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Quick question regarding OGB and neutral logistics

Author
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2015-06-01 20:12:44 UTC
OGB has already been discussed to death in FW subforum. I think it will eventually get looked at but it's not exactly #1 on CCP's priority list.

OGB needs to be on killboards. As far as lowsec goes the most common suggestion was a weapons timer so the booster can't immediately dock or jump systems if aggressed. Obviously this would be irrelevant for highsec as long as the booster has CONCORD protection. A suspect or LE timer would be required to make them vulnerable.

I'd love to see cloaky T3's used for boosting in highsec. Yes they are cloaked most of the time and still nigh unscannable but if you do managed to pinpoint one or catch it on a gate...they're generally paper tanked. One nado will solve that problem.

Forcing them on grid might actually cause people to use some fairly neat and under used ships (command ships) in their intended role which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.
Cyclo Hexanol
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#22 - 2015-06-01 20:19:48 UTC
Clara Dunier wrote:

Scouts or neutral haulers don't influence the fight and can't be considered force multipliers.


You have no idea how much of a tell this is that you haven't participated in hisec war seriously. Scouts are probably THE most important tool in your toolbox. You will generally have your main, train up a scout, and THEN if you think you can swing it train up links or cross train the scout into a link ship. Links won't help you when you jump into that 5 man T3 gate camp while a scout tells you about the exact degree of pain you are about to try and kill.

This is all fine as it is the difference between High/Low/Null/WH. In low you have to know and account for gate guns and pirate status in your fights to help determine the outcome and you have to worry about capitals somewhat (mostly carriers). In nullsec you don't have to worry about any of the gate gun mechanics but still have to consider aggression timers and the possibility of supers and caps dropping on you depending on where you are. Lastly in WHs you have to deal with caps, polarization, and lack of local.

These are all very different parts of space with very distinctive play styles. The way to succeed in lowsec is not the same in nullsec and we have seen this time and time again when nullseccers take a plunge into lowsec because of leaving an alliance or losing space. You will see them losing supers and such trying to grind down POCOs and lone sieged dreads on towers because you can get away with that in nullsec due to the emptiness.
In essence, learn the play styles of the space you are going to fight in or travel through. But coming into the C&P forums and talking about possible changes to make one play style more like another that you do isn't really going to be recieved well.

I would highly recommend taking an alt and jumping into a wardec alliance in hisec just to see how different the game play really is. You will quickly realize that by the time you see your enemy (if they are competent) they have already been talking about you on comms for 5-10 minutes.


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King of Stating the Obvious 2015

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Elected by: Random forum alt

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McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#23 - 2015-06-01 20:20:27 UTC  |  Edited by: McChicken Combo HalfMayo
Clara Dunier wrote:
The questions I'm asking revolve around usage risk free OGB and neutral logistics to see opinions of the community that frequents this section of the forums cause in a sense it affects them probably the most.

Suspect flagged boosters would not be at much risk. Every booster used outside of highsec is "suspect flagged". You either park your Command Ship well inside the undock ring or you put your cloaky T3 in a safe. The change you've proposed would have a far more drastic affect on fleet booster AWOXing than it would on neutral boosting repercussions. This inclines me to in fact support your suggestion, but purely for the luls.

Neutral logistics going criminal means no one can use neutral logistics effectively. Suicide Augorers? You'd get more bang for your buck dropping a suicide Catalyst on your target. The motivation here is understandable. The meta in highsec PVP has become that having friendly logi is a basic requirement sometimes even in 1v1 engagements. It's obnoxious but this isn't the solution.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin

Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#24 - 2015-06-01 21:38:39 UTC
Boosters should get a yellow card (if neutral) and a weapons timer if member using their boosts become stressed.

Why should this be different from anything else in EVE in the aspect of risk vs reward? If you want the boosts, you should have to take the risks.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

lord xavier
Rubbed Out
#25 - 2015-06-02 02:32:05 UTC  |  Edited by: lord xavier
Cut OfGB to 50% of what they are now. Make OnGB slightly strong than now. Start using OnGB and force people to use OnGB if they want equal level. Boosting characters are not hard, especially if your main already flys command ships. You spend a few months training Armor/Skirmish or Shield/Skirmish or whatever, make yourself the OnGB. Give them a suspect flag if boosting someone who becames strained. if they are out of the alliance/corporation who is engaged in the wardec (neutral boosts), give them GCC and have concord blow them up for aggressing outside of a wardec, since they are amplifying a persons ship who is aggressing, they are also helping in the aggression. So give them aggression as if I were shooting someone I am not wardecced against.

Also, booster alts are not hard to train. I trained a scouting alt into one with minimal effort. Stop being terrible and complaining about boosts ALL the time. Just make a booster and get on the same level as many others have turned to over the last five years. I understand that this Off grid boosting is "destorying solo pvp." But I am sorry, I am around alot of lowsec space on a few different characters. Very little of eve truely solos in lowsec. Solo went away when people were not willing to lose, so they would bring more friends, or if they were in trouble they would scream for help and friends would come. Boosters didnt kill solo, greed over willingness to learn how to fly ships was what killed solo.
"Everyone runs boosting alts, this is a problem!!" No its not and no they dont. Get better and stop thinking every loss you have is because someone is boosting. A lot of people do not actually boost, nor can they be bothered to bring links for a 2-7 man gang.

Highsec wardecs, HA. People dont go to solo stuff. They go to buff killboards. Hardly anyone war decs to push a group out of a system they want for some odd reason in an attempt at "High sec sov claim." or whatever.

Non-afflianted out of Corp/Alliance Logistics that repairs someone who is in a wardec - Give them GCC and make concord come blow them up in a 0.5 or higher. Give them a security hit in a 0.1-0.4. Make them stay in the corp/alliance with the wardeccers.
Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#26 - 2015-06-02 03:00:20 UTC
lord xavier wrote:
Cut OfGB to 50% of what they are now. Make OnGB slightly strong than now. Start using OnGB and force people to use OnGB if they want equal level. Boosting characters are not hard, especially if your main already flys command ships. You spend a few months training Armor/Skirmish or Shield/Skirmish or whatever, make yourself the OnGB. Give them a suspect flag if boosting someone who becames strained. if they are out of the alliance/corporation who is engaged in the wardec (neutral boosts), give them GCC and have concord blow them up for aggressing outside of a wardec, since they are amplifying a persons ship who is aggressing, they are also helping in the aggression. So give them aggression as if I were shooting someone I am not wardecced against.

Also, booster alts are not hard to train. I trained a scouting alt into one with minimal effort. Stop being terrible and complaining about boosts ALL the time. Just make a booster and get on the same level as many others have turned to over the last five years. I understand that this Off grid boosting is "destorying solo pvp." But I am sorry, I am around alot of lowsec space on a few different characters. Very little of eve truely solos in lowsec. Solo went away when people were not willing to lose, so they would bring more friends, or if they were in trouble they would scream for help and friends would come. Boosters didnt kill solo, greed over willingness to learn how to fly ships was what killed solo.
"Everyone runs boosting alts, this is a problem!!" No its not and no they dont. Get better and stop thinking every loss you have is because someone is boosting. A lot of people do not actually boost, nor can they be bothered to bring links for a 2-7 man gang.

Highsec wardecs, HA. People dont go to solo stuff. They go to buff killboards. Hardly anyone war decs to push a group out of a system they want for some odd reason in an attempt at "High sec sov claim." or whatever.

Non-afflianted out of Corp/Alliance Logistics that repairs someone who is in a wardec - Give them GCC and make concord come blow them up in a 0.5 or higher. Give them a security hit in a 0.1-0.4. Make them stay in the corp/alliance with the wardeccers.

gcc is a terrible idea and you should feel terrible for agreeing with it. Stop saying NPC's do my work for me. You worded a HTFU post and set the concrete with your own tears.

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

lord xavier
Rubbed Out
#27 - 2015-06-02 03:23:03 UTC  |  Edited by: lord xavier
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:

gcc is a terrible idea and you should feel terrible for agreeing with it. Stop saying NPC's do my work for me. You worded a HTFU post and set the concrete with your own tears.

I dont feel bad for ever suggesting a way to make station "mercenaries" lives harder. Though that was such an aggressive way of saying "No, I don't want people to actually know I have a booster sitting 1,000,000 km off the rens undock." or the neutral logistics in Naku, Uedama and Sivala. It's pretty hard to believe that any corporation or alliance doesn't use current game mechanics to the advantage such as neutral logistics or neutral boosters. So, change the mechanic, find new mechanics to put in your favor. I set it with my own tears huh? I guess I am just so jaded and crushed from my experiences in high sec with the unfair ability that you all have with neutral boosting alts over me. It is like everyone in high sec is just shooting at me.

Oh, right I forgot to express how mean and rude you are. I am going to go cry and uninstall eve while doubling all your isk while I leave in Jita.

Edit: Sorry, forgot the finger movement on "Mercenaries"
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2015-06-02 03:24:56 UTC
This is a good time for me to say mining boosts should also yellow card the booster.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#29 - 2015-06-02 03:46:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Noragen Neirfallas
Leto Thule wrote:
This is a good time for me to say mining boosts should also yellow card the booster.

TBH I'm all for everybody in the corp and/or fleet of any aggressor to go flashy. This would make for some fun and interesting (emergent) gameplay.

@ the other guy
Also when I am in Rens my booster is on grid. My Reps are on grid. My secret is the ability to reship after being ship scanned so aggressors show up with all the wrong ships. It's amazing what swapping to a different fit on the same hull can achieve. Hell simply look in local all my ALT's are quite obvious. (hint check out my kill board to see similarities)

PS you won't find me in Rens (other then moving assets around) for the next 3 months or so

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#30 - 2015-06-02 03:58:32 UTC
Oh to clarify at this point I agree that boosts in general are broken and need to be worked on. But as you may have noticed I also think a lot of High-Sec mechanics need a rework and singling one out without the others is silly. However getting a NPC to do ANYTHING a player currently does or should do is bad. I see the need for concord with suicide ganks (policing that ourselves would be impossible) but reps hell I have enough random rep boats on my main and alts boards to show that these can easily be dealt with by a properly prepared force. Whining about concord need to deal with them just shows your lack of preparation for the fight you wish to undertake.

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#31 - 2015-06-02 04:00:36 UTC
Actually here is a fun mechanic

did you know it is possible to rep a player who has a limited engagement with another player without going suspect under a very specific set of circumstances

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#32 - 2015-06-02 04:06:19 UTC
i would love seeing ogbs and logistics on kbs. However, judging from previous dev comments the way how killmails are generated is kinda a mess (just look at how buggy it is). And they don't really want to touch it.

I would also assume having OGBs on kms would require to wait for brain in a box since BIAB refactors also fleetboosting code if i understood that correctly. (and devs don't touch code which will be changed anyway for other reasons, its like fixing your old car before buying a new one)

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2015-06-02 04:42:30 UTC
Still looking for the previous OGB threadnaught.
Cyclo Hexanol
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#34 - 2015-06-02 05:02:59 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
This is a good time for me to say mining boosts should also yellow card the booster.


Better yet.
How about mining boosts that can't be activated inside of a POS shield.
This should provide more content in all different security levels and provide me with a steady supply of juicy space whales.

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King of Stating the Obvious 2015

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Elected by: Random forum alt

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Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#35 - 2015-06-02 05:16:19 UTC
Cyclo Hexanol wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
This is a good time for me to say mining boosts should also yellow card the booster.


Better yet.
How about mining boosts that can't be activated inside of a POS shield.
This should provide more content in all different security levels and provide me with a steady supply of juicy space whales.

When I'm active I make a point of whaling at least once a month Lol

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2015-06-02 11:29:00 UTC
Cyclo Hexanol wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
This is a good time for me to say mining boosts should also yellow card the booster.


Better yet.
How about mining boosts that can't be activated inside of a POS shield.
This should provide more content in all different security levels and provide me with a steady supply of juicy space whales.


That too.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#37 - 2015-06-02 18:38:10 UTC
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Clara Dunier wrote:
Intel is valuable tool however doesn't affect the fight once the fight is started. OGB is actively participating in the fight and can be the difference between the fight being won or lost with no risk.

I don't have any issues as how hs is currently working, and you shouldnt make everybody vulnerable to wars cause that is just wrong on so many levels but that is not the topic and I'm not interested in that.

The questions I'm asking revolve around usage risk free OGB and neutral logistics to see opinions of the community that frequents this section of the forums cause in a sense it affects them probably the most.

You sir have no clue about how Intel and baiting works in high sec if you think Intel is not fluid and is not a constant factor in a good fight


Here's the punchline. There is no way to draw a line and flag a suspect until shots are fired. Sure intel is important and all that, but for flagging purposes in the game it's totally useless.

Once shots are fired it's time to start applying flags and timers and all the other crap. So what can the game actually prove:

1. guys are shooting each other
2. guys are repping combatants
3. guys are boosting combatants

These can be proven on the server so they can be used for flagging.

Little Sally Rottencrotch, who set the whole fight up in a covert ops is sitting there claoked watching with glee. Nothing in the game connects her to the fight, so no matter how important you may think Little Sally is, there can never be a flag.
Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#38 - 2015-06-02 22:59:05 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Clara Dunier wrote:
Intel is valuable tool however doesn't affect the fight once the fight is started. OGB is actively participating in the fight and can be the difference between the fight being won or lost with no risk.

I don't have any issues as how hs is currently working, and you shouldnt make everybody vulnerable to wars cause that is just wrong on so many levels but that is not the topic and I'm not interested in that.

The questions I'm asking revolve around usage risk free OGB and neutral logistics to see opinions of the community that frequents this section of the forums cause in a sense it affects them probably the most.

You sir have no clue about how Intel and baiting works in high sec if you think Intel is not fluid and is not a constant factor in a good fight


Here's the punchline. There is no way to draw a line and flag a suspect until shots are fired. Sure intel is important and all that, but for flagging purposes in the game it's totally useless.

Once shots are fired it's time to start applying flags and timers and all the other crap. So what can the game actually prove:

1. guys are shooting each other
2. guys are repping combatants
3. guys are boosting combatants

These can be proven on the server so they can be used for flagging.

Little Sally Rottencrotch, who set the whole fight up in a covert ops is sitting there claoked watching with glee. Nothing in the game connects her to the fight, so no matter how important you may think Little Sally is, there can never be a flag.

Invite random scrub a to fleet. Place random scrub a in squad command. Shoot an ALT. Random scrub a was boosting according to the server because this is how boosts work. Random scrub a is now suspect. Boosts don't work like an active targeted assistance mod.

Now regardless of what the server can determine scouts and neutral haulers take a much more active role in day to day high sec then boosts do. Why can I not simply declare war on my neutral scouts reps haulers and boosts without the corp being rolled. I've taken the time to identify my enemies support characters but there is nothing I can do about any of them preemptively. Focus on the real issue not just the latest 'high sec is too hard' thing. PS my boost toon is my hauler. Guess what he spends more time doing when at war with somebody competent

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#39 - 2015-06-02 23:11:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Adriel Malakai
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Invite random scrub a to fleet. Place random scrub a in squad command. Shoot an ALT. Random scrub a was boosting according to the server because this is how boosts work. Random scrub a is now suspect. Boosts don't work like an active targeted assistance mod.


This was my initial thought as well, but is pretty easily handled. Make it work based on active boost modules - that uses the current green/yellow/red safety system.

Again, not saying this is a good course of action, just saying it's easily implemented.
Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#40 - 2015-06-03 01:59:12 UTC
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Invite random scrub a to fleet. Place random scrub a in squad command. Shoot an ALT. Random scrub a was boosting according to the server because this is how boosts work. Random scrub a is now suspect. Boosts don't work like an active targeted assistance mod.


This was my initial thought as well, but is pretty easily handled. Make it work based on active boost modules, that uses the current green/yellow/red safety system.

Again, not saying this is a good course of action, just saying it's easily implemented.

True but it would mess with the current fleet system too much. The whole boost systems needs to be reworked

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

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