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The end of Hybrid buff
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#241 - 2011-12-28 21:17:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Julius Foederatus wrote:
My experience with blaster ships says otherwise. If the MWD speeds are less than 100m/s apart, you have a decent chance of catching him in an agility trap, but if he overheats at the right time you'll have an extremely difficult time trying to keep at him. All this while you continue to take damage and he's had nothing but your drones on him.


Lets take a look at this:
- Blaster ships already have more EHP and tank
- Blaster ships already have dramatically more DPS up close (both raw and because of tracking).
- Blaster ships already have superior performance out to pretty respectable ranges (15-30km)
- Blaster ships already have to catch the kiting ship exactly once - and then there is absolutely no hope of escape.
- Blaster ships already have very similar speed and agility.
- Blaster ships already have control of the timing of overheat bursts (and have tank to burn, and have massively superior DPS)
- Blaster ships already have a superior ability to adjust to range (as compared to projectiles).

So on top of all of this, you are demanding that blaster ships have effectively a 100% guaranteed chance of catching a so-called "kiting ship". Seems to me that the fact a ship thats built for kiting is able to do it might be a balanced thing. Roll

-Liang

Ed: I guess I'll address this too:
Quote:
Blasters should be able to scale in gang warfare farther than just solo engagements, where they barely have an advantage at all (and that's if we accept your argument to begin with).


Why? Why do you believe that people should be using BLASTERS in fleet/large gang engagements? Why can't you use rails if your concern is range? Why does every weapon have to perform equally in every situation?

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#242 - 2011-12-28 21:27:52 UTC  |  Edited by: m0cking bird
Gallente ships with their respective bonuses. Are either as good as Minmatar ships or better. Gallente ships have had perfect slot layout for a long time. The issue is almost exclusive to blaster weapon system. The main difference between Gallente and Minmatar slot layout. Is one focuses on damage and the other on optionality or versatility

Something Minmatar ships have gotten alot of heat for in the past. Not being focused. However, I have been known to drop weapon turrets on Gallente ships to fit a neutraliser (Brutix, Thorax). Often does not hurt damage to much in my opinion and increases survivability. I've done the same thing for my solo Zealot set-up. Gallente ships were the third fastest in terms of base speed in the past. Amarr was second fastest, but now Gallente ships are the second fastest.

Also, maybe all blaster ships should have their material cost cut in half. You lose them more. Why not cut the cost?

So yeah! If anything. Amarr and Caldari ships are terrible for the most part and often have terrible slot layouts with few exceptions.


-proxyyyy
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#243 - 2011-12-28 22:02:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
m0cking bird wrote:
Gallente ships with their respective bonuses. Are either as good as Minmatar ships or better. Gallente ships have had perfect slot layout for a long time. The issue is almost exclusive to blaster weapon system.


I disagree. It's in large part due to rigs and Tracking Enhancers. Gallente was once fine and Minmatar the underdog. Continuous buffs to Projectile Weapons and other changes slowly reduced the usefulness of blaster ships however.

There aren't any good rigs for Gallente ships: armor rigs reduce speed, astronautic rigs reduce armor. Weapon rigs could not easily be fit until the recent hybrid buff. Falloff rigs and TEs also work better for Minmatar because Gallente isn't about kiting but about catching the opponent.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#244 - 2011-12-28 22:06:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
m0cking bird wrote:
Gallente ships with their respective bonuses. Are either as good as Minmatar ships or better. Gallente ships have had perfect slot layout for a long time. The issue is almost exclusive to blaster weapon system.


I disagree. It's in large part due to rigs and Tracking Enhancers. Gallente was once fine and Minmatar the underdog. Continuous buffs to Projectile Weapons and other changes slowly reduced the usefulness of blaster ships however.

There aren't any good rigs for Gallente ships: armor rigs reduce speed, astronautic rigs reduce armor. Weapon rigs could not easily be fit until the recent hybrid buff. Falloff rigs and TEs also work better for Minmatar because Gallente isn't about kiting but about catching the opponent.


CCP is looking at the difference between armor and shield tanking and active and buffer tanking. I'd expect this to change relatively Soon(tm) - and frankly I am highly impressed with Tallest.

Also, whats wrong with shield rigs? :P

-Liang

Ed: I guess I should say that there's only been one projectile boost. It hasn't been a "steady stream of boosts" - at least as far as I remember. Refresh my memory?

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#245 - 2011-12-28 22:06:49 UTC
i am sorry liang but your last post trying to say blasters is all that is pretty terrible ... sorry but its wrong on every level that you claimed and i was about to make a huge post contradicting every point u made with eft comparisons to prove it to you but honestly i dont need to as the devs have already confirmed that more will be done coming springtime which are going to buff gallente ships more. at this point it really looks like your trying desperetly to prevent anymore gallente buffs which are sorely needed and giving terrible comparisons that hold no real validity under scrutiny.

but seriously tho (blasters are effective to 15-30km?) are you playing the same game eve online that the rest of us are? a megathron with 3 tracking enchancers and neutrons can barely do that with null for terrible dps(which they cant use 3 TE on any real fit anyway). much less medium blasters which have less then half that range.
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#246 - 2011-12-28 22:07:05 UTC
We'll take these one at time, but before that, let me point out that everything you mentioned there does not apply at once. Blaster ships cannot by virtue of their fitting layout have more ehp and tank, dramatically more dps, better performance out to 15-30km (which I frankly don't buy), very similar speed and agility, plus all the other advantages in one package. You cannot fit them so that they can take advantage of all these things at once.

Moving on, when fit for shield, they only have marginally more tank and ehp, and that's because of extra structure points. Furthermore, it is not going to matter at all because they cannot even apply their dps until they catch their target, at which point we'll be generous and say they've only taken 25% damage to their total EHP. Their extra dps is not going to make up for this deficit. Furthermore, Minmatar ships can tank just as hard if not harder when plated, and still retain all their nastiness (minus shield fit speed of course). You cannot plate a Brutix (or Talos for that matter) and still maintain all those extra advantages you mentioned below.

They do have dramatically more dps up close, that much is easy to see.

Frankly I don't buy this line about them having superior performance. At best they have similar performance, perhaps even less. If you can back this up with some formulas maybe I'll change my mind, but having dramatically less falloff (even in Null) usually means you cannot project your dps as far or as reliably.

As I mentioned in previous posts, you only have to catch the kiting ship 'once' but you have a defined window when it will actually allow you to come out on top. Anything after that and you've taken too much damage to be able to catch up.

I don't know what your definition of "very similar" is, but there is a deficit of about 100m/s between a minmatar BC and a gallente BC, assuming there are no speed mods. Adding speed mods into the mix makes the deficit larger, and of course by adding speed mods you're eating away at a blaster boats dps, where it is supposed to have its main advantage. This is all with shield tanking of course, armor just makes the deficit even worse for Gall ships.

This is true that you have control of the timing of the overheat, and often this can help you greatly, but if your cane pilot is smart, you're not going to be able to cover enough distance before he hits his overheat too and manages to out distance you again. He's going to have to have made a mistake in following you too closely. Not to mention that this is assuming the same tank type. If your blaster ship is armor tanked, god help you. Moreover, the amount of time you have to spend trying to catch him while he's already firing at you means that your 'tank to burn' has already been burned up, and you have to hope you've got enough EHP left to make up the difference.

I assume by this you mean the 5 sec reload time as opposed to the 10 sec reload time for projectiles. I'll give you this, but a 5 second differential is not a huge advantage that the outcome of the fight is going to lean on, most of the time.

Another point is that ships are not 'built' for kiting, they are fit for kiting. There is nothing in that cane fit you used earlier to suggest that it is built for kiting, other than that you shield tanked it. But you can shield tank a Brutix too and still be a good deal slower. One of the underlying points is that kiting is way too ******* easy, you didn't even have to add a speed mod to be faster than the Brutix. In most MMORPGs, there is some sort of hang up to kiting, be it low HP, having to stop every time you fire (allowing a melee class to catch up), plus a whole bunch of snares and other abilities. We have none of that inherent to native blaster ships, and none of the disadvantages inherent in native projectile ships. On top of that the projectile ships have the greater damage projection, which is what makes up for the Amarr's lack of speed.

Also no one is talking about scaling to a large/fleet fight. My example was a ******* 3v3. If blaster ships can't even scale to a 3v3, that is a serious goddamn problem in the balance equation. I'm not saying you should be able to beat 50 drakes with 50 brutixes, but you should have a fighting chance in a 3v3 or 5v5, and at present you don't have any such chance. Also, if you went with rails, you'd get torn apart because your dps would be paltry compared to the ACs, who would be able to still control range on your and tear you to shreds by choosing to go in close.

Finally, I feel like we've entered bizarro world with proxxxy trying to claim that Amarr and Caldari ships suck. They have better dps projection and better tank than either Gall or Minnie ships, and mid slots to spare for ewar. And I got news for you bud, if you sacrifice slots on a Gall ship for neuts, your dps advantage goes poof. The reason why people ***** about Minmatar ships is that they do not have to make any compromises in their fitting, for the most part. Want to fit 2x med neuts on top of a full rack of guns? No problem! Hell you can add 2x launchers for a little extra dps instead if you want.

I don't see why you all think this is balanced, because a skilled blaster pilot can sometimes win a fight against a skilled projectile pilot in a solo situation. The amount of times solo fights happen should be telling enough that this isn't going to fly, but if they can't even scale beyond that then the balance equation is way out of kilter. You aren't supposed to balance games according to what the best players can do, otherwise the vast majority are **** out of luck. You're supposed to balance the game according to the average player's abilities. You can't make it too easy but you shouldn't make it ridiculously hard either.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#247 - 2011-12-28 22:11:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Fade Azura wrote:
i am sorry liang but your last post trying to say blasters is all that is pretty terrible ... sorry but its wrong on every level that you claimed and i was about to make a huge post contradicting every point u made with eft comparisons to prove it to you but honestly i dont need to as the devs have already confirmed that more will be done coming springtime which are going to buff gallente ships more. at this point it really looks like your trying desperetly to prevent anymore gallente buffs which are sorely needed and giving terrible comparisons that hold no real validity under scrutiny.

but seriously tho (blasters are effective to 15-30km?) are you playing the same game eve online that the rest of us are? a megathron with 3 tracking enchancers and neutrons can barely do that with null for terrible dps(which they cant use 3 TE on any real fit anyway). much less medium blasters which have less then half that range.


You may want to do those comparisons afterall, because the reality of the situation is that blaster ships DO in fact have pretty good damage profiles. I mean, you aren't trying to armor tank them are you? O.o

-Liang

Ed: Also, 2 MFS Thorax > 3 Gyro Rupture out to 22km. ;-)

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#248 - 2011-12-28 22:37:25 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
m0cking bird wrote:
Gallente ships with their respective bonuses. Are either as good as Minmatar ships or better. Gallente ships have had perfect slot layout for a long time. The issue is almost exclusive to blaster weapon system.


I disagree. It's in large part due to rigs and Tracking Enhancers. Gallente was once fine and Minmatar the underdog. Continuous buffs to Projectile Weapons and other changes slowly reduced the usefulness of blaster ships however.

There aren't any good rigs for Gallente ships: armor rigs reduce speed, astronautic rigs reduce armor. Weapon rigs could not easily be fit until the recent hybrid buff. Falloff rigs and TEs also work better for Minmatar because Gallente isn't about kiting but about catching the opponent.



I'm not sure we're having the same conversation. I'm focusing on slot layouts and bonuses of Gallente ships compared to all other racial ships. It's clear that Gallente and Minmatar are winners here. The bonuses on Gallente ships are excellent with some exceptions (Thorax, (5% increase to MicroWarpdrive capacitor bonus per level) for example).

Which would leave hybrid blaster @ the underlining issue for most. This would not be such a serious issue if Minmatar were not so significantly helped by tracking enhancers. Since I've already made the argument to this regard forever. With most of the community t=still focused on everything else that did not matter. I'm not sure why you'd direct my own arguments to me.

Also, I've made serious suggestion to changing close range engagements\s. Things like a increase in warp scrambler and stasis webifier range. How armour plates should only effect alignment, acceleration and turn rate. Not overall velocity. Changes to sentry drones to enable them to warp. Much like fighters, but with minuscule base velocity.

Anyway, if CCP did change auto-cannon falloff in a significant way. Shield-Hurricanes would be replaced by shield-Harbinger. Which was the way it as before. Most likely making the Hurricane inferior to Harbinger as a shield-nano ship and no where near the Drake or Myrmidon close range. Making it the worst tier 2 battle-cruiser again.


-proxyyyy
Goose99
#249 - 2011-12-28 22:53:43 UTC
When you're focused on something... and that thing is broken, then you're broken.Lol
Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#250 - 2011-12-28 23:17:48 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Fade Azura wrote:
i am sorry liang but your last post trying to say blasters is all that is pretty terrible ... sorry but its wrong on every level that you claimed and i was about to make a huge post contradicting every point u made with eft comparisons to prove it to you but honestly i dont need to as the devs have already confirmed that more will be done coming springtime which are going to buff gallente ships more. at this point it really looks like your trying desperetly to prevent anymore gallente buffs which are sorely needed and giving terrible comparisons that hold no real validity under scrutiny.

but seriously tho (blasters are effective to 15-30km?) are you playing the same game eve online that the rest of us are? a megathron with 3 tracking enchancers and neutrons can barely do that with null for terrible dps(which they cant use 3 TE on any real fit anyway). much less medium blasters which have less then half that range.


You may want to do those comparisons afterall, because the reality of the situation is that blaster ships DO in fact have pretty good damage profiles. I mean, you aren't trying to armor tank them are you? O.o

-Liang

Ed: Also, 2 MFS Thorax > 3 Gyro Rupture out to 22km. ;-)


ohh you know i didnt know i was supposed to shield tank my proteus? damn why didnt someone tell me that? and why did ccp give me all these armor subsystems? i am so confused .... Roll
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#251 - 2011-12-28 23:24:35 UTC
another failiang rant how awesome those blaster ships are
Lets take a look at them:
- Blaster ships already have more EHP and tank
... oh yeah 5% more ehp whohohoo awesome especially as it will be 5% less after matar loads fusion/hail i wish blaster ships could do explo dmg
so this point is false

- Blaster ships already have dramatically more DPS up close (both raw and because of tracking).
yeah dramatically... 15% it is HUGE pls make a list at how much % dramatically superior etc starts end thx

- Blaster ships already have superior performance out to pretty respectable ranges (15-30km)
what? performance? what is that in eve?? arent you the one who is bragging about only ehp dps matters and while ehp isnt better than matar and matar takes over in dps after 15km i cant see that "superior" performance especially as i would say gall would be at disadvantage at those ranges
so it seems another point is false

- Blaster ships already have to catch the kiting ship exactly once - and then there is absolutely no hope of escape.
yep no hope of escape for the blaster ship only if it kills its target, it is still slower than the kiter there is no chance to disengage
so i cant see how is this an advantage for blaster ship , as both parties needs to kill/jamm the other to be able to run away sub web/scramble range
and another false... you make more false points than true ones

- Blaster ships already have very similar speed and agility.
not even close matar ships are way faster 10+%
half true...you can do it better...

- Blaster ships already have control of the timing of overheat bursts (and have tank to burn, and have massively superior DPS)
yeah totally doesnt matter when you can overheat yours for like 2 mins nonstop even if after that the blaster ships get in range the matar ship did enough dmg to be able to finish off the gall one
especially as 2 mins should be enough to kill one :P
have a good day i count this as true^^

- Blaster ships already have a superior ability to adjust to range (as compared to projectiles).
ability to adjust to range??? what the hell is that again? the 5s vs 10s ammo change? i rly dont get it... especially as
another "superior" thingy ,but this one is tricky

3 false vs 2 true 1 soso and 1 cant comprehend :) mark D

Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#252 - 2011-12-28 23:29:47 UTC
m0cking bird wrote:

Also, maybe all blaster ships should have their material cost cut in half. You lose them more. Why not cut the cost?

cause that is another racial matar flavour or advantage cheaper hulls :P for t1 definetly for t2 well it doesnt help that 70% of pvp ships are winmatar so high demand means high...
m0cking bird wrote:

So yeah! If anything. Amarr and Caldari ships are terrible for the most part and often have terrible slot layouts with few exceptions.

yeah for close range yes , caldari ones are nearly useless par some ships and some is like 2 :P
but it can be understandable as long as they are better for longer ranges ,but wait arty dominates longer range combats CCP fail
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#253 - 2011-12-28 23:34:55 UTC
Fade Azura wrote:

ohh you know i didnt know i was supposed to shield tank my proteus? damn why didnt someone tell me that? and why did ccp give me all these armor subsystems? i am so confused .... Roll


Its funny that you'd complain about the Proteus given that its actually a fantastically working blaster ship. Expensive, yes... but works great. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#254 - 2011-12-28 23:40:00 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
m0cking bird wrote:

Also, maybe all blaster ships should have their material cost cut in half. You lose them more. Why not cut the cost?

cause that is another racial matar flavour or advantage cheaper hulls :P for t1 definetly for t2 well it doesnt help that 70% of pvp ships are winmatar so high demand means high...
m0cking bird wrote:

So yeah! If anything. Amarr and Caldari ships are terrible for the most part and often have terrible slot layouts with few exceptions.

yeah for close range yes , caldari ones are nearly useless par some ships and some is like 2 :P
but it can be understandable as long as they are better for longer ranges ,but wait arty dominates longer range combats CCP fail


Why have I fallen in love with you?
Goose99
#255 - 2011-12-28 23:51:55 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Fade Azura wrote:

ohh you know i didnt know i was supposed to shield tank my proteus? damn why didnt someone tell me that? and why did ccp give me all these armor subsystems? i am so confused .... Roll


Its funny that you'd complain about the Proteus given that its actually a fantastically working blaster ship. Expensive, yes... but works great. :)

-Liang


You're right. Let us take why it makes blasters work... and apply it to all Gallante. In other words, give everyone covops. There, you can get in range now.Lol
Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#256 - 2011-12-28 23:56:23 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Fade Azura wrote:

ohh you know i didnt know i was supposed to shield tank my proteus? damn why didnt someone tell me that? and why did ccp give me all these armor subsystems? i am so confused .... Roll


Its funny that you'd complain about the Proteus given that its actually a fantastically working blaster ship. Expensive, yes... but works great. :)

-Liang


you know i didnt think it was that good since if i use the standard armor buffer pvp fit and fought it with my alt with only 10 million skillpoints they can use a cheap ass nano drake and hit orbit at 20km and point and missiles and it loses terribly cause i cant even hit him with null and have no chance of catching it.

ohh wait lemme guess i should have used a shield fit with rails and an active tank? lol please stop liang you are going to lose alot of respect on these forums with these terrible arguments that people are easily disproving especially when your so easily contradicted.

just stop lol
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#257 - 2011-12-29 00:07:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Fade Azura wrote:

you know i didnt think it was that good since if i use the standard armor buffer pvp fit and fought it with my alt with only 10 million skillpoints they can use a cheap ass nano drake and hit orbit at 20km and point and missiles and it loses terribly cause i cant even hit him with null and have no chance of catching it.

ohh wait lemme guess i should have used a shield fit with rails and an active tank? lol please stop liang you are going to lose alot of respect on these forums with these terrible arguments that people are easily disproving especially when your so easily contradicted.

just stop lol


bring your cheap ass nano drake to Amamake and I'll 1v1 you in my Proteus. :)

-Liang

Ed: Looking forward to your "orbit at 20". lolz

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#258 - 2011-12-29 00:15:02 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Fade Azura wrote:

you know i didnt think it was that good since if i use the standard armor buffer pvp fit and fought it with my alt with only 10 million skillpoints they can use a cheap ass nano drake and hit orbit at 20km and point and missiles and it loses terribly cause i cant even hit him with null and have no chance of catching it.

ohh wait lemme guess i should have used a shield fit with rails and an active tank? lol please stop liang you are going to lose alot of respect on these forums with these terrible arguments that people are easily disproving especially when your so easily contradicted.

just stop lol


bring your cheap ass nano drake to Amamake and I'll 1v1 you in my Proteus. :)

-Liang

Ed: Looking forward to your "orbit at 20". lolz


how bout you come to amarr and ill leave my corp so you dont have to worry about getting ganked ... im here right now ill drop a can for you and your proteus ... feel free to message me ill even fraps it and post it on here when its over
vorneus
Hub2
#259 - 2011-12-29 00:16:05 UTC  |  Edited by: vorneus
Liang Nuren wrote:
Lets take a look at this:
- Blaster ships already have more EHP and tank
- Blaster ships already have dramatically more DPS up close (both raw and because of tracking).
- Blaster ships already have superior performance out to pretty respectable ranges (15-30km)
- Blaster ships already have to catch the kiting ship exactly once - and then there is absolutely no hope of escape.
- Blaster ships already have very similar speed and agility.
- Blaster ships already have control of the timing of overheat bursts (and have tank to burn, and have massively superior DPS)
- Blaster ships already have a superior ability to adjust to range (as compared to projectiles).

*snip*

-Liang


I have to say that normally I read and agree with what you write Liang, or can at least understand your point of view if I don't agree entirely. You clearly put thought into your posts, are a smart chap and obviously very opinionated.

I have to disagree with the emboldened parts of your quote though. Mainly because they all seem to be sweeping generalisations that by no means hold true in all cases. There's also a lot of dramatisation in there like "there is absolutely no hope of escape", "massively superior DPS" and "tank to burn" which I find not only inaccurate but almost amusing as to how you've used such an exaggerated tone.

Just for the record, I haven't been actively contributing to this thread because I'm happy with the Hybrid buff (there are also more than enough people posting in here :P) and feel like the changes have made a huge difference to the performance of many ships. The only reason I replied to this particular post is because of its flamboyant and OTT glorification of blaster ships.

One last thing..

Liang Nuren wrote:
Ed: Also, 2 MFS Thorax > 3 Gyro Rupture out to 22km. ;-)


Where on Earth did you get this from? I read it a few times, and couldn't believe for a second it might be true, so I plugged it into EFT for a DPS graph (yes the latest version) and came out with a very different result.

Exactly the fits you specify, 2xMFS on the Thorax and 3xGyros on the Rupture, Neutrons (Null) and 425mm's (Barrage) respectively. According to a stationary target the Rupture pulls ahead at ~10km, and at your stated range of 22km the Rupture is doing 117dps to the Thorax's 18.

So yeah, I have no idea where that came from,. Hell even if you take all the Gyros off the Rupture it still wins the DPS battle by almost 4 times at that range (71 to 18).

Maybe it was a joke? As I said, I haven't read the rest of the thread so apologies if it was taken out of context :)

-Ed

This one time, I like, totally did some stuff.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#260 - 2011-12-29 00:16:14 UTC
Fade Azura wrote:

how bout you come to amarr and ill leave my corp so you dont have to worry about getting ganked ... im here right now ill drop a can for you and your proteus ... feel free to message me ill even fraps it and post it on here when its over


I'm -10.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.