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Removing killmails would help fix pvp
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NoScream
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2011-12-28 16:15:32 UTC


I think enough have posted about the OP’s post, not only is he wrong in my opinion but playing a game where the special features like KM’s makes the gameplay more than your average FPS shooty game is just one extra reason why EVE is EVE.


I recently played Battlefield 3 on PC, it was fun for a week or two, then it got nerffed by popular kiddy demand via the EA forums, so much was changed that the fun element was lost from the game, now every gun is like evey other, every sight is virtually the same as all the others with different graphics…. BF3 will die fast.


Eve is different, every ship can be configured in 100’s of 1000’s of ways, making every ships defensive & offensive setting totally different from most. The KM is not only a trophy but also a confirmation of the lost ship’s setup, confirming that it was not just luck or overwhelming SP that lead to it’s loss.



Off topic, I’m glad Eve is a subscription game, otherwise it might just fall to the 'nerf kiddies', calling for all strategic data & play to be removed…..
Hauling Hal
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2011-12-28 16:49:43 UTC
Why should the person that dies dictate whether or not the killer can post details of the person he killed?

Why should the person that wins dictate whether or not the loser can post details of how he was killed?

Until everyone in Eve gets on together, in the kind, friendly, 'no, after you' sort of way, the OP's viewpoint is irrelevant.
Marduk Nibiru
Chaos Delivery Systems
#83 - 2011-12-28 18:06:39 UTC
Seleia O'Sinnor wrote:
Works as intended, petition closed.

No really, this is sadly the way CCP encourages the blood/tearshed. It's all about hurting players, taking what they own, feeling good about it and boast about it. So in terms of role playing games many players chose the tear harvester demon class.

It's established, removing it would make people emo quit rage, though I guess, those players deserve some crying themselves.


The butt-hurt in this forum is awesome!

Call me evil if you think so, but I just find that when people cry about their quarterback getting sacked I can't do anything but point and laugh.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2011-12-28 18:08:41 UTC
Marduk Nibiru wrote:
Seleia O'Sinnor wrote:
Works as intended, petition closed.

No really, this is sadly the way CCP encourages the blood/tearshed. It's all about hurting players, taking what they own, feeling good about it and boast about it. So in terms of role playing games many players chose the tear harvester demon class.

It's established, removing it would make people emo quit rage, though I guess, those players deserve some crying themselves.


The butt-hurt in this forum is awesome!

Call me evil if you think so, but I just find that when people cry about their quarterback getting sacked I can't do anything but point and laugh.


You can also ignore them and move along.. In case it didn't occur to you .
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#85 - 2011-12-28 18:21:50 UTC
Armored Phoenix wrote:
Killmails are the biggest problem with EVE. If you're in corp A you must be on X number of killmails a month. We're fighting corp B, and we know they use Z fit, so you must fly ship B and use fit Y. Killmails ruin the PVP aspect of the game for many other people. Considering how many threads I have seen about removing killmails, I know that I am not alone in this regard.

What other game do you play that gives more than just the name of character you killed, or even just basic stats like how many people you killed? What game, when you kill another character, tells you (regardless of whether you loot them or not) EXACTLY what they had equipped, how much damage they dealt, what buffs were affecting them, and (the ultimate bullshit) what was in their inventory?

Removing killmails would actually promote PVP, as more people would be willing to go into a fight, even knowing they may lose. No one would need to worry about being humiliated for so-called "lolfits". No one could be excluded for not having enough kills. Killmails take a lot of the fun out of the game.

If you want to know what your target has fitted or in cargo, use ship and cargo scanners before you kill them. Killmails are also a big reason that people gank. I won't argue that people gank for fun or profit, but people that do it just to pad their kill/lose ratio are just pathetic. Ganking is not PVP. Ganking is the equivalent of beating up the elderly (namely, a victim that can't fight back). Removing killmails won't stop people from ganking, but it may alter the reasons that they gank.

Get rid of killmails, and bring make EVE more fun to play. Even though is my industry main, I do have PVP alts who have operated in low- and null-sec. Feel free to flame me for this, but it is my opinion, based in simple facts.

Fly safe.

Edit: I have no problem with tracking kill/lose ratios. The problem that I have is the level of effortless intel provided by killmails. If you want to know how my ship is fit, or what cargo I am hauling, fit a ship and cargo scanner. Oh wait, that would require that you actually fit something that isn't tank or gank, and apply some effort to gaining the intel you desire.



Use a cargo and ship scanner before you kill them? For small scale pvp those slots are important and not to be wasted.

You say other games just give the number killed. You complain that some corps ask for a certain number killed. Well if we keep some statistic on numbers killed then the corps could still demand this. Removing the detail from killmails won't solve this at all. Are we not even going to know how many people we have killed? Is killing your alts in noob ships to count the same as killing cruisers with a frigate?

You say people gank in order to get killmails but you somehow don't think people engage in gfs for the killmails? If you admit both then it would seem killmails promote pvp.

The only thing you have said that might actually lead to killmails detering pvp is people might be embarrassed of their fit. I suppose such sensitive people who can't roll with the punches and take computer games so serious might exist. But I don't think ccp should cater to those people.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Nephilius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#86 - 2011-12-28 19:33:07 UTC
NoScream wrote:
I think enough have posted about the OP’s post, not only is he wrong in my opinion but playing a game where the special features like KM’s makes the gameplay more than your average FPS shooty game is just one extra reason why EVE is EVE.


Um, no. Besides, you are comparing apples to monkeys here.


NoScream wrote:
I recently played Battlefield 3 on PC, it was fun for a week or two, then it got nerffed by popular kiddy demand via the EA forums, so much was changed that the fun element was lost from the game, now every gun is like evey other, every sight is virtually the same as all the others with different graphics…. BF3 will die fast.


Wait, what? Cries for nerfs resound louder here than most online games I have played. Ships with a specialized role or feature get nerfed until they are useless (dram for one). The ironic thing is that each one of them had a way to be countered, but no one wants to take the time or effort to do so, or they expect to be able to solo everything. When they run across something they can't, the rabble nerf bat comes out.


NoScream wrote:
Eve is different, every ship can be configured in 100’s of 1000’s of ways, making every ships defensive & offensive setting totally different from most. The KM is not only a trophy but also a confirmation of the lost ship’s setup, confirming that it was not just luck or overwhelming SP that lead to it’s loss.


Sure, you can make countless configurations, just be prepared to get a ticket on the rapetrain with 90% of them. Nobody picks the crappy fits to use, and there is a reason for that.


NoScream wrote:
Off topic, I’m glad Eve is a subscription game, otherwise it might just fall to the 'nerf kiddies', calling for all strategic data & play to be removed…..


Sorry, but I don't really buy that. Strategy in Eve means zerg your victims when you can, run when you can't. And i think that is what the OP is referring to...the mentality that you can only have fun when you win. KMs do alot to help perpetuate that mentality.

BUT...while I do think they serve a purpose as well, the KM should reflect only the one who got the killing blow. What we have now is the equivalent to a Medal of Honor recipient's entire squad getting a medal too because they happened to be there. The level of r-tardation that the current incarnation carries is phenomenal, and is truly more inaccurate than accurate right now. Not only that, but the need to KM hoard is so prevelant that I once had to wait 30 minutes just so a corpie could get in on it too. That was such a waste that at that moment, I just didn't give a crap about them anymore.

KMs aren't Medals of Honor...they're more like a facebook page that all your buddies can be a part of.
"If."
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#87 - 2011-12-28 20:13:51 UTC
Xolve wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
1. Combat log. Its mine. It is not effortless to kill you. I earned it, I deserve it. If I choose to share that intel with the internet for free that is my and the internets business.
2. Killboards. They were broken, IMHO, for listing POS modules and other inanimate objects. They fixed that, and now keep track of implants.
3. Forced PvP. If your corp forces you to do PvP that you don't want to do, you are a ******* leech. Don't join a PvP corp for the sake of being in a PvP corp, join one for shooting motherfuckers.
4. Intel. Between local and evewho as intel tools you can be an intel pro in any sector of space. Your only excuse is that you are lazy. There is no reason to want intel on YOUR enemy. If I am trying to kill you, you need intel on me. Those are the tools that help you get the killmail that have nothing to do with killmails, and they are lethal. Cry about them while you are trying to kill PvP moar.



Funny coming from a 'don't griefs me' carebear ****** last week.. sudden change of heart?


You assumed that because you're a tool who was unable or unwilling to use the very intel tools we are discussing in this thread. I want people to stop griefing noobs so that there are more people on the server to kill. Anyone who can't figure out its a mutualistic symbiotic relationship is kind of below the learning curve.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#88 - 2011-12-28 20:15:57 UTC
The intel that Kill Mails provide is freely available to everyone. Smart players research their enemy, poor players do not. Why remove the resource because some choose not to take advantage of it.

Acquiring intel has always been of vital importance in any sport, game, or military operation. To take way something that the victor could logically acquire from investigating the wreck of their victims makes little, if any, sense.

Players in any game like to be able to judge their performance. Putting limits on this would be "off putting" to most of the player base for no good reason.

The people that avoid combat because of Kill Mails would simply find another excuse not to get involved in combat if they were removed.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#89 - 2011-12-28 20:18:33 UTC
Seleia O'Sinnor wrote:
I guess it was a first class motivation to kick Iceman from the first place.



Hated that bastard Cool

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#90 - 2011-12-28 20:20:36 UTC
Norrin Ellis wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing kill mails removed from the game in order to reduce ganking for the explicit purpose of mindless e-peenery. Pushing PvP in the direction of being driven by meaningful in-game objectives rather than free intel, lulz, and meta-game ego stroking would make the game seem more realistic to me; as an RPer, I think that's important.

On the other hand, I don't PvP nearly enough to care, and because I make most of my ISK without undocking, I don't have to worry about the gankfest.


Why? Any ship can be ganked. If a "real" PvP'er see's someone with all gank mails, it makes them MORE of a target.

Also, if you are the target, and you die, and don't change your fit/habbits, you really aren't learning.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Xolve
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#91 - 2011-12-28 20:41:27 UTC
Killmails are an intelligence tool with combined bragging rights. and that is it.

Having an inordinate amount of killmails, doesn't magically make you immune to the drudgery
of 'lesser pilots'; or increase the effectiveness of your ship. I don't think the problem is
necessarily killmails as much as it is killboards.

This is EvE, once you accept/experience/want to participate in PvP, you will lose ships,
this is a given. More often then not, in the process of seperating yourself from your ship
you made a bad decision or you were being actively chased and/or hunted by someone
more experienced then you.

Winning fights in EvE has far less to do with how you fit your ship, and much more to do
with placing your opponent willingly or unwillingly into a situation where you have the tools
to come out successful; be it solo, with friends/alts or into a trap of unsuspecting nastiness.
If patient, and willing to wait for the above conditions to happen, chances are; your victory
will be sweet, and you will have a mail to remind you of it.

The big problem here- is with the people that think Killboard Stats makes them somehow
superior then others, while KBs can be used as a tool, to asess the threats of another pilot;
its not a 100% be-all, end-all. There are fleet pilots that are just as good (if not better solo),
and solo pilots, that can't understand the possibility of fleet combat. Theres even blob warfare
where it has nothing to do with the individual pilot, squad or wing, but the mulitple FCs and
target callers driving the bus to victory.

If PvP in EvE is ever defined by a player to be all inclusively about amassing killmails in a risk
free manner, it will stop being fun, they will burn out, and eventually quit. Play EvE to Play EvE.
PvP to relish in explosions, hopefully theirs, sometimes yours. As long as you learn from your
mistakes, or the mistakes of others, you will continue to improve.
Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#92 - 2011-12-28 20:49:00 UTC
A GREAT thing CCP has done was to post the implants that someone was using when you get a pod killmail. :P

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Kel'Tarus
League of Gentlemen Extraordinaire
#93 - 2011-12-28 21:19:29 UTC
The Op's idea is about as dumb as putting tomato in a fruit salad or adding cream to a soda.

Why fix it if it ain't broken
Alara IonStorm
#94 - 2011-12-28 21:22:30 UTC
Kel'Tarus wrote:
The Op's idea is about as dumb as putting tomato in a fruit salad or adding cream to a soda.

I loaned you my cook book in good faith...

STOP USING IT TO MAKE FUN OF PEOPLE!
Velicitia
XS Tech
#95 - 2011-12-28 21:24:19 UTC
Tomato in fruit salad I get...

... but what's wrong with cream soda?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Kel'Tarus
League of Gentlemen Extraordinaire
#96 - 2011-12-28 21:28:15 UTC
Not cream soda, I'm talking about cream (dairy product) that you put in coffee. Who in the right mind would add that to their soda?!

Why fix it if it ain't broken
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#97 - 2011-12-28 21:35:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Armored Phoenix wrote:
Killmails are the biggest problem with EVE. GIANT SNIP


EXCELLENT IDEA !

I care for them NOT.

THIS.....WOULD set EVE apart from all other MMOs.

Definitely a unique feature, and it's counter-negativity information-wise towards both players is REALLY in the spirit of EVE.

You still get all the loot or whatever. Who cares what their SHIP was WEARING that day !

BRILLIANT !

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#98 - 2011-12-28 21:36:45 UTC
Kel'Tarus wrote:
The Op's idea is about as dumb as putting tomato in a fruit salad or adding cream to a soda.



Tomatoes ARE a fruit, not a vegetable.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Kel'Tarus
League of Gentlemen Extraordinaire
#99 - 2011-12-28 21:43:21 UTC
EvE has already been set apart from other MMOs. You fly spaceships in a sandbox world with probably the most sophisticate PvP system out there.

Why fix it if it ain't broken.

Knowledge is knowing that tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is knowing not to put one in fruit salad.
Get it yet, genius?

Why fix it if it ain't broken
yopparai
ASTARTES CORP
Hashashin Cartel
#100 - 2011-12-28 21:44:11 UTC
They should change all the weapons systems so that the only fire cotton candy; that would fix pvp.