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A Message Regarding "Hyperdunking"

First post First post First post
Author
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1561 - 2015-05-28 06:12:26 UTC
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:


The criminal timer is supposed to mean that you are prevented from operating while under it, which is why you can't warp with it running.
If the purpose of the GCC timer was to completely shut you down, then you wouldn't be able to board a ship while under a GCC timer.

[/quote]

I heard that the game was about freedom for players to do stupid things, so long as that stupid thing wasn't gamebreaking for everyone else and only hurt them.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

Solstice Punk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1562 - 2015-05-28 12:05:29 UTC
Maxpie wrote:
Counselor Gina wrote:
I'm fairly new - not a ganker or a freighter, so I really have no horse in this race - but I've always had a question.

It seems like the vast majority of contested methods of attack all come down to bumping not being considered an act of aggression. Why is it that way? Bumping can almost indefinitely prevent warp (right?), and as long as your locked (another act of non-aggression), you can't log off either? I get bumps happen non-aggressively from time to time - but freighters tell me (I contract them a ton) they get bumped for 10, 20, 30 minutes and more. If this is not an act of aggression, why is my scram or point?

Again, I'm pretty ambivalent to it either way, I'm just wondering the historical roots for this decision?



Nobody seems to have a real answer to this question. I have no issue with ganking freighters, but I don't think someone should essentially have the ability to keep me from being able to log off for an unreasonable amount of time. I have choose between geting ganked while offline, or to stay up all night at the whim of someone else, because someone wants to lock and bump my ship endlessly? That's just poor gameplay. Put a time limit on it, for example, say gank within 20 minutes or let the ship go otherwise you are griefing.

The forum-griefer here necro'd a thread that was over a month lost in the void already.

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Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#1563 - 2015-05-28 15:22:45 UTC
Welcome to Eve, where everything is a game feature until it gets exploited into oblivion.

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

Mag's
Azn Empire
#1564 - 2015-05-28 21:09:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
13kr1d1 wrote:
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:


If the purpose of the GCC timer was to completely shut you down, then you wouldn't be able to board a ship while under a GCC timer.



I heard that the game was about freedom for players to do stupid things, so long as that stupid thing wasn't gamebreaking for everyone else and only hurt them.

So how does that change this situation in anyway?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Paranoid Loyd
#1565 - 2015-05-28 21:22:33 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
Makari Aeron wrote:
Falcon, please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this contradict the ruling from 3 years ago?

http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-notification-boomerang-avoiding-concord-in-high-security-space.-updated/

EDIT: or is it because the hyperdunker loses their ship, they aren't actually "avoiding" CONCORD?

I obviously don't set policy but there's a big difference between the two and so it's reasonable you'd treat them differently.

The boomerang allowed you to get a ****-ton more damage out of a single ship - this just lets you get a lot more damage out of a single pilot in a specific timeframe at a cost of increased ships. With the boomerang (before it was banned) I could clear out most of an ice belt in a single tornado by warping to the top and bottom, alphaing, then warping away before i got blown up - I'd die eventually, but I'd kill way more ships per lost tornado. This doesn't have the same ability to let me get way more out of a single ship before it explodes.


People boomerang all the time when camping enemy militia trade hubs in highsec.


You do realize there is a difference between Concord and Faction Navies right?

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1566 - 2015-05-28 23:08:07 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:

You do realize there is a difference between Concord and Faction Navies right?


They really don't, I believe.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Maxpie
MUSE LLP
#1567 - 2015-06-01 20:25:30 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Maxpie wrote:

Nobody seems to have a real answer to this question.


What, as to why bumping is not a mechanically hostile act? For starters, because it happens very frequently over the course of normal gameplay, with no hostile intent.

Secondly, as a result of the first point, the game engine is quite literally fully incapable of determining intent of someone who is involved in a bump.

And thirdly, because recoding the game's base physics engine is something that CCP is literally not capable of.


Quote:

I have no issue with ganking freighters, but I don't think someone should essentially have the ability to keep me from being able to log off for an unreasonable amount of time.


Then fly with a web escort. The rules for "harassment" require you to have made an effort to move away from someone bumping you, and no, pushing the "warp to" button a few more times doesn't count.


Quote:

I have choose between geting ganked while offline, or to stay up all night at the whim of someone else, because someone wants to lock and bump my ship endlessly? That's just poor gameplay. Put a time limit on it, for example, say gank within 20 minutes or let the ship go otherwise you are griefing.


Or you can play with more than half of your ass, and never encounter this situation in the first place. As I said above, use a web escort.

Oh, and "griefing" is what CCP says it is, not whatever mealy mouthed carebear definition you're trying to foist. This is, by the only definition that matters, not griefing. Get used to it.



Lol, what's your problem dude? I don't play with my ass (I guess you do?).

Yes, if I'm moving a freighter I use a web escort just because it's so slow and boring. Or to quote myself "nothing fun ever happens in a freighter". I actually advise new player not to train freighter for this reason.

I don't think that changes the issue though. Not everyone has a web escort and it shouldn't be required for them to have one if they want to be able to log off and go to bed. You think it's ok to just bump someone until downtime? Really? That's sad. I think you take a computer game much too seriously if this is what's important to you.

No good deed goes unpunished

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1568 - 2015-06-01 20:29:20 UTC
Maxpie wrote:
Not everyone has a web escort and it shouldn't be required for them to have one if they want to be able to log off and go to bed.


They're not "required", but if you choose not to use proven measures for defending yourself, you're rolling the dice.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Headhunter DK
New Eden Capsuleer Collective
Intaki-Business Logistics Union
#1569 - 2015-06-01 20:43:19 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Since the introduction of the Bowhead freighter, we’ve become aware of a tactic that has been introduced which has become known as “Hyperdunking”. This involves leaving a grid where a criminal action occurs to draw away CONCORD and reshipping to continue shooting at a target. There’s been much discussion among members of the community regarding this tactic, and whether or not it is considered legitimate gameplay.

After meeting with members of the game design and customer support teams and discussing this in depth, we have come to the consensus that due to the fact no rules are being broken and any ship that is involved in a criminal act is being destroyed by CONCORD as intended, that this tactic is simply an unintended but legitimate use of new game mechanics, and is not in breach of the rules. Tactics similar to this have been used with previous hulls before the Bowhead was introduced, and have been considered perfectly legitimate in the past.

With this in mind, at this time we do not consider this tactic to be in breach of the game rules, and as such our customer support team will not be offering reimbursements for hulls lost in this manner.

Players are also reminded that if someone is criminally flagged, they are fair game to be attacked in self-defense. Feel free to use this to your advantage.


What are you going to do about machariels bumping freighters or similar large ships in high sec? as i see it, it in an unfair and abusive use of game mechanics, because you have no method of retribution or escape whatsoever. If a mach bumps u in high sec, he can keep u bumped and unable to get away, sinec he is just bumping he is not being falgged in any way so none of ur alts, corp mates, alliance mates or anyone else for that matter, can attack or stop the bumper from commiting what is clearly a hostile action. The idea itself that a player can keep another player stuck in space for litterally forever if he so wished is just plain stupid. How can that be intended game mechanics, when there is no possible way to stop it. And no, getting 5 friends or so to come to you in their own machs or so to counter bump (if thats even possible lol) is not an option.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1570 - 2015-06-01 20:46:01 UTC
Headhunter DK wrote:

What are you going to do about machariels bumping freighters or similar large ships in high sec? as i see it, it in an unfair and abusive use of game mechanics, because you have no method of retribution or escape whatsoever.


Wrong.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#1571 - 2015-06-01 22:34:52 UTC
Headhunter DK wrote:

What are you going to do about machariels bumping freighters or similar large ships in high sec? as i see it, it in an unfair and abusive use of game mechanics, because you have no method of retribution or escape whatsoever. If a mach bumps u in high sec, he can keep u bumped and unable to get away, sinec he is just bumping he is not being falgged in any way so none of ur alts, corp mates, alliance mates or anyone else for that matter, can attack or stop the bumper from commiting what is clearly a hostile action. The idea itself that a player can keep another player stuck in space for litterally forever if he so wished is just plain stupid. How can that be intended game mechanics, when there is no possible way to stop it. And no, getting 5 friends or so to come to you in their own machs or so to counter bump (if thats even possible lol) is not an option.



They're not going to do anything about it because its legitimate game play, sometimes called meta-gaming.

Part of being successful in eve is learning how to use every aspect you can to your advantage, this is one of dozens of examples.
If you don't like being bumped, use an escort, use a scout, suicide web/scram the bumper with an alt long enough to get away, counter bump the bumper, counter bump your ship into warp, bring a logi or combat escort for the gank and make sure it fails. What so many people dont realize is its not CCP's job to protect your assets and make you safer, its your job to show that you can take care of your stuff and if you cant then you've got no right to be angry when someone takes it from you, presumably by force.

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#1572 - 2015-06-01 23:40:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Headhunter DK wrote:

What are you going to do about machariels bumping freighters or similar large ships in high sec? as i see it, it in an unfair and abusive use of game mechanics, because you have no method of retribution or escape whatsoever. If a mach bumps u in high sec, he can keep u bumped and unable to get away, sinec he is just bumping he is not being falgged in any way so none of ur alts, corp mates, alliance mates or anyone else for that matter, can attack or stop the bumper from commiting what is clearly a hostile action. The idea itself that a player can keep another player stuck in space for litterally forever if he so wished is just plain stupid.
CCP disagree and have outlined the circumstances in which they would consider it to be potential harassment or abuse; there's multiple ways to get around being bumped if you put in some effort.

Quote:
How can that be intended game mechanics, when there is no possible way to stop it.
It's not intended game mechanics, it's a creative use of game mechanics that is considered by CCP to be emergent gameplay; something that Eve is renowned for and that CCP actively encourage.

Quote:
And no, getting 5 friends or so to come to you in their own machs or so to counter bump (if thats even possible lol) is not an option.
Why not? Bumpers and gankers have to bring their friends along to do their thing, what makes you so special that you feel you should be exempt from doing the same?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#1573 - 2015-06-02 12:50:10 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
http://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-carnyx/

Quote:
Gameplay:

  • Ships in high-sec space piloted by a character with a Criminal Flag will now be unable to use in-space re-fitting facilities.

  • Has this been poasted? Smile

    Curious.
    Scipio Artelius
    Weaponised Vegemite
    Flying Dangerous
    #1574 - 2015-06-02 13:16:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
    GankYou wrote:
    http://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-carnyx/

    Quote:
    Gameplay:

  • Ships in high-sec space piloted by a character with a Criminal Flag will now be unable to use in-space re-fitting facilities.

  • Has this been poasted? Smile

    Curious.

    There is a thread on it on the front page already and has been for a few days:

    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=426987&find=unread

    Everyone already agreed....Meh, who cares.

    Doesn't affect anything and isn't really relevant to this thread.
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #1575 - 2015-06-02 13:20:28 UTC
    Scipio Artelius wrote:
    GankYou wrote:
    http://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-carnyx/

    Quote:
    Gameplay:

  • Ships in high-sec space piloted by a character with a Criminal Flag will now be unable to use in-space re-fitting facilities.

  • Has this been poasted? Smile

    Curious.

    There is a thread on it on the front page already and has been for a few days:

    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=426987&find=unread

    Everyone already agreed....Meh, who cares.

    Doesn't affect anything and isn't really relevant to this thread.


    Its to do with the new amarr shields and stations thingy.
    Valence Benedetto
    South of Heaven Ltd
    Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
    #1576 - 2015-06-02 14:55:34 UTC
    The mechanic of "bumping" is garbage imo.

    A tiny ship that rams into a capital at full speed should be destroyed, if anything. So just on the surface it makes no sense to begin with.

    Beyond that it just seems to be a crutch that CCP's designers rely upon in order to tell people "see? it is a sandbox! you're not safe anywhere rawr!" It's inelegant and clumsy design at best.

    If CCP indeed wants there to be danger in hi-sec, accomplish that by changing Crimewatch rules or making Concord/Navy response slower or less effective. In other words, accomplish "danger" via meaningful gameplay. Force the hisec warlords to win fights rather than allowing them to slink behind broken mechanics.

    Instead I get the sense that someone in that office pat himself on the back, filed a flawed system as "emergent gameplay", and never looked back.

    p.s. for the record I don't haul, don't live in hi-sec and have never been a victim of this.
    Ima Wreckyou
    The Conference Elite
    Safety.
    #1577 - 2015-06-02 15:22:32 UTC
    Valence Benedetto wrote:
    The mechanic of "bumping" is garbage imo.

    A tiny ship that rams into a capital at full speed should be destroyed, if anything. So just on the surface it makes no sense to begin with.

    Beyond that it just seems to be a crutch that CCP's designers rely upon in order to tell people "see? it is a sandbox! you're not safe anywhere rawr!" It's inelegant and clumsy design at best.

    If CCP indeed wants there to be danger in hi-sec, accomplish that by changing Crimewatch rules or making Concord/Navy response slower or less effective. In other words, accomplish "danger" via meaningful gameplay. Force the hisec warlords to win fights rather than allowing them to slink behind broken mechanics.

    Instead I get the sense that someone in that office pat himself on the back, filed a flawed system as "emergent gameplay", and never looked back.

    p.s. for the record I don't haul, don't live in hi-sec and have never been a victim of this.

    You mean by forcing the hauler alts into player corporation where they can be wardeced and by closing the dec dodge exploit? That kind of meaningful gameplay. I bet the bumper would rather shoot the freighter anyway instead of bumping him and waiting for his 20 friends in Catalysts.
    Kaldi Tsukaya
    Deveron Shipyards and Technology
    Citizen's Star Republic
    #1578 - 2015-07-13 13:57:07 UTC
    Hmmm this thread got resurrected?

    I suppose it is fitting, seeing as how the whole hyperdunking thing evolved this weekend.
    And right in Jita, the one place freighters are virtually guaranteed to go.

    https://zkillboard.com/kill/47764692/

    tanking didn't help
    https://zkillboard.com/kill/47810430/

    apparently webs didn't either
    https://zkillboard.com/kill/47789491/
    https://zkillboard.com/kill/47812958/

    Much of what has been discussed in this thread is now no longer applicable.
    -not a pipe system, it's a source/destination
    -no catalysts used
    -ineffective webbing

    Interesting...
    Colonel Mortis
    Coven Of Witches
    C0VEN
    #1579 - 2015-07-13 14:18:11 UTC
    This proves that people will always find a way to overcome hard coded mechanic.
    Currently the safest form to transport your stuff is by T2 haulers.
    Full tank, cloak , MJD and 60k of cargo space.

    No way to bump it , shield versions can be max stabbed - so the only real danger is in alpha fleet.

    As for bomber hyperdunking , why not use deployable micro jump drive?
    Alt can drop one near freighter so it can be used by it.
    Carrie-Anne Moss
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #1580 - 2015-07-13 14:20:10 UTC
    "Bad guys" keep evolving and adapting and tweeking techniques
    Bears still dying

    Same as past 12years and however long eve has left