Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Let's go over this again. You said 30-50km kite range. That's faction point +links material.

Empty head woopee you got no excuse, how many SP is a booster alt? I don't even ******* know isn't like 40mil SP just in boosting skills alone? Plus ship skills? 50mil SP? at 3mil SP a month we're talking 15 months solid right there plus change. Now PLEX is 895mil/unit so we're talking multiple billions just for the toon to mount the hardware for the ship to provide the links. So there's the raw ISK evaluation sorted.

I really don't see your point. At all. If you have to bring 10 billion in SP just to make 130mil of destroyer work for you there might be a problem.

30/50km initially stated the ranges with fury missiles. 30km in prop, 50km in sharpshooter. It said: You can use furies out to the edge of point range, or 265dps no matter where and how you move, as long as you got a point - dps. I don't know how you jump from that to a statement that 50km points are normal. I'm a bit flattered though.

So just got around to running the numbers on this thing in PYFA. I take back half the bad things I said about this ship.

[Jackdaw, m1]

Overdrive Injector System II
Ballistic Control System II

5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II
1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 50

Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile
[Empty High slot]

Small Bay Loading Accelerator I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Auxiliary Thrusters II

Prop Mode
200 dps @ 42.2
2508 m/s

Your fitting capabilities may surpass mine, but I feel this shows the ship has more than mediocre performance outside of brawling.

With a fitting tool, you'd probably see a more than just linear increase using pith boosters over CL-5 though, regarding additional rep vs. extra cost with regards to the whole ship. Without a fitting tool, I'd probably not had seen that you can squeeze 2 BCS on a LML-fit - and together with tac V, this makes all the difference.

I'm interested in giving this a shot just for something different, but even as a kiter I doubt I'll end up giving up the tried, tested, and true venerable confessor.

Amazingly I still haven't lost my jackdaw. Granted I don't do crazy fights and it has been blown up in gang-bangs but in terms of solo vs other t3d and below I've done pretty well.

It has more tank and the AB + double web means you can pull range while wrecking scram frigates that get in close to tackle you. However the speed in speed mode is definitely pathetic, fast Cruisers will easily run you down and wreck you which is the biggest weakness of this ship IMO. Also the dps is subpar, a Flycatcher has better base speed, and better dps due to being able to use fury more reliably cause of the application bonus it gets. It's also got 5 mids so it gets alot of utility like the Jackdaw does. Tank and agility is pretty much the only thing the Jackdaw has on the Flycatcher.

IMO if you're going to make full use of the Jackdaws potential it's going to be rocket brawl with massive tank and midslot utility.

You mean like today where it's Svipuls and Ishtars online depending if you're FW or Sov?

This is not what we are saying. The Jackdaw is now the third destroyer hull of the new tactical kind. The first was the Confessor - you might have heard stories from that one but nobody flies them anymore since CCP thought they were so uber-stronkhhh-omg-bbq-wft-pnw-mobiles that would disband pandemic legion and goonsworm before the new sov system was implemented so they had to nerf them into the stoneage.
That slav- minmatar one still reigns supreme all over low- and nullsec but since it's a slave- errm minmatar boat it's toats fine and all.

Now we get the Jack' and you cannot blame us when we do comparisons based on the other two hulls.

Now what was (as in past tense for the Confessor) the thing they had going for them?

Was it an indestructable tank with 23992377427874672 ehp? No, definately not. You cannot call 7000ehp indestructable.

Was it yolo-super-swap-speed that no interceptor could match? No, it was not.

Was it unmatch firepower of doom that was killing supers and titans all day long? Nope, can't say that it was.


The thing was that you could (as in past tense for the Confessor) fit an oversized afterbuner on them to not get stopped by a scram or a scram and a web and succum to a noobship.
Now all the faction warfare kids cried rivers of tears at the fanfest because they thought it was a totally good idea to try and gank a destroyer hull in a frigate.
The destroyer hulls that are already in the game for ages should have given it away that it was a good idea to try that - so they cried, rivers and oceans.

Anyhow, from the past experience we were in hope we would get a Caldari boat with missiles that could mitigate damage as good as the other two and were massivly disappointed that it wasn't.
As we started to fiddle with the ship on SiSi for a few days it turned out that the Jack' came with so many inbuild weaknesses that it isn't really worth buying the skillbook in the first place.

Anyhow that one thing that CCP is kindly forgetting is that low and dullsec are not the only places in New Eden. In unknown space we need that kind of mitigation and punch in one boat because we deal with stronger forces and all kind of different threats.
It may have incurred to you that the tech3 shipline was custom made for dealing with those stronger threats.

The Jackdaw will be the first sleeper ship that cannot deal with sleepers since all inbuild weaknesses will make sure that sleepers will just volley them of the grid as soon as they land.

That the destroyers were good to use in lowsec too should have been given if you look at what our general destroyer class vessel we had for the better part of a decade already.
People were so blindfolded by the cruiser madness that they all forgot that there are other shipclasses out there and were talking about imbalance for the frigate class.
How dare the next bigger shipclass was stronger at killing the smaller ones??

That is like saying the a Brutix (I still like the Brutix) should get nerfed because she can sink a stabber on her own.

We we get here is a Drake with heavy missiles - that one cannot sink anything but a few NPCs.

Have you looked at the ship's stats at all beyond a cursory analysis? Have you flown it? You're right to claim that people are upset that the ship didn't conform to the exact specifications that they wanted. That is because these exact specifications were "a good tactical destroyer with Caldari flavouring (ie. missile using, favours defense over speed but not disproportionately so given the nature of tactical destroyers, solid shield tank with damage mitigation)". This is not what we have here. Instead it is essentially the return of the "Faildari" ethos I remember being prevalent in Caldari ships back in 2009-2010 (Drake excluded obviously).

The ship is basically nothing but weakness after weakness, and it has no "blatant strength" to speak of. The 2.5 second reload time does nothing but increase sustained DPS- but that doesn't mean very much because burst DPS is already not particularly high (that being said, it does help light missiles a lot more than rockets due to their difference in cycle time IMO). There is no big selling point that makes me think, "Dang I need to buy 30 Jackdaws, these things are good at (role) because of (stat combination)!" So it doesn't even conform to your statement of it being some sort of specialist at something (which already is against the grain of what tactical destroyers are supposed to do, as adaptable generalists, which the Jackdaw still isn't.)

With it's horrendous powergrid, "fitting choice" (as opposed to actual fitting options) is invoked and I can honestly say I'm completely at a loss as to how I'm supposed to fit out a Jackdaw if I'm going to be using light missiles. Maybe my little break from the game (Over this winter, since just after the Confessor came out) has taken some of my familiarity with fitting, but honestly the Jackdaw just doesn't seem like its hull stats actually work together to make it a dependable ship.

I wouldn't even dream of throwing the Jackdaw into PvP, unless I had millions of ISK I wanted to burn for some arbitrary reason. That's all it seems to be right now. The most efficient way to lose ISK.