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Crime & Punishment

 
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C&P Thunderdome (for good maybe)
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Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#161 - 2015-06-04 15:24:20 UTC
any kill reports?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
#162 - 2015-06-04 15:36:26 UTC
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
This weekend works for me Bronson. See you in the finals.

Killmail

Badman Vs. Noragen



There's my last update.

-Badman
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#163 - 2015-06-04 16:08:27 UTC
Glad someone else appreciates the hull tanked VNI.

That being said, maybe there needs to be some sort of requirement to keep your opponent on grid? No need for tackle mods in the current setup seems to lead to a contest of kiting fits...
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#164 - 2015-06-04 16:09:50 UTC
I suppose we COULD do a system similar to the alliance tourney in which each player "bans" a ship or fitting.

Although I personally enjoy the current system of researching what you think he'll bring... And what you wanna counter with...

Up for discussion at the next event.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#165 - 2015-06-04 16:22:50 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
I suppose we COULD do a system similar to the alliance tourney in which each player "bans" a ship or fitting.

Although I personally enjoy the current system of researching what you think he'll bring.. And what you wanna counter with...

Up for discussion at the next event.


Nothing wrong with researching/countering. Badman's damping nomen was clever...just seems silly to have fits brought out that would never see an actual fight because there's zero capacity to keep the opponent on grid. Most of the difficulty/risk involved in kiting comes from the fact that you have to maintain point on your target to actually get a kill, which reduces your margin of error and requires more complex flying than just holding far outside scram/web range indefinitely.

Half the battle with a kite fit is holding point on your opponent until they pop or at least locking them down once you're in control. Would be nice if contest matches reflected this though I understand it's not a simple matter.

Also, standard e-honor griping about ECM; but really I feel like overuse of ECM in 1v1's is just going to lead to droneboat wars. Surprised no one brought out a gila frankly...
Paranoid Loyd
#166 - 2015-06-04 17:03:09 UTC
Sigh, Demerius I like you, you are sharp and you are pretty good at this game but your constant whining about every little thing is starting to get annoying. If you have proposals to fix your perceived issues then present them in the appropriate fashion, but you and I both know a lot of the aspects of the game simply can't be changed. I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of the things you constantly mention but FFS, let it go and just enjoy the damn game.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Azn
Doomheim
#167 - 2015-06-04 17:06:10 UTC
Demerius, let it go mang.

The only alt allowed to post in C&P
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#168 - 2015-06-04 17:34:18 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Sigh, Demerius I like you, you are sharp and are pretty good at this game but your constant whining about every little thing is starting to get annoying. If you have proposals to fix your perceived issues then present them in the appropriate fashion, but you and I both know a lot of the aspects of the game simply can't be changed. I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of the things you constantly mention but FFS, let it go and just enjoy the damn game.


Gives me something to do while I'm (not) working.

I would submit that there are some things which can and possibly will be changed. OGB is a good example that was recently brought up here, which is probably going to get messed with at some point. Skynet is another good example; I can't imagine the sweeping changes to fighter assist were unrelated to the outpouring of complaints on the forum that appeared when certain parties started using that mechanic to farm kills in FW lowsec.

So, most of my posts are an exercise in boredom mitigation and I like to tweak the noses of the bittervets who get overly excited about how good they are at spaceships. But I think it's also clear that forum griping has an effect when it gets loud enough and appears to be warranted. Whether that effect is perceived to be good or bad for the game seems to depend on whose EVE is getting "fixed" or whose risk/reward is being adjusted.


As for my original post, I think you would agree that a huge part of combat in EVE is keeping your opponent from exercising their GTFO option once it becomes clear that their space canoe is taking on water faster than yours is. I figured that as there are a number of smart and only moderately bitter veterans here, someone might have a notion of how to reflect that in a tournament style encounter.
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#169 - 2015-06-04 17:42:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Omar Alharazaad
Azn wrote:
Demerius, let it go mang.

That's a really big f'n carp right there.
They fight like bejesus, but unless you smoke em they are simply no good for eating.

Thunderdome is not about what is probable or practical.
Thunderdome is simple as shizzle. Two men/women enter, one leaves.
Theory and meta beyond it are pretty well meaningless as the interactions between the combatants are what defines it.
Of course this crap wont work in FW, nullblobs, mission flips, OMGROFLSTOMPS from merc alliances and whatnot. It's all about dis guy messing dat guy's stuff up.
In short, all of the worst case scenario nightmares that everyone ***** themselves to nightly before hiding under their bunks is inapplicable. What applies is what each dude brings into the ring.
Long points are well, pointless as leaving grid is bad, m'kay? Scrams still work to shut down MWD fits.
Beyond that.... well, let there be blood.

That said, i really really really do want in on one of these. Ideally against Veers, but he wont play with me, especially after that whole 'blood and feathers' fiasco.


EDIT: Also, I am VERY drunk right now, so I'm not gonna apologize for any spelling errors.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
#170 - 2015-06-04 17:50:34 UTC
I do agree with the main point of your post, at the end of the day, 90% of small gang and solo fights happen within a 28KM bubble. Removing warping out from the equation completely changes the dynamic of the fight, as well as the usable fits. I wouldn't typically fly a double web Ashimmu or a beam fit Nomen because of exactly what you said, I still need to keep the target on grid. The problem I see in a tournament style event, is that if we are worried about warp disruption, we are going to be relegated into those cookie cutter fits that we know work well in most situations, but severely limit our fitting options and are not very interesting for a tournament.

Would my typical Nano Pulse Nomen of beaten that hull tanked VNI? Absolutely not. I think you would be suprised about how long I had to theory craft a perfect counter (that I was able to fly) against a drone boat like a VNI, or Gila, or another kiter like an Orthrus. Many ships had to die on the test server before I was happy with what I had built.

Freeing up those mid slots opens up an entirely new range of fitting options, and while they may not be viable in all 1v1 scenarios, they can still be extremely effective in a small gang enviroment. Lets say you have that kiting Lachesis in your gang taking care of the pointing, and 2-3 Beam Nomens like mine projecting their 350 DPS out to 70KM, now the game has changed.

So lets not make general statements about what has no use in the actual game and whats only useful in a tournament. For me the entire competition has been an interesting excercise, and just being involved in it has helped me become a better player.

-Badman
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#171 - 2015-06-04 18:02:16 UTC
Paraphrasing Badman here. Dicking around in this manner gives us a chance to explore options that are not typically used in standard doctrines. If proven effective they may provide new ideas for gangs to operate with that may screw with current meta trends. Screwing with the meta screws with people. Screwing with people ensures that someone gets off.
If someone gets off, Buddha will not punch this bunny.
If Buddha does not punch this bunny, it may live long enough to make more bunnies.
Now you know where bunnies come from.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#172 - 2015-06-04 18:02:39 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Thunderdome is not about what is probable or practical.
Thunderdome is simple as shizzle. Two men/women enter, one leaves.
Theory and meta beyond it are pretty well meaningless as the interactions between the combatants are what defines it.
Of course this crap wont work in FW, nullblobs, mission flips, OMGROFLSTOMPS from merc alliances and whatnot.

...

Beyond that.... well, let there be blood.

Precisely.

It's amazing what you can come up with when you let go of preconceived notions of PvP fits. The VNI I did the first two Thunderdome matches packed an afterburner and a rack of damps in the mids, the idea being to force my opponent to come to me so I could neut them out. In a "regular" fight, that'd never work; I'd have to chase them down and tackle them, which means an MWD, scram, and web are all but required. Likewise, nano fits that can engage out to crazy long ranges are more viable now too since you don't have to worry about keeping your opponent tackled.

Utility slots that "always" get used on something? Use them on something else.
Worrying about "maximum damage"? Tank your opponent while they wear themselves out, then go for the kill.
Et cetera.

Thunderdome is a ship fitter's dream. Everyone should try it.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#173 - 2015-06-04 19:16:48 UTC
As the guy who lost a match here to a boat that couldn't have pointed me if it wanted to (beam nomen) and won a match here to a boat that I couldn't target (rook) I am all for no bans. I have a lovely vigilant fit that is a hard counter to the jams (I hope it could be anyways) and would get wrecked by either ashimu in round 1 and the VNI I was fielding. However I think it had a solid chance against the nomen. But that's the thing as in all of eve most of the fight is your ship pick/fit. Jams are countered by drones and (insert other jam counters here). Kiting is countered by catching or better kiting fits. neuting is countered by staying the **** outta neut range. But until you land on grid you are never sure what you will be up against. Then Pilot skill comes into play.

But yeah this lets you ruin all meta's and start from scratch. I like it. I see no glaring issues to be addressed. Perhaps every other month we do a C&P Tourney with a different style but what Bronson came up with here had me up for hours the other night theory crafting a ship (that I didn't use). Should reward the innovative if nothing else

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#174 - 2015-06-04 20:52:34 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
I suppose we COULD do a system similar to the alliance tourney in which each player "bans" a ship or fitting.

Although I personally enjoy the current system of researching what you think he'll bring.. And what you wanna counter with...

Up for discussion at the next event.


Nothing wrong with researching/countering. Badman's damping nomen was clever...just seems silly to have fits brought out that would never see an actual fight because there's zero capacity to keep the opponent on grid. Most of the difficulty/risk involved in kiting comes from the fact that you have to maintain point on your target to actually get a kill, which reduces your margin of error and requires more complex flying than just holding far outside scram/web range indefinitely.

Half the battle with a kite fit is holding point on your opponent until they pop or at least locking them down once you're in control. Would be nice if contest matches reflected this though I understand it's not a simple matter.

Also, standard e-honor griping about ECM; but really I feel like overuse of ECM in 1v1's is just going to lead to droneboat wars. Surprised no one brought out a gila frankly...


There isn't anything wrong with ECM. Its part of the game and is counter able. Its no different than being neuted out or damped to zero or TD'd to the point of missing stationary targets.

As for overuse of drone boats, that's already here, EVE wide. I did consider using a Gila, as its a great boat, but I enjoy flying new stuff sometimes, especially for stuff like this.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#175 - 2015-06-04 21:15:32 UTC
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
I do agree with the main point of your post, at the end of the day, 90% of small gang and solo fights happen within a 28KM bubble. Removing warping out from the equation completely changes the dynamic of the fight, as well as the usable fits. I wouldn't typically fly a double web Ashimmu or a beam fit Nomen because of exactly what you said, I still need to keep the target on grid. The problem I see in a tournament style event, is that if we are worried about warp disruption, we are going to be relegated into those cookie cutter fits that we know work well in most situations, but severely limit our fitting options and are not very interesting for a tournament.

Would my typical Nano Pulse Nomen of beaten that hull tanked VNI? Absolutely not. I think you would be suprised about how long I had to theory craft a perfect counter (that I was able to fly) against a drone boat like a VNI, or Gila, or another kiter like an Orthrus. Many ships had to die on the test server before I was happy with what I had built.

Freeing up those mid slots opens up an entirely new range of fitting options, and while they may not be viable in all 1v1 scenarios, they can still be extremely effective in a small gang enviroment. Lets say you have that kiting Lachesis in your gang taking care of the pointing, and 2-3 Beam Nomens like mine projecting their 350 DPS out to 70KM, now the game has changed.

So lets not make general statements about what has no use in the actual game and whats only useful in a tournament. For me the entire competition has been an interesting excercise, and just being involved in it has helped me become a better player.


Boom.

This post says it all, and this is the reason why I enjoy the thunderdome concept here. Its fun, its out of the box, and its FUN. As soon as I lost my last battle, I couldnt wait for the next opportunity to do this again.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#176 - 2015-06-04 21:28:12 UTC
Kitey cruisers with some form of ewar would seem to be the rule here then. Not many brawl fits able to catch things on a grid not limited by the necessity of holding point.

I always thought drones would automatically attack an aggressor even if the ship that launched them is unable to target...was he just outside your drone control range? Because then a DLA would have won that fight.

All the same I look forward to seeing some more interesting fits.
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#177 - 2015-06-04 21:34:41 UTC
I am also in favor of no bans. First of all, for all the reasons listed above. In addition though, implementing bans would be impractical if not impossible. Banning hulls is pointless, "Oh I can't fly Ashimmu, Curse instead then" etc. Banning styles is too broad, "No drone boats, does a neut fit brutix with only 3 guns relying on it's pathetic complement of drones count as a drone boat?"

As for the tournament bracket layout I would like to put forward a proposition, I'll describe it here, but I stole the layout style from the GSL Code S for the StarCraft 2 tournaments.

Group Stage

Each group has 4 players
Players are matched up in pairs. Players A and B fight, and players C and D fight.
Let's say A and C win.
Winners Match comes next, A fights C, the winner advances to the next round.
Let's say A wins again (he's a badass).
So C is still in the Group but A has moved on.
Loosers Match is the next battle. B and D fight. The looser is out of the tournament.
Let's say D loses. D is gone and has to wait for the next tournament.
Final Match. B gets to fight the looser of the Winners match, in this case C.
The winner of of B and C gets to move on to the next round, the looser is out.

From here the rest of the tournament operates on a single elimination model.

Disadvantages: More complicated to setup, requires multiples of 4 to work, more matches in the group stage so it takes longer.

Advantages: More matches = more content, gives losers a chance to make a comeback and advance anyways, winning is still rewarded.

Let me know what you guys think.

AttentionWarning: The next statement is a shameless plug.Attention

If anyone wants to watch some matches to see the model in action, you can watch the group stage of the GSL Code S for free at SC2Casts.com.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#178 - 2015-06-04 21:37:18 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Kitey cruisers with some form of ewar would seem to be the rule here then. Not many brawl fits able to catch things on a grid not limited by the necessity of holding point.

I always thought drones would automatically attack an aggressor even if the ship that launched them is unable to target...was he just outside your drone control range? Because then a DLA would have won that fight.

All the same I look forward to seeing some more interesting fits.


Drone aggression mechanics are unreliable at best, and downright atrocious at worst. Don't count on those bastards ever doing what you want them to.

I've seen them attack hostiles of their own accord without me asking, and I've seen them casually orbit me while hostiles slowly eat away at my structure. I don't pretend to understand when they will and will not attack whoever is attacking me.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
#179 - 2015-06-04 22:00:25 UTC
Tengu Grib wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Kitey cruisers with some form of ewar would seem to be the rule here then. Not many brawl fits able to catch things on a grid not limited by the necessity of holding point.

I always thought drones would automatically attack an aggressor even if the ship that launched them is unable to target...was he just outside your drone control range? Because then a DLA would have won that fight.

All the same I look forward to seeing some more interesting fits.


Drone aggression mechanics are unreliable at best, and downright atrocious at worst. Don't count on those bastards ever doing what you want them to.

I've seen them attack hostiles of their own accord without me asking, and I've seen them casually orbit me while hostiles slowly eat away at my structure. I don't pretend to understand when they will and will not attack whoever is attacking me.



And that was exactly what I was counting on in that fight.

-Badman
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#180 - 2015-06-05 00:06:35 UTC
Badman Lasermouse wrote:
Tengu Grib wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Kitey cruisers with some form of ewar would seem to be the rule here then. Not many brawl fits able to catch things on a grid not limited by the necessity of holding point.

I always thought drones would automatically attack an aggressor even if the ship that launched them is unable to target...was he just outside your drone control range? Because then a DLA would have won that fight.

All the same I look forward to seeing some more interesting fits.


Drone aggression mechanics are unreliable at best, and downright atrocious at worst. Don't count on those bastards ever doing what you want them to.

I've seen them attack hostiles of their own accord without me asking, and I've seen them casually orbit me while hostiles slowly eat away at my structure. I don't pretend to understand when they will and will not attack whoever is attacking me.



And that was exactly what I was counting on in that fight.


It's a pretty safe bet that a persons drones will betray them unless they can force them to attack by targeting and giving the order.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.