Ships & Modules

So basically you don't want to try to defend your arguments. That's a lot of faith you put in them.

-Liang

Then we will fight in the shade...

I am happy for the changes, I have been working on training AFs. I will be happy to see them be more relevant in fleet combat if that is the case.

As i said before i really don' t like this buff as it is.
Some ships need an adjustment (retri and all the ships with 1 mid slot), but what i see is much more over it.
What i really dont understand are this free slots they are givin to each ships, that' s not the way to balance things but just to buff things like retards.

And this changes are a pretty much nerf to faction fregates too, i think we will see very few of em.

Assault ships are already capable of engaging a cruiser effectively. After the changes to stasis webifier. Myself and many who flew assault frigates were suggesting they may become overpowering. However. Cruiser, battle-cruiser and battleships fitted with a neutraliser and drones remedied the situation. However, one medium neutralising module or even 2. Was often only enough to turn off any active defence and some frigates weapon systems. For the superior assault frigates like the Jaguar, Wolf, Ishkur and any assault frigate that did not need capacitor to activate their weapon system. This was not a issue. You could keep a warp scrambler and a stasis webifer running or a afterburner. One or 2 modules for the most part.

The main issues for engaging larger vessels often came down to whether they were alone or in the case of ships with dual tracking enhancers. You could get into warp scrambler range without taking to much turret damage. Not to mention the amount of time it may take to destroy a larger vessel.

Without a neutraliser. Drones alone are often not enough. So yes! A single assault frigate is a match for a single cruiser or battle-cruiser. However, 2 assault frigates are not a match for 2 cruisers and this scales (unless you're r3tarded you should understand this concept).

Now to Liang's question that I kept forgetting to answer. These ships are not over-powered, but overpowering. The Vengeance, Ishkur, Enyo, Harpy and Hawk. Once you factor signature radius and base speed, while in warp scrambler range. 2 of these ships, maybe more, will be able to mitigate cruiser damage actively (no movement, raw damage after resistance). While still being able to apply 150 - 200 damage per second.

You can either have 15,000 effective hit-point Jaguars or 14,000 effective hit-point Ishkurs in your fleet. With Command ships or strategic cruisers with T2 gang-links. You could have 20 - 30,000 effective hit-point assault ships, with help from logistic ships. We have this now for some of these ships, but you'll be able to get more effective hit-points after these changes. Now, I'm sure you and some others understand how this will upset current dynamics in frigate engagements. However, you are more likely to see frigates with a cruisers worth of effective hit points, with frigate velocity and scan resolution. A frigates hit-points has always been one of the main arguments against their use even for purpose of tackling. Compared with a Minmatar or Gallente Recon. Frigates tend to explode before logistics can save them and just to squishy. This will change that to a lesser extent. Enough to supplant all Interceptors in all forms of engagements.

The big issue for me is frigate engagement. Frigates are so limited in fittings. That it's hard for one set-up to dominate everything else. Frigates have no Drake or Myrmidon. Introducing more slots will change that. There are many Drakes and Myrmidons represented with these changes. One of the only stand outs that is not in the same class in warp scrambler range but still could compete. Is the Retribution. The Wolf will not be able to active tank and wont be able to apply enough damage to break even the weakest active tanked assault frigate. Most of the pirate and navy faction frigates will be curve stomped! Exception being the Dramiel and Slicer. Those that skirmish @ range are not effected and those that can run in scram range can do so, but will never be able to survive in scram range for to long.

@ the moment there is a counter to almost everything in the frigate class. If that is balance then this class has always had it for the most part. I cont. to suggest that CCP focus on damage output, but leave frigate level tanks. They should be able to do the damage or close to the same damage of destroyers currently. With the exception of the Vengeance and Hawk. These ships represent potential Drakes and Mrymidons. Ships that have Good damage and insane tank. Limit there damage and increase their tank.

Also, if you have not flown a Retribution. STFU! Do so and then come back and tell me they need more damage. They melt Iskurs enyos and Minmatar assault frigates @ range. CCP should not only focus on giving ships all the benefits, but also making sure they have weaknesses. Currently, all frigates have serious weaknesses. These changes get rid of most of them. Do not create more DRAKES!


-proxyyyy

Proxyyyy says some ******** stuff, but I have to white-knight the one post simply because you make some pretty awful assumptions.


Right, so the only AFs that feature significantly higher damage output is the Enyo, and Ishkur.
When you fit said ships to put out such high numbers of damage, you have no tank. A tank so small that a fully tanked Retribution doing 200+dps will easily shred them from 15+km or closer. T2 Gallente don't exactly have the best resists against lasers and those ones definitely do not have the ability to tank AND gank enough to surpass a Retribution as easily as you imply.

Read the above comment, same applies here.

The Wolf is the desired counter to fight a Retribution. That's pretty much what it's made for. The Jag is not, and I think you overestimate the Jaguars resist profile.

Forum ate my original reply, so here is the quick and dirty version.



Slight exaggeration perhaps, but sound assumptions.



The enyo and ishkur are both capable of putting out more dps. The enyo actually has more gun dps with 125s than a dual light pulse retribution using scorch, at equivalent range. That is not counting its drone, and leaving it enough grid to fit a plate.

The retribution does not belong in scram range, I think you'll agree. Even with the new tracking bonus, it's tracking is way behind most of the other gun AFs. [when they are fit with closerange guns]

Is the EHP advantage worth the decreased dps? What about the AFs that got a slot they can use for more tank?




Both minnie AFs got another low. If they can fit another damage mod or tracking enhancer, they can/will. The harpy got one too, but I have not looked into it.



A medium extender jag, the most common fit, has over 18k ehp against scorch. It's also faster, has a smaller sig, capable of full tackle, a neut, tracks better, and can exploit resist holes.

What about the jag doesn't counter a retribution?

I am all for buffing AFs, but show me where a retribution shines. It does not have the dps advantage.

Didn't even waste time reading that. I can only assume he's attempting to correct his errors and come to grips with his retardation. Which is a serious mental illness... Sad when you're not able to help r3tards. Sometimes all you can do is smile and give hugs.

= ) Dane you're doing good <3. Keep on trying to play spaceships.


Really sad though = ( What a waste...


-proxyyyy

AF prices in Jita are way up in response to increased demand over these proposed changes, which are still an expansion pack away. In response to that, faction frigs have dropped in price. Buy those.
AF's will blot out the sun if they weren't bought by the hundreds.

I don't disagree.


That is not a well rounded setup. Has a complete focus on damage and would not survive Rifter damage for to long. Most Gallente setups are indeed glass. If not able to take down another ship with massive damage. it will explode. More well rounded damage dealing ships like a Wolf. Is alot harder to take down and DOES ALOT OF DAMAGE. The Ishkur on the other hand. Can focus on defence ALOT and still be able to do @alteast 250dps.


-proxyyyy

Translation:




Come on, I called you out twice. Man up and have a serious discussion.