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why do players stay in npc corps?

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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1221 - 2015-05-30 18:29:19 UTC
kes88 wrote:
I also don't think it's a massive assumption that that initial contact in-game - the person who advises you about why you can't mix tanks, sharing the link to the cloak-mwd trick or points you in the right direction when you say "Hey, I wanna PvP/do Industry/trade"


That happens all the time in the State War Academy.
I've seen killmails with tons of different NPC corporation players and mixed PC, NPC corp groups.
There is no reason to discount the social interaction that takes place in NPC corporations. The only selling point of player corporations are certain game mechanics like a variable tax rate, corp bookmarks, the ability to deploy POSes, corp contacts, etc. And, on balance, NPC corporations have some beneficial game mechanics, too, but there is no mechanical reason that a player would be more social in one versus the other. None.

If you don't like to socialize, you don't like to socialize. Shoving people into a player corporation won't make them more social. It will make them isolated. Meanwhile, it will have eviscerated the CAS Combat Guild (I think that was the name.) and anything like it in any other NPC corporation.

What we KNOW is that certain players want to be able to attack anyone, anywhere, at any time, whether that is good for the game or not. They think eliminating NPC corporations furthers that goal. They are leading the discussion towards that goal. I hope you know why are you following.
kes88
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1222 - 2015-05-30 18:55:39 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
kes88 wrote:
I also don't think it's a massive assumption that that initial contact in-game - the person who advises you about why you can't mix tanks, sharing the link to the cloak-mwd trick or points you in the right direction when you say "Hey, I wanna PvP/do Industry/trade"


That happens all the time in the State War Academy.
I've seen killmails with tons of different NPC corporation players and mixed PC, NPC corp groups.
There is no reason to discount the social interaction that takes place in NPC corporations. The only selling point of player corporations are certain game mechanics like a variable tax rate, corp bookmarks, the ability to deploy POSes, corp contacts, etc. And, on balance, NPC corporations have some beneficial game mechanics, too, but there is no mechanical reason that a player would be more social in one versus the other. None.

If you don't like to socialize, you don't like to socialize. Shoving people into a player corporation won't make them more social. It will make them isolated. Meanwhile, it will have eviscerated the CAS Combat Guild (I think that was the name.) and anything like it in any other NPC corporation.

What we KNOW is that certain players want to be able to attack anyone, anywhere, at any time, whether that is good for the game or not. They think eliminating NPC corporations furthers that goal. They are leading the discussion towards that goal. I hope you know why are you following.


But that's just it - I'm not discounting the role NPC corps play - I'm saying that for most new players it is insufficient to keep them here. That's why I am asking why we can't have one NPC corp membership and one player corp membership. Nobody has addressed that as being a possibility. All I seem to be getting it why am I hating on NPC corps (I'm really not) and given that I am hating on NPC corps (I'm not) why would I want to keep them. Seriously, why not have both? The greater the availability of avenues for communication, the greater the likelihood that newbies will engage, surely?

The problem with being put in an NPC on starting eve is that you are one of hundreds in that corp - I absolutely loved being in CAS but I was lucky. Some people don't know where to begin and don't even speak in their corp chat. Give them lots of opportunties to ask questions - and as I said - having someone say "Hey, how you doing?" makes a difference in the overwhelming NPE. It's not the people who "don't like to socialize" who are the problem, it's the people who want to be a part of Eve but feel utterly overwhelmed and don't have the support that they need. ie want to socialize but don't even know where to begin. Am I making any sense?
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1223 - 2015-05-30 19:02:33 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Only for one side.


Getting blown up is content every bit as much as blowing up someone else.


You're missing the point.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1224 - 2015-05-30 19:34:47 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Only for one side.


Getting blown up is content every bit as much as blowing up someone else.


You're missing the point.


No, I'm really not. My dumb ass lost an Ashimmu to a corp we decced the other day just a few hours ago, and it was still content, I still had fun, and I still acknowledged their "gf" in local. That's called playing the game, and being a good sport.

In other news, as mentioned before, trying to play EVE with a baby on your lap is tricky.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
kes88
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1225 - 2015-05-30 19:42:17 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Only for one side.


Getting blown up is content every bit as much as blowing up someone else.


You're missing the point.


No, I'm really not. My dumb ass lost an Ashimmu to a corp we decced the other day just a few hours ago, and it was still content, I still had fun, and I still acknowledged their "gf" in local. That's called playing the game, and being a good sport.

In other news, as mentioned before, trying to play EVE with a baby on your lap is tricky.


Hopefully getting the wee one stuck in at an early age, lol.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1226 - 2015-05-30 19:53:36 UTC
kes88 wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Only for one side.


Getting blown up is content every bit as much as blowing up someone else.


You're missing the point.


No, I'm really not. My dumb ass lost an Ashimmu to a corp we decced the other day just a few hours ago, and it was still content, I still had fun, and I still acknowledged their "gf" in local. That's called playing the game, and being a good sport.

In other news, as mentioned before, trying to play EVE with a baby on your lap is tricky.


Hopefully getting the wee one stuck in at an early age, lol.


Ostensibly, yes, but it's mostly that the flashing images keeps him amused, and therefore not crying. My wife isn't in good health, so I take the baby a lot on my days off.

My older daughter? Oh, she loves it when I play games, she yells at me to kill them harder.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1227 - 2015-05-30 20:03:33 UTC
kes88 wrote:
why [can't we] have one NPC corp membership and one player corp membership . . . The greater the availability of avenues for communication, the greater the likelihood that newbies will engage, surely? . . . Give them lots of opportunties to ask questions


Agreed.
People have more than one identity that they wish to express. An "American" can also be a "doctor" and a "mother" or "father". Similarly, a "Caldari" can also be a "pirate" and a "recruiter" or "chief executive officer".

One single channel to express that all could be stifling. On the other end, though, too many channels might disperse the impetus for socialization. One avenue or opportunity might not be enough to express a player's full potential. Too many opportunities might paralyze a player with confusion, information fatigue, and indecision.

Have you visited this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=401219&find=unread? I have only skimmed it, but it seems to address some of what we're talking about here.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1228 - 2015-05-30 20:21:13 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Only for one side.


Getting blown up is content every bit as much as blowing up someone else.


You're missing the point.


No, I'm really not. My dumb ass lost an Ashimmu to a corp we decced the other day just a few hours ago, and it was still content, I still had fun, and I still acknowledged their "gf" in local. That's called playing the game, and being a good sport.

In other news, as mentioned before, trying to play EVE with a baby on your lap is tricky.



Why did you dec a corp that could shoot back? Sounds like a target selection error to me. And where were your neutral logi?

If you need to lessons in highsec mercing I'd be glad to help. Lend me the services of your neutral scouts and I'll show you how it's done.
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1229 - 2015-05-30 20:25:48 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
In other news, as mentioned before, trying to play EVE with a baby on your lap is tricky . . . the flashing images keeps him amused


Could be why some people just mine in high sec in an NPC corporation.
Have you tried Christmas lights? I find the all-blue sets to be particularly soothing but the sets with red lights might be more engaging.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1230 - 2015-05-30 21:25:25 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
And where were your neutral logi?


I don't use any, I never have.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1231 - 2015-05-30 22:43:19 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
kes88 wrote:
I'm not being funny, but I think they do and I think CCP have acknowledged that already.
OK, link me to where that was stated.

You can take a common sense approach to interpreting the information CCP have released and on a number of occasions now they have said that higher retention is associated with joining a corp.

I just grabbed the quote from Rise from a few pages back that he made in relation to CCP's inability to validate that griefing is a major cause of new players leaving:

CCP Rise wrote:
The strongest indicators for a new player staying with EVE are associated with social activity: joining corps, using market and contract systems, pvping, etc. Isolating players away from the actual sandbox seems very contrary to what we would like to accomplish.

That was just the easiest example to grab, but it's been said multiple times now in relation to joining a corp being an indicator of higher retention.
That quote shows corps in a list of ways to be social, just like I said. That's not stating that those who join corps are retained more than those that don't, since people in NPC corps also use the market and contract systems and PvP. By "take a common sense approach" what you really mean is "make it up because that's what you want to be true". I'm sure if NPC corps were such a big hole in player retention CCP would have dealt with it long ago, so common sense tells us that NPC corps aren't all that bad.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1232 - 2015-05-30 22:49:30 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
The only benefit to an NPC corp is that you don't get wardecced by the countless griefer corps who specialise in doing nothing but shooting easy targets.
All I wanted in this thread is an honest admission that this is the case. That's all I wanted to hear, thanks!
Always glad to help out P

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#1233 - 2015-05-30 22:57:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Sibyyl wrote:

Lucas Kell wrote:
The only benefit to an NPC corp is that you don't get wardecced by the countless griefer corps who specialise in doing nothing but shooting easy targets.


All I wanted in this thread is an honest admission that this is the case. That's all I wanted to hear, thanks!



It's not completely true, though. The other benefit is an instant, free, automatic social group. The problem, as kes88 has pointed out repeatedly, is that the social groups are large enough and the new players often overwhelmed enough that they end up being isolating instead of welcoming.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1234 - 2015-05-31 00:23:42 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
And where were your neutral logi?


I don't use any, I never have.


Damn you guys are getting wrecked by that corp. Siegfried lost a brutix and 2 logi a few hours after the Ashimmu. Do you need some help?

That kind of showing won't get you a write-up on minerbumping I'm afraid.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1235 - 2015-05-31 00:41:09 UTC
It shouldn't even surprise me that someone like you can't figure out that fun isn't measured in isk.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1236 - 2015-05-31 00:46:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Demerius Xenocratus
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
It shouldn't even surprise me that someone like you can't figure out that fun isn't measured in isk.



Brawling a properly fit rattlesnake is not my idea of fun. What were you thinking?

Oh. You tried to eat a bait Maller.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1237 - 2015-05-31 00:52:19 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
It shouldn't even surprise me that someone like you can't figure out that fun isn't measured in isk.



Brawling a properly fit rattlesnake is not my idea of fun. What were you thinking?


Thought I could chance a moment to grab my kid, since he was crying. *shrugs*

If it flies, it dies. I'm no exception.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#1238 - 2015-05-31 02:56:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Lucas Kell wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
I just grabbed the quote from Rise from a few pages back that he made in relation to CCP's inability to validate that griefing is a major cause of new players leaving:

CCP Rise wrote:
The strongest indicators for a new player staying with EVE are associated with social activity: joining corps, using market and contract systems, pvping, etc. Isolating players away from the actual sandbox seems very contrary to what we would like to accomplish.
That quote shows corps in a list of ways to be social, just like I said. That's not stating that those who join corps are retained more than those that don't, since people in NPC corps also use the market and contract systems and PvP. By "take a common sense approach" what you really mean is "make it up because that's what you want to be true". I'm sure if NPC corps were such a big hole in player retention CCP would have dealt with it long ago, so common sense tells us that NPC corps aren't all that bad.

No, I don't mean make it up at all. CCP have said that joining a Corp is a strong indicator of higher retention on multiple occasions.

It's one of many indicators and I don't believe they were implying that there is only one pathway to retention. People who subscribe and remain in NPC Corps as main characters are a perfect example counter to that type of suggestion. On the whole, joining a Corp is a strong indicator of a higher chance of retention.

You are free to interpret that how you like, but I think most people would equate that to mean that new players that join player Corps have a higher chance of fitting into the 10% of long term retained players. That doesn't mean 0% chance for those that don't.

All of us might want CCP to release the exact wording needed to provide the 100% proof that changes our mind. Others are happy to make conclusions from the wording that CCP do use, rather than discount what they say because it isn't verbatim with what I would consider to be the only 100% version of the wording.

In the end, it's just communication and that's not an exact science.

Luckily, it doesn't matter what I think, or what you think, or what anyone else in this thread thinks. The only thing that is important is what CCP think and their view on this issue seems to disagree with yours.

CCP Punkturis also made this statement in the friendly fire devblog. It's just another of the statements that support the same view from CCP:

CCP Punkturis wrote:
However with aggression rules, there is no such spectrum of decisions. The only ‘choice’ is the binary option of either joining a corp where other players can shoot you, or simply not joining a corp with others at all. For many players, their optimal choice is therefore to avoid signing up to a corp altogether, and so they inevitably miss out on many of the meaningful social interactions that make EVE unique.


In this case, different wording, but same overall message - many players that don't join a corp inevitably miss out on a lot of the meaningful social interactions that make EVE unique.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1239 - 2015-05-31 06:28:13 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
However with aggression rules, there is no such spectrum of decisions. The only ‘choice’ is the binary option of either joining a corp where other players can shoot you, or simply not joining a corp with others at all. For many players, their optimal choice is therefore to avoid signing up to a corp altogether, and so they inevitably miss out on many of the meaningful social interactions that make EVE unique.


In this case, different wording, but same overall message - many players that don't join a corp inevitably miss out on a lot of the meaningful social interactions that make EVE unique.


So this is a conversation we (CAS people) are literally had just a short while ago with a person who has been in Scope for less than one day.

Started with her asking us in our combat SIG chat how to find corp chat again.
After a bit of questioning, turns out she's trying to find CAS corp chat specifically.
She applied to a player corp, realized it was a mistake for her, and cancelled the application too late - she was already accepted. Two hours later, she dropped corp and was in Scope.
This is a player less than two months into the game.
She was very active in CAS corp chat, and misses the folks there.
We pointed her towards some other SIG channels, advised her to file a support ticket requesting to be put back into CAS, cross fingers and hope for the best. (And some contingency plans if the petition was denied.)
She expressed appreciation for how we help each other out, and logged off.

I'm not trying to present this as anything but a single anecdotal incident - just thought it was an interesting anecdote related to the subject at hand.

I hadn't read CCP Punkturis's devblog on friendly fire before. I'm now disappointed that she associates not joining a player corp with missing out on many meaningful social interactions for many players. "Inevitably" no less! So inaccurate... Cry
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#1240 - 2015-05-31 07:01:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Eli Stan wrote:
I hadn't read CCP Punkturis's devblog on friendly fire before. I'm now disappointed that she associates not joining a player corp with missing out on many meaningful social interactions for many players. "Inevitably" no less! So inaccurate... Cry

These aren't legal documents, they are just casual conversations in devblogs, the forum and presentations. I'm sure she could have written something different without that word and still had the same overall meaning to her message.

So I don't think the exact wording is all that critical except in posts like official rulings and policy.

Player corps aren't the ideal choice for everyone. They are one of the factors that lead to higher retention of new players on the whole.