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How to move BS's safely in/out of C3/C4 WH's?
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Sespria Secantus
Doomheim
#1 - 2015-06-02 09:36:36 UTC
Hi everyone, I currently run level 4 missions in 2 armor tanked NM's and was thinking of doing Lev 5's but decided it wasn't worth it. Incursions wait time is to long so that leaves me leaning towards C3/C4 wormholes. In addition to the 2 NM's I have a cloaky scanner/salvager and a armor/skirm link boosting alt that would do the scouting. bookmarkings, etc.. Before starting I wanted to get some feedback before plunging into a very unpleasant death so first I wanted to know if just one of my NM's can do C3/C4 without issues and second how do I go about safely moving this ship in/ out of those WH's. Or is it better to use a different ship?

Highs
4x Tachyon Beam Laser II with NavyMulti ~ 868 dps @ 42+41
2x Drone link Augmentor II

Mids
1x Large Micro Jump Drive
Gist X-Type 100MN AB ~ 973m/s
2x Tracking Computer II ~ optimal range script
3x Cap Recharger II

Lows
1x DCU II
2x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
2x Heat Sink II
1x True Sansha Large Armor Repairer

Rigs
1x Large CCC II
2x Large CCC

Drones
5x Hammerheads II ~ 144 dps
5x Warriors II ~ 80 dps

I posted this exact same message in the Sticky thread "what do I kill Sleepers with" but it's taking ages to get a response....so.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#2 - 2015-06-02 10:28:08 UTC
If anyone tells you those nightmares are a good idea for c3 and up, he's trolling.
Newt BlackCompany
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2015-06-02 11:08:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Newt BlackCompany
Switch to Rattlesnakes for c3, c4, and some c5 sites (assuming some dufus doesn't escallate it on you Shocked)

Rattlesnake fit should use drones, active tank in the mids, cap-transfer in the highs. 2 of these in Remote-cap-transfer, local shield rep mode can achieve 2k dps tank and 1200 dps, probably more with a booster alt. They cost about 600M each.

C4 anoms make about 100M per site, c5 anoms make about 300M per site. Not sure about c3's.

Can't comment about nightmares. Never was brave enough to bring one into a wh.

edit: removed offending apostrophes.
Sespria Secantus
Doomheim
#4 - 2015-06-02 13:20:35 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
If anyone tells you those nightmares are a good idea for c3 and up, he's trolling.


Thank you for the warning. Out of all the chars I can play, I can fly: shield/armor tank NM's training towards Paladin in 3 more months, a Sleipnir with near max skills (Surgical Strike and Trajectory Anal are still at lev 4), A max laser boat Legion/Zealot training towards Loki, and 2 RR Domis (Galentee BS at lev 4). I also have a shield/armor/skirmish booster alt. Out of all these ships that I've access to, which ones would you recommend for C3/C4 wormholes? And is it better to daytrip or to live in one?

P.S I can already solo C2's in a confessor/svipul, but the pay per site is rather lowish.
Sespria Secantus
Doomheim
#5 - 2015-06-02 13:23:37 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
If anyone tells you those nightmares are a good idea for c3 and up, he's trolling.


Just out of curiosity can you tell me why NM's are a bad idea for doing C3/C4 WH's?
Sespria Secantus
Doomheim
#6 - 2015-06-02 13:26:50 UTC
Newt BlackCompany wrote:
Switch to Rattlesnakes for c3's, c4's, and some c5 sites (assuming some dufus doesn't escallate it on you Shocked)

Rattlesnake fit should use drones, active tank in the mids, cap-transfer in the highs. 2 of these in Remote-cap-transfer, local shield rep mode can achieve 2k dps tank and 1200 dps, probably more with a booster alt. They cost about 600M each.

C4 anoms make about 100M per site, c5 anoms make about 300M per site. Not sure about c3's.

Can't comment about nightmares. Never was brave enough to bring one into a wh.




Rattlesnakes is a ship that I'm very envious of atm since I'm nowhere near being able to fly one (about 6 months away). Can you post a good fit for me please, I need some motivation for the long wait.
Sten Taxi
No trouble in the midst
B.E.A.R.S.
#7 - 2015-06-02 13:59:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Sten Taxi
Sespria Secantus wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
If anyone tells you those nightmares are a good idea for c3 and up, he's trolling.


Thank you for the warning. Out of all the chars I can play, I can fly: shield/armor tank NM's training towards Paladin in 3 more months, a Sleipnir with near max skills (Surgical Strike and Trajectory Anal are still at lev 4), A max laser boat Legion/Zealot training towards Loki, and 2 RR Domis (Galentee BS at lev 4). I also have a shield/armor/skirmish booster alt. Out of all these ships that I've access to, which ones would you recommend for C3/C4 wormholes? And is it better to daytrip or to live in one?

P.S I can already solo C2's in a confessor/svipul, but the pay per site is rather lowish.



Sespria Secantus wrote:
Newt BlackCompany wrote:
Switch to Rattlesnakes for c3's, c4's, and some c5 sites (assuming some dufus doesn't escallate it on you Shocked)

Rattlesnake fit should use drones, active tank in the mids, cap-transfer in the highs. 2 of these in Remote-cap-transfer, local shield rep mode can achieve 2k dps tank and 1200 dps, probably more with a booster alt. They cost about 600M each.

C4 anoms make about 100M per site, c5 anoms make about 300M per site. Not sure about c3's.

Can't comment about nightmares. Never was brave enough to bring one into a wh.




Rattlesnakes is a ship that I'm very envious of atm since I'm nowhere near being able to fly one (about 6 months away). Can you post a good fit for me please, I need some motivation for the long wait.



So you can fly RR Dominix and Nightmare, how can you not fly a rattlesnake?

Once you have figured that out, here is the fit

[Rattlesnake, boxingsnake]

Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Co-Processor II
Internal Force Field Array I

Pith X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Large Micro Jump Drive
EM Ward Field II

Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II
Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Egress Port Maximizer I
Large Egress Port Maximizer I
Large Egress Port Maximizer II


Gecko x1
Garde II x2


For C3 you can swap out alot of tank for application mods
Zand Vor
OpSec.
Wrong Hole.
#8 - 2015-06-02 14:14:39 UTC
So a few concerns.

1.) The Neuting in C3s and C4s starts to get into the "serious business" category. Not sure your fits are ready to handle that, but I haven't put them into any program yet to test it.
2.) Nightmares are traditionally shield fit, not armor fit?
3.) In C4s, the range you shoot at can get long. Expect fights to start and stay in the 120k range mark. I think the NM can handle that, but at extremely reduced efficiency? And it probably would require fitting changes.
4.) Incoming Sleepr DPS is significantly higher in C3s and C4s than Level 4 missions. I aim for 800 ehp/sec tank for C3s, and at least 1200 ehp/sec for C4s. In C4s, the only ships that I've seen that can handle BOTH the DPS and the Neut pressure are ones that utilize RR, remote cap feeds, Marauders, or special circumstances (Shield Rattle in C4 Pulsars).

Please fix wormhole combat sites: c1 20mil - c2 40 mil - c3 80 mil - c4 160 mil - c5 320 mil - c6 640 mil
Hidden Fremen
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#9 - 2015-06-02 14:25:15 UTC
The use of apostrophes lately is ******* outrageous. Apostrophes don't make plurals...
Newt BlackCompany
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2015-06-02 15:23:24 UTC
Hidden Fremen wrote:
The use of apostrophes lately is ******* outrageous. Apostrophes don't make plurals...


Lol, right you are! 'Tis fixed!
Newt BlackCompany
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2015-06-02 15:28:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Newt BlackCompany
Sespria Secantus wrote:


Rattlesnakes is a ship that I'm very envious of atm since I'm nowhere near being able to fly one (about 6 months away). Can you post a good fit for me please, I need some motivation for the long wait.


I use one that is similar to Sten Taxi's fit, above. Plug it into EFT and see what you can do.

I swap the MJD for another Shield Boost Amplifier II, and I also don't use geckos, instead preferring to swap among a mix of hobgoblins, bouncers, and gardes. Geckos are nice, but they are expensive, and the sleepers seem to like to munch on them.

Edit: may need to rethink Geckos as bouncers and gardes are being nerfed in the current patch, not sure yet how bad.

Also, for a c4, you might need an additional Drone Link Augmentor because some of the spawns are at a very long distance, even with perfect warpin points. (For c4 sites, always mark a warpin with a cloaky before running a site, otherwise the spawn distance is silly.)
Newt BlackCompany
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2015-06-02 15:32:49 UTC
Also, I think a pair of Paladins is ideal for C4 and even C5 sites (non-escallated), so don't abandon those.

They are, of course, substantially more expensive than 2x rattlesnakes (roughly 2-3x) for roughly 50% more dps and tank (in my poor EFT warrior-ing attempts anyway)
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#13 - 2015-06-02 16:39:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
I was refering to the fits.
Generally you can use your highslots to create cap, using 2 transfers and 3 egress rigs. Then shieldtank it, use an X-type pith booster since they're only 100ish mil, and get all those heat sinks. (Similar to the rattlesnake above, with c-type hardeners instead of boost amps cause you don't have that much CPU) Then pay attention your nightmares don't boat apart from each other.
Tim Nering
R3d Fire
#14 - 2015-06-02 17:12:27 UTC
yeah ur fits need some wormhole adjustment for the particulars of w space. i might post later with some stuff, kind of running out the door atm.

but here is what i did:
c1 c2: passive shield cerb
c3: either madauder (dont do this) or 2 RR domis (much better)
c4: passive shield snake or RR domis
c5: paladin
c6: never bothered to do it

there are other ways especialy in regard to the tengu but i dont talk about things ive never done.

also i just want to let you know that if you fly a paladin and you got links, FFS fit it t2. there is no reason whatsoever to fit it 4 bil fancy. you can tank the site with links and a t2 fit. its makes it so cheap and when u get ganked and lose it.... it is no big deal that thing paid for itself in 3 sites.

Stop Caring Start Fragging! Join R3D Fire Today!
Pook600
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#15 - 2015-06-02 17:49:05 UTC
Have you considered joining a WH corp?
Ghenghis Kralj
Big Johnson's
#16 - 2015-06-02 19:18:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Ghenghis Kralj
If level 5 missions aren't doing it for you, c3 and c4 sites aren't either. Just sayin'.

granted, I am not sure what your reasons were against level 5 missions.
Sespria Secantus
Doomheim
#17 - 2015-06-02 22:57:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Sespria Secantus
Sten Taxi wrote:
Sespria Secantus wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
If anyone tells you those nightmares are a good idea for c3 and up, he's trolling.


Thank you for the warning. Out of all the chars I can play, I can fly: shield/armor tank NM's training towards Paladin in 3 more months, a Sleipnir with near max skills (Surgical Strike and Trajectory Anal are still at lev 4), A max laser boat Legion/Zealot training towards Loki, and 2 RR Domis (Galentee BS at lev 4). I also have a shield/armor/skirmish booster alt. Out of all these ships that I've access to, which ones would you recommend for C3/C4 wormholes? And is it better to daytrip or to live in one?

P.S I can already solo C2's in a confessor/svipul, but the pay per site is rather lowish.



Sespria Secantus wrote:
Newt BlackCompany wrote:
Switch to Rattlesnakes for c3's, c4's, and some c5 sites (assuming some dufus doesn't escallate it on you Shocked)

Rattlesnake fit should use drones, active tank in the mids, cap-transfer in the highs. 2 of these in Remote-cap-transfer, local shield rep mode can achieve 2k dps tank and 1200 dps, probably more with a booster alt. They cost about 600M each.

C4 anoms make about 100M per site, c5 anoms make about 300M per site. Not sure about c3's.

Can't comment about nightmares. Never was brave enough to bring one into a wh.




Rattlesnakes is a ship that I'm very envious of atm since I'm nowhere near being able to fly one (about 6 months away). Can you post a good fit for me please, I need some motivation for the long wait.



So you can fly RR Dominix and Nightmare, how can you not fly a rattlesnake?

Once you have figured that out, here is the fit

[Rattlesnake, boxingsnake]

Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Co-Processor II
Internal Force Field Array I

Pith X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Large Micro Jump Drive
EM Ward Field II

Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II
Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Egress Port Maximizer I
Large Egress Port Maximizer I
Large Egress Port Maximizer II


Gecko x1
Garde II x2


For C3 you can swap out alot of tank for application mods


Oh wait, I can fly this once I max out Caldari BS, but I thought you needed missile skills to fly the Rattler or else your drones would get eaten by the sleepers. And the RR Domi and NM are trained on separate chars ( one with drones skills the other with laser/turret skills)
Sespria Secantus
Doomheim
#18 - 2015-06-02 23:49:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Sespria Secantus
Zand Vor wrote:
So a few concerns.

1.) The Neuting in C3s and C4s starts to get into the "serious business" category. Not sure your fits are ready to handle that, but I haven't put them into any program yet to test it.
2.) Nightmares are traditionally shield fit, not armor fit?
3.) In C4s, the range you shoot at can get long. Expect fights to start and stay in the 120k range mark. I think the NM can handle that, but at extremely reduced efficiency? And it probably would require fitting changes.
4.) Incoming Sleepr DPS is significantly higher in C3s and C4s than Level 4 missions. I aim for 800 ehp/sec tank for C3s, and at least 1200 ehp/sec for C4s. In C4s, the only ships that I've seen that can handle BOTH the DPS and the Neut pressure are ones that utilize RR, remote cap feeds, Marauders, or special circumstances (Shield Rattle in C4 Pulsars).


Well I can both shield & Armor tank in my NM's, but I found armor tanking them to be the most cap efficient b/t the two without relying on cap boosters. I thought the NM was on the same level as the Paladin when it comes to c3/c4's since you don't have to worry about ewar, but it looks like I may be wrong. I'll be done training for the Paladin in 2-3 more months. So would a Paladin be able to solo C3/C4 with armor boosting links, if so what fit would you recommend? Also if you would be so kind as to give me some advice on how I'd be able to safely move that beast to & fro WH's, low/null sec back to HS?
Sespria Secantus
Doomheim
#19 - 2015-06-03 00:36:27 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
I was refering to the fits.
Generally you can use your highslots to create cap, using 2 transfers and 3 egress rigs. Then shieldtank it, use an X-type pith booster since they're only 100ish mil, and get all those heat sinks. (Similar to the rattlesnake above, with c-type hardeners instead of boost amps cause you don't have that much CPU) Then pay attention your nightmares don't boat apart from each other.


I see , so my level 4 mission fit is no good for C3/C4's, ty Lloyd. So it's a shield fit huh, then what about this fit using 2 NM's with Siege/Skirmish Links?

High Slot
4x Tachyon Beam Laser II + MultiNavy 900 DPS @ 43.6 + 42.5 K
2x Large Remote Cap Transmitter II

Mids
1x Gist C-type 100 MN AB
1x Pithum C-type EM Ward Amplifier
1x Pithum C-type Thermic Dissipation Amplifier
1x Pithum C-type Kinetic Deflection Amplifier
1x Tracking Computer II (optimal range script)
1x Heavy Cap Booster II (navy 800's)
1x Pith X-type X-Large Shield Booster

Lows
1x DC II
3x Heat Sink II
2x Tracking Enhancer II

Rigs
1x Large Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer II
1x Large Anti- Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
1x Large Anti- EM Screen Reinforcer II

Drones
10x Hobs II
5x Warriors II

Shield Resist Profile with links 73 80 78 75
Sespria Secantus
Doomheim
#20 - 2015-06-03 00:41:30 UTC
Pook600 wrote:
Have you considered joining a WH corp?


If I could find a noob friendly one without any awoxers, I'd consider them.
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