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Black Ops
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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2015-06-04 11:36:34 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
If you make them so that they can be used in a wider spectrum of activities, such as carriers or other BS, they will inevitably lose what they need do excel in their special role and thus either become OP in most scenarios where normal BS would be used and worse at what they are supposed to do, or they become just as good as other BS but stay unreasonably expensive for that feat and still become worse at their actual role. That's not acceptable.


It is a valid concern and I wouldn't want to see them diminished, but I reckon we're smart enough to think of something cool but not broken as a carrot to push them on field more.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#42 - 2015-06-04 11:38:50 UTC
afkalt wrote:


It is a valid concern and I wouldn't want to see them diminished, but I reckon we're smart enough to think of something cool but not broken as a carrot to push them on field more.


again its cost not lack of ability that keeps people who don't field them fielding them. They don't need anything more

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2015-06-04 11:48:12 UTC
Your very point says the cost isn't worth the gain in most cases then....which was my point all along.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#44 - 2015-06-04 11:52:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
afkalt wrote:
Your very point says the cost isn't worth the gain in most cases then....which was my point all along.



no the inability to replace the lose keeps people from using it

those who can afford to replace them have no problem fielding them.


the reason you dont see so many of these ships lost on zkill is because they are able to pick their fights and gtfo b4 back up comes not because no one is putting them on grid in the first place

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2015-06-04 12:10:36 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
It's not losses I was focusing on so much as kills. They're pretty low - they are higher than I expected, but still low overall. Losses were also higher than expected (though I didnt delve into where/why it happened).

I went with redeemers as they're a pretty common pick and it's only 1.5-2k per month, same with panthers. I can't think of another ship with actual guns that is a valid comparison, heck even Rokhs are on more kills and I don't think I've EVER seen one apart from my own. A tempest/ferox is about par, slightly less used actually....

The point was if people are jumping to use these at every opportunity as was said in the thread and are pretty common on grid, they should be up a lot higher in the blops kills, but they are not. Be that cost/not bringing something to the table/whatever, the numbers suggest by far the most preferred blops action is in bombers with the on 5-6x more kills.

I think they're underused on field and that finding something to increase their use isn't impossible and would be a good way to create more content/have people risk them more.

It might not be possible, but it's something I'd like to see explored rather than dismissed - we dont have to have it stepping on existing ships toes which was why I suggested something unique to the class. So I threw out making them a cyno inhib - daft, perhaps but very unique, a reason to bring them on grid, doesn't step on toes, won't scale to a "fleet" thing and a nice incentive to jump the bugger the in the first place. Now as I said I'm not saying that is a great idea (it's probably not) more an example but I think there is potential for some wiggle room here for something pretty cool but not overbearing. Maybe run a warfare link.

Just...something to encourage them to be on field more.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#46 - 2015-06-04 12:52:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
BLOPs get nearly 5k kills per month(a little over 2x as much as a marauder) and considering most ships are dead b4 you get a lock with a blops that's high.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#47 - 2015-06-04 13:09:14 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
BLOPs get nearly 5k kills per month and considering most ships are dead b4 you get a lock with a blops that's high

How cant the target be dead when you get a lock with you BLOPs if they jump when the target is pointed. Thats right you first bridge in a large enough army to secure the kill then jump the BLOPs to whore on the KM and bring the fleet back home...
Lugh Crow-Slave
#48 - 2015-06-04 13:13:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
BLOPs get nearly 5k kills per month and considering most ships are dead b4 you get a lock with a blops that's high

How cant the target be dead when you get a lock with you BLOPs if they jump when the target is pointed. Thats right you first bridge in a large enough army to secure the kill then jump the BLOPs to ***** on the KM and bring the fleet back home...


what?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2015-06-04 13:14:58 UTC
my panther doesnt get on the killmails often because the redeemers lock faster :(

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Lugh Crow-Slave
#50 - 2015-06-04 13:31:13 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
my panther doesnt get on the killmails often because the redeemers lock faster :(

Think you got it bad try a battle widow everything locks faster than you lol

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#51 - 2015-06-04 19:03:02 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
my panther doesnt get on the killmails often because the redeemers lock faster :(

Think you got it bad try a battle widow everything locks faster than you lol


So a ship that use 8.3 sec to lock a cruiser (eve hq fitting tool, max skill pilot + squad commander targeting a zealot) is unable to get on KM since the other battleships lock and kill the target first. A single scripted t2 sensor booster makes that 5.2sec lock time

This does NOT sound like a fight, thats the very definision of gank/blob warfare :P
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#52 - 2015-06-04 19:51:49 UTC
That's what BLOPS are meant to do: Covert Cyno, Jump Jump/Bridge Bridge, Lock, Death. Loot. Cloak. Laugh.

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Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#53 - 2015-06-04 20:04:51 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
That's what BLOPS are meant to do: Covert Cyno, Jump Jump/Bridge Bridge, Lock, Death. Loot. Cloak. Laugh.


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Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#54 - 2015-06-04 20:49:20 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
That's what BLOPS are meant to do: Covert Cyno, Jump Jump/Bridge Bridge, Lock, Death. Loot. Cloak. Laugh.


And thats what this whole thread is about, give people a reason to use those ships outside bridging or ganking targets you barely have time to lock before your fleet kill it.

A change where you would engage a target and have to to lock and active your weapon sounds 100x more fun that a fight were all you have to worry about is getting on the KM (killboard green i guess)
Lugh Crow-Slave
#55 - 2015-06-04 22:54:21 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
That's what BLOPS are meant to do: Covert Cyno, Jump Jump/Bridge Bridge, Lock, Death. Loot. Cloak. Laugh.


And thats what this whole thread is about, give people a reason to use those ships outside bridging or ganking targets you barely have time to lock before your fleet kill it.

A change where you would engage a target and have to to lock and active your weapon sounds 100x more fun that a fight were all you have to worry about is getting on the KM (killboard green i guess)


ok but now how much more powerful will you make it in gank blobs


and this isn't just in gank blobs 4-5 SBs can pop a good deal of ships in under the 18 seconds it takes a widow to get a lock or even the 13 when using a faction cloak. the only way i could get it near the 8.5 listed above was with a sebo and a faction cloak

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#56 - 2015-06-04 23:03:58 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
That's what BLOPS are meant to do: Covert Cyno, Jump Jump/Bridge Bridge, Lock, Death. Loot. Cloak. Laugh.


And thats what this whole thread is about, give people a reason to use those ships outside bridging or ganking targets you barely have time to lock before your fleet kill it.

A change where you would engage a target and have to to lock and active your weapon sounds 100x more fun that a fight were all you have to worry about is getting on the KM (killboard green i guess)


ok but now how much more powerful will you make it in gank blobs


and this isn't just in gank blobs 4-5 SBs can pop a good deal of ships in under the 18 seconds it takes a widow to get a lock or even the 13 when using a faction cloak. the only way i could get it near the 8.5 listed above was with a sebo and a faction cloak


Dont need to have the cloak for hotdropping someone, but you are so scared of having a fight you hide you ship a few systems away until you jump on top of a target and destroy it in seconds before you cloak.
Even if you need 18 sec to lock something, the only 3 things that kill it before that is:
-Bait/cyno ship
-Bridged bombers/recon
-Other BLOPs

This lead us back to my previous point, you use way to much firepower (fleet) if the target is dead before you can lock it!
This is not fighting, its making sure you have no chance to loose.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#57 - 2015-06-04 23:06:14 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
That's what BLOPS are meant to do: Covert Cyno, Jump Jump/Bridge Bridge, Lock, Death. Loot. Cloak. Laugh.


Titens were once ment to use AoE doomsdays (not sure if it was planned to use with cyno or if that was a bug/legend they tell younger players :P)
Lugh Crow-Slave
#58 - 2015-06-04 23:11:31 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
[

Dont need to have the cloak for hotdropping someone, but you are so scared of having a fight you hide you ship a few systems away until you jump on top of a target and destroy it in seconds before you cloak.
Even if you need 18 sec to lock something, the only 3 things that kill it before that is:
-Bait/cyno ship
-Bridged bombers/recon
-Other BLOPs

This lead us back to my previous point, you use way to much firepower (fleet) if the target is dead before you can lock it!
This is not fighting, its making sure you have no chance to loose.



but it is a fight and it is one that started long b4 the cyno is even on grid with the target .


and the nature of your fleet requires overwhelming dps to get quick clean kills and then gtfo b4 help comes

ideally you fleet should not be on grid for more than 30s or you have screwed something up. These quick guerrilla fights are what most people enjoy from blops fleets

we don't want something that lets us survive on grid longer nor do we need it

we don't need more incentive to bring the blops on grid (as we do this anyway)

we definitely don't need immunity to D-scan

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#59 - 2015-06-04 23:13:31 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
That's what BLOPS are meant to do: Covert Cyno, Jump Jump/Bridge Bridge, Lock, Death. Loot. Cloak. Laugh.


Titens were once ment to use AoE doomsdays (not sure if it was planned to use with cyno or if that was a bug/legend they tell younger players :P)



and this was broken and over powered BLOPS aren't

blop drops are easy to counter if you know they are coming

very easy to bait out if you know what you are doing

and extremely easy to avoid all together if you know what to watch for

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#60 - 2015-06-04 23:28:30 UTC
What is this, haiku forum?

So...none of your points makes a whit of difference as to whether a BLOPs has the current cloak ability it has, or is immune to d-scan.

If you, "only have to be on field 30s or you're doin' it wrong" during a hotdrop....again, here i go with the logic....the immunity to d-scan has nothing whatsoever to do with this scenario. It doesn't matter if you brought 5 BLOPs or 50. You are committed, you're balls-out, engaged in combat....and uncloaked, under a jump timer, etc...so what does d-scan immunity change here?

Here, let me answer for you;

Black ops are d-scan immune

This does nothing if they are engaged

They might be able to lurk off grid

They might be easier to use as a pig

Your points are irrelevant

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