up colonies, or trade, or manufacture. There are an infinite numbers of ways to make ISK.

But if your only concern in life is making ISK, if that's the be all, end all, you're missing out on life.

So we got these here people that chase the Almighty ISK, and do they take the safe, sure methods? No. They kill for ISK.

People kill for many reasons. And we're all bloody. I an't faulting no one for cuttin a profit. But cutting a throat to make that profit and that being your sole reason to exist, that's evil as f*ck.

And I think Matar is pointing out the space-happy sociopaths who do it again and again for no other reason that it's the only thing that makes them feel anymore. That it's a trap we can all fall into.

So yeah, if ISK is your Tribe, you can't stand for anything else. Not people, not gods, not friends, not family. Because you will always sell that part of you for more ISK.

And if you look back, you'll see these people are not just making a nice bundle of ISK, they're doing it by killing Matari. So yeah, I got a big problem with that.

“Where must we go, we who wander this wasteland, in search of our better selves.”

Nethys Axion
Anshar Incorporated
#111 - 2015-06-05 18:11:18 UTC
Okay, I've got a lot of data to cover here.

Jili: You say Matari Lives Matter, but they're getting killed as rapidly as they're thrown on the execution block.
You seem to get very detached from the fact that you're a capsuleer now, not the same human you used to be.
Furthermore, you seem to think we have some issue with the Matari, which I personally love them, but detest the Republic, and that's not even why I'm in this 'war'. It's quite simple really, I wholly intend to eliminate targets regardless of race, creed, or values, but now at least someone's paying me to do it on top of all that.

Matar Ronin: I have a hard time staying interested in what you have to say, as what it lacks in content it makes up for in--actually no, until you start applying some weight to your words, your roars are as whispers, fitting for a kitten with no fangs. I wanted to address you so you don't feel left out, you know, because I'm nice.

Deitra: Exactly that, really.

Vincent: This is why we're friends.

Jili, pt. 2: If it weren't about ISK, you wouldn't be in league with the Tribal Liberation Force. You sound an awful lot like I did when I first joined the Caldari war zone. I was angry, with a belly full of fire and a fistful of conviction, but in the end, it doesn't matter; business runs the same regardless of what you think about it. You cay say you oppose it all you want, but your actions are spinning the same wheel as the Imps are, like it or not.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#112 - 2015-06-05 18:12:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Oh well, then. My tribe is Kalaakiota and your tribe is at war with my tribe. Good enough?

You keep acting as if the Caldari have any reason to love the TLF or need any justification to burn their ships.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#113 - 2015-06-06 06:32:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Entry Five: Zones of Concern

Entering into this whole thing, I sort of assumed that the so-called "Demented" had generally reverted to caring about concrete people and few, if any, aggregate or abstract entities.

It seems I gave a lot of us too little credit, or, maybe, extrapolated too far from my own limited and kind of unusual experience. It seems even the most ruthless capsuleers can still feel a strong attachment to an alliance of thousands of pilots, and some (mostly in smaller capsuleer circles?) might even maintain strong protective feelings towards basline crewmembers under their care. Whether these feelings are motivated in the ways that those baseliners might find most comforting is an open question, but that's maybe the case for persons of lesser status in most societies.


I want to make clear, also, that what I'm talking about isn't anything unusual. The specifics might be uncommon (a quasi-immortal class of humanity's kind of a new thing, at least in the empires' experience), but the patterns are familiar.

A few examples:

* Soldiers are routinely conditioned to let go of their reluctance to kill. A soldier who won't pull the trigger isn't much use to anyone. Soldiers in a single military unit often develop intense loyalty towards one another, sometimes exceeding their attachment to the societies for which they theoretically fight.

* Disaffected citizens routinely arise in every society, and form their own sets of loyalties and sympathies, in defiance of social norms.

* Nationalist or ethnically-centered political organizations tend to focus on, and encourage, loyalty to a narrower circle of humanity than the society might normally recognize.

* Criminal gangs and, especially, organized crime have a long history of establishing what are essentially smaller, alternative civilizations within their host civilizations, with sharply different sympathies emphasized. Loyalty to country, to humanity generally, and, certainly, to the society's recognized power structures are undercut, and replaced with loyalty to the more immediate group.


Likewise, even the most disquieting habits common among capsuleers have precedent:

* Social elites often have minimal awareness or caring for those of lower status unless given reason to pay attention (and maybe even then). An example of this is the corporate abuses that gave rise to the Brothers of Freedom, and ultimately Tibus Heth.

* People generally find names and faces easier to care about than death statistics. In general, those crew who die in the ships we destroy are no more "real" to us than those at the receiving end of a ground-based artillery barrage are to the gun crews.

* Torture and general abuse of those perceived as "enemies" can only be said to be "inhuman" conduct with a massive dose of optimism about what humans are capable of. If anything, capsuleers seem to do less of this than average (if only through a lack of caring).

* Warriors of many cultures throughout history have taken pride in being seen as demons or monsters. They've worn fearsome masks, painted themselves in lurid colors and fantastic patterns, stuck rotting human heads on posts, and gone about doing all in their power to make themselves look large and fierce. That's not to say that they weren't really dangerous; quite the opposite. But calling yourself "The Demon of the Badlands" and stringing the intestines of your enemies up on trees is an effective way to get people to surrender, or else to fight frightened and therefore make mistakes.


Any effort to try and nail down the usual characteristics (if they're even consistent) of an ... acculturated? Is that the word I should be using? ... independent capsuleer will also have to do business with human frailties that have nothing to do with culturally inculcated zones of concern: depression, for example, seems likely to have played a role in my predecessor's "slide" into "The Black." Something else to watch for would be genuine psychopathy, which we're probably as subject to as anyone else.


So ... that's sort of where I'm starting. The theory. The vision of independent capsuleerdom I'm here trying to verify (or, more accurately, seeing whether it gets disproved).

Not necessarily heroes or villains. Neither gods nor demons (nor monsters, even).

People.

Wish me luck.
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#114 - 2015-06-06 17:40:44 UTC
Good luck, Pilot Jenneth.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#115 - 2015-06-07 10:12:02 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
How quickly the naivities of youth are taken from us.


Perhaps.

Jokes aside, I would not say we are, "tight", we are work associates in a business together. A business that I feel only requires me to prosecute targets with requisite levels of force of violence -- tasks which I feel there exists no doubt in my fulfillment of the KPI. Once those tasks are accomplished then my personal life is my own.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#116 - 2015-06-09 04:36:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Entry Six: Process

PY-RE's business is a quiet affair.

I don't mean the weapons fire or the tear of metal or atmosphere escaping into space (which is quiet, but only because, well, space).

I mean the culture that surrounds it. The approach we take to our work is ... it's not cold; it's more like it's so routine as to be unworthy of excitement. Tactical intel is often relayed in exactly the same tones as discussions over ship fits or recent news. I'm having to learn not to listen for raised voices to flag comms content I should care about and pay attention to.

For me, learning's mostly a matter of figuring out how to apply what I already know. Most rookie pilots start out with very basic knowledge, I guess.

I ... didn't. At least at the subcapital level, what I can't fly is a very short list. It's a little unfair.

Being able to fly it, though, is a far cry from flying it well. Today I enjoyed my first flight in a Keres. It was a generally positive experience-- I even got insulted by a frustrated target, which is the sound of roaring applause for an E-war pilot.

But, then, I went and shrank the targeting range of a Garmur down to a kilometer or so. And, he turned out to be friendly. And, trying to tackle our target. Which, escaped.

Oops.... Sorry?

(He ... didn't take it well.)

(I guess my overview still needs some fine tuning. Sigh.)

Thus far, the largest real advantage my extensive, pre-"me" training seems to offer is flexibility, the ability to use the right tool for the job.

And the job is....

See, this is the thing: when we're on the hunt, there are some things that sort of go out the airlock. Concern for our fellow human beings isn't one of them-- not because we're all hardened killers inured to human suffering, but because that's not anywhere on the scanner in the first place.

We have a job to do, systems to defend, an enemy to counter. Ms. Gesakaarin's remarks aside, it's not about killing the enemy; crew count isn't even a tertiary consideration. It's about stopping the enemy's strategic advance; blocking intruders in the space we defend; destroying their assets; defeating their ability and will to make war.

I should stress, I'm not talking about the ability and will of the baseline crews, but of their capsuleer employers. Mass baseliner death is a byproduct. It's like fertilizer runoff fouling a bay: something maybe undesirable and maybe avoidable, but of minimal concern when your primary worry is growing crops.

We brought down a Dominix, earlier. I didn't really think of its likely multiple-thousand crew count until, literally, right here, writing this. It could be that this reflects something fundamentally maladjusted in my character. That I'm cold-hearted. Callous. Evil.

I don't think it says anything of the sort, though.

Whether it's in long-term strategic planning or workaday tactical maneuvering, our opponents are capsuleers: some of the most capable humanity has to offer ... and some of the most dangerous. Some of their tools are the size of large office buildings, or even cities.

If those tools go down with all hands ... that's sort of a sad thing, if I stop to think about it. But that doesn't mean that there's no job, here, for me to do.

... or fumble over, trying. As the case may be.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#117 - 2015-06-09 11:24:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
No, I do not believe I stated seeking to inflict casualties with targeted spalling ammunition was SOP across the board by any means. Indeed, taken from a purely mercenary perspective it remains an unnecessary extra effort without benefit, financial or otherwise. However, the context in which I view my own actions as regards target prosecutions likely differs in that I view my current freelancer status as an opportunity to gain both combat and operational experience in tasks and procedures I believe to be of use in a future conflict scenario involving Kaalakiota and the State in a total, absolute war.

These remain still nothing more than my own training days. The CEWMPA regulations provide a framework to pursue the expansion of my hydrostat-pod combat skillset in preparation for the day The Company calls me to war without the restraints of CONCORD or interstellar treaty. I pursue unnecessary casualties today in order to better inflict necessary casualties in the future. There's no emotive factor involved in it beyond a satisfaction in having developed a skill. Like flower arrangement, or lacquer stenciling.

Besides, DED killmails don't record crew casualties so one can just assume warp core explosions don't kill people if that makes it easier on the conscience. Sweet Maker wept, it's not like a few more dead here and there even matter after the first few thousand.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#118 - 2015-06-09 15:45:30 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Besides, DED killmails don't record crew casualties so one can just assume warp core explosions don't kill people if that makes it easier on the conscience.

It seems I look to you like someone who would find that sort of lie comforting.

Quote:
Sweet Maker wept, it's not like a few more dead here and there even matter after the first few thousand.

Matter how? To what purpose?

Presumably it matters to them. And we're not really in a position to claim that individual lives are meaningless. After all, we're individuals, too.

Are you saying we've killed so many people that our hands can't get any dirtier?

Unlike those who condemned my coming here, I do not see this work as damaging. Nor, apparently unlike yourself, do I see compassion as a weakness.

I am honing my soul, Veikitamo Gesakaarin.

The state of yours is your own affair.
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#119 - 2015-06-09 17:25:47 UTC
If compassion is weakness then I would be a very weak person indeed.
Jennifer Starfall
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#120 - 2015-06-09 18:00:53 UTC
ValentinaDLM wrote:
If compassion is weakness then I would be a very weak person indeed.


It's not weakness. It takes strength to stay your hand. It takes strength to not obliterate an enemy and accept that they may one day return to fight you again, and that the day may not be your's.

Don't sell yourself short.

Jennifer Starfall

Fifth Seyllin Conference