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why do players stay in npc corps?

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Yuri Ostrovskoy
Doomheim
#1181 - 2015-05-30 01:44:43 UTC
At least we can take comfort in knowing you people are no longer forced on us, we're forced on you. You have to deal with us, and not the other way around.

Cheers "mate"
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1182 - 2015-05-30 01:48:06 UTC
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:
At least we can take comfort in knowing you people are no longer forced on us, we're forced on you. You have to deal with us, and not the other way around.

Cheers "mate"


Don't make me break out the Jackie Chan meme again.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1183 - 2015-05-30 01:49:24 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:
At least we can take comfort in knowing you people are no longer forced on us, we're forced on you. You have to deal with us, and not the other way around.

Cheers "mate"


Don't make me break out the Jackie Chan meme again.


Didn't work anyway...
Too bad... Could use another meme for Facebook...
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1184 - 2015-05-30 01:54:46 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

You're so much more useful as targets instead.


But they look like people. You don't shoot people. In fact you haven't shot anything in 2015 except a POS.

I don't think they need to fear you, really. No sticks and stones. Just empty bravado.

Mr Epeen Cool
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#1185 - 2015-05-30 01:56:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Joe Risalo wrote:
correlation not causation

We covered this about 30 pages ago in the thread.

It's likely that the causes of long term player retention are too varied to narrow down into something that can be focused on for a good return on the investment. I'd also happily bet each of us in this thread have different reasons for staying with the game.

But we (carebears and pvpers alike) are the 10% that find the play that attracts us, for whatever reason.

Clearly based on the data, that 90% that leave quickly, don't. Some would probably never find it, but CCP realise there is an opportunity cost if they just kept doing the same thing. So they decided to do something different and try to expose more new players to a broader range of possible experiences.

From there, it's up to the players and there will still be a lot that leave. But if some of that 90% end up as long term subscribers, that's good for everyone, irrespective of the individual cause.

So the causes are great to know (CCP exit surveys seem to be their main source of data for that), but equally important are the experiences that correlate with the retention of the 10% of us that stay.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1186 - 2015-05-30 01:58:54 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

You're so much more useful as targets instead.


But they look like people. You don't shoot people. In fact you haven't shot anything in 2015 except a POS.

I don't think they need to fear you, really. No sticks and stones. Just empty bravado.

Mr Epeen Cool



Well you see, when you can't awox anymore, your combat capabilities are pretty limited...
Kinda hard to kill people when you don't know how they're fit.
Yuri Ostrovskoy
Doomheim
#1187 - 2015-05-30 02:01:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Yuri Ostrovskoy
Joe Risalo wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

You're so much more useful as targets instead.


But they look like people. You don't shoot people. In fact you haven't shot anything in 2015 except a POS.

I don't think they need to fear you, really. No sticks and stones. Just empty bravado.

Mr Epeen Cool



Well you see, when you can't awox anymore, your combat capabilities are pretty limited...
Kinda hard to kill people when you don't know how they're fit.


"Hello? 9-1-1? I just witnessed a murder"
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1188 - 2015-05-30 02:02:28 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Correlationnotcausation

We covered this about 30 pages ago in the thread.

It's likely that the causes of long term player retention are too varied to narrow down into something that can be focused on for a goid return on the investment. I'd also happily bet each of us in this thread have different reasons for staying with the game.

But we (carebears and pvpers alike) that are the 10% that find the play that attracts us, for whatever reason.

Clearly based on the data, that 90% that leave quickly, don't. Some would probably never find it, but CCP realise there is an opportunity cost if they just kept doing the same thing. So they decided to do something different and try to expose more new players to a broader range of possible experiences.

From there, it's up to the players and there will still be a lot that leave. But if some of that 90% end up as long term subscribers, that's good for everyone, irrespective of the individual cause.

So the causes are great to know (CCP exit surveys seem to be their main source of data for that), but equally important are the experiences that correlate with the higher retention of the 10% of us that stay.


Well said.

Now, if only we could get some of these people to realize that nerfing NPC corps doesn't fix CCP's issue.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#1189 - 2015-05-30 02:48:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Joe Risalo wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Correlationnotcausation

We covered this about 30 pages ago in the thread.

It's likely that the causes of long term player retention are too varied to narrow down into something that can be focused ...


...

Now, if only we could get some of these people to realize that nerfing NPC corps doesn't fix CCP's issue.

Depends on perspective I guess.

I don't think there is any risk that CCP will nerf NPC Corps so the following is just a random thought rather than a call for action. Even if it was, it would just as much be a call for changes to many player corps:

Whether the CEO is an NPC or a player, corporations are at their core, groups of players. It's players that bring content to each other whether through conflict or support and within the game, the role of corporations is largely to provide support (eg. Common goals, shared experiences, services, etc.).

Where corporations aren't doing that what's the point of the corporation even existing, especially the starter corps where it could be argued that the internal engagement and assistance should be the highest out of any corps?

If the starter corps don't provide that support, it could be argued that time in them should be limited so that new players struggling to find the experience that hooks them, are moved after a short period to an alternative where they might find it.

Of the reasons listed in this long thread for staying in an NPC Corp, they seem to most commonly boil down to:

1. Wardec immunity (eg. Hauler alts)
2. Anonymity (eg. Links alts)
3. No interest in social play and want to play solo

None of us have said "so we can help others, especially new players".

Self interest, rather than shared interest, is the most common reason we use NPC Corps. That's also the antithesis of what new players seem to benefit most from.

So if, aside from notable exceptions like CAS, most of us stay in NPC Corps for personal reasons and not to be part of a Corp, why shouldn't that be nerfed?

Why also shouldn't new players be moved away from that environment as soon as possible because the other players in their corp are not interested in them? Why not move them somewhere else so they have a better chance of finding people interested in helping them?

A more harsh view might even be that if players in NPC Corps don't want nerfs then they should start acting like members of a Corp and not just as a way to easily hide or play alone, because otherwise they aren't being members of that Corp anyway.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1190 - 2015-05-30 03:11:27 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Depends on perspective I guess.

I don't think there is any risk that CCP will nerf NPC Corps so the following is just a random thought rather than a call for action. Even if it was, it would just as much be a call for changes to many player corps:

Whether the CEO is an NPC or a player, corporations are at their core, groups of players. It's players that bring content to each other whether through conflict or support and within the game, the role of corporations is largely to provide support (eg. Common goals, shared experiences, services, etc.).

Where corporations aren't doing that what's the point of the corporation even existing, especially the starter corps where it could be argued that the internal engagement and assistance should be the highest out of any corps?

If the starter corps don't provide that support, it could be argued that time in them should be limited so that new players struggling to find the experience that hooks them, are moved after a short period to an alternative where they might find it.

Of the reasons listed in this long thread for staying in an NPC Corp, they seem to most commonly boil down to:

1. Wardec immunity (eg. Hauler alts)
2. Anonymity (eg. Links alts)
3. No interest in social play and want to play solo

None of us have said "so we can help others, especially new players".

So if, aside from notable exceptions like CAS, most of us stay in NPC Corps for personal reasons and not to be part of a Corp, why shouldn't that be nerfed?

Why also shouldn't new players be moved away from that environment as soon as possible because the other players in their corp are not interested in them? Why not move them somewhere else so they have a better chance of finding people interested in helping them?

A more harsh view might even be that if players in NPC Corps don't want nerfs then they should start acting like members of a Corp and not just as a way to easily hide or play alone, because otherwise they aren't being members of that Corp anyway.


So... Just put all new players in CAS by default, and problem solved? Heehee. Pirate

Although I do wonder what other place you think new players should move to. A one-person corp that they are CEO of? A random player-owned corp? Maybe a market-driven mechanic where corps bid ISK to be the next receiver of newbies? Specific corps chosen by CCP, for example GSF, IVY and BNI? Something new that's just like an NPC corp but is subject to war decs? A holding corp that prevents them from undocking or using the markets or contracts?
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1191 - 2015-05-30 03:12:26 UTC
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1192 - 2015-05-30 03:14:15 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Depends on perspective I guess.

I don't think there is any risk that CCP will nerf NPC Corps so the following is just a random thought rather than a call for action. Even if it was, it would just as much be a call for changes to many player corps:

Whether the CEO is an NPC or a player, corporations are at their core, groups of players. It's players that bring content to each other whether through conflict or support and within the game, the role of corporations is largely to provide support (eg. Common goals, shared experiences, services, etc.).

Where corporations aren't doing that what's the point of the corporation even existing, especially the starter corps where it could be argued that the internal engagement and assistance should be the highest out of any corps?

If the starter corps don't provide that support, it could be argued that time in them should be limited so that new players struggling to find the experience that hooks them, are moved after a short period to an alternative where they might find it.

Of the reasons listed in this long thread for staying in an NPC Corp, they seem to most commonly boil down to:

1. Wardec immunity (eg. Hauler alts)
2. Anonymity (eg. Links alts)
3. No interest in social play and want to play solo

None of us have said "so we can help others, especially new players".

Self interest, rather than shared interest, is the most common reason we use NPC Corps. That's also the antithesis of what new players seem to benefit most from.

So if, aside from notable exceptions like CAS, most of us stay in NPC Corps for personal reasons and not to be part of a Corp, why shouldn't that be nerfed?

Why also shouldn't new players be moved away from that environment as soon as possible because the other players in their corp are not interested in them? Why not move them somewhere else so they have a better chance of finding people interested in helping them?

A more harsh view might even be that if players in NPC Corps don't want nerfs then they should start acting like members of a Corp and not just as a way to easily hide or play alone, because otherwise they aren't being members of that Corp anyway.

That really isn't a reason NPC corps should be nerfed. The logic certainly follows that a group of primarily self seeking players isn't the most helpful to new players. I don't think there can be any doubt to that. At the same time NPC corps serve a second function, corps for the corpless. That function in no way gets conflicted when self serving players or playstyles exist within them.

Unless you are arguing that the long term NPC corp dwellers were never considered, which I believe false as the NPC corp tax was added for just that reason, then the statement about them purely being for new player benefit doesn't seem to hold up.

There is some merit to the idea of older players providing help to new players in NPC corps, that said the best new player organizations do tend to be player corps. Anyone can enter the NPC corps and advocate for new members to those corps, but it's rare I see it done.

I'd ask the question, why do those in the best places to help new players, player corps, interact with the new players in NPC corps far less than they have the option to? And further, why should those with fewer tools and potentially knowledge on top of experience likely concentrated to a single area of the game be expected to successfully fill that void?
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#1193 - 2015-05-30 03:26:26 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
So... Just put all new players in CAS by default, and problem solved? Heehee. Pirate

Although I do wonder what other place you think new players should move to. A one-person corp that they are CEO of? A random player-owned corp? Maybe a market-driven mechanic where corps bid ISK to be the next receiver of newbies? Specific corps chosen by CCP, for example GSF, IVY and BNI? Something new that's just like an NPC corp but is subject to war decs? A holding corp that prevents them from undocking or using the markets or contracts?

Not being a game designer, I don't have any good response. The CAS option is probably as good as any, though that would potentially impact on some role play/Lore aspects that are also important to people.

Aside from that none of the options I can think of adequately address it, other than what CCP are already doing by trying to expose new players to varied experiences and increasing the possibilities that player corps will recruit and will be discovered.
Yuri Ostrovskoy
Doomheim
#1194 - 2015-05-30 03:44:05 UTC
So over the last 60 pages, why haven't we seen anyone actually offer any incentives to join thier corps? If a player corp is superior, why haven't any of you taken this opportunity to run open recruitment and show us your "better way"? Or is it because the outspoken are actually fine with npc corps, as long as they can pummel them without repercussions?
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#1195 - 2015-05-30 03:58:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:
So over the last 60 pages, why haven't we seen anyone actually offer any incentives to join thier corps? If a player corp is superior, why haven't any of you taken this opportunity to run open recruitment and show us your "better way"? Or is it because the outspoken are actually fine with npc corps, as long as they can pummel them without repercussions?

Personally, as a recruiter I offer what we can to players in game. The forum is a poor place to reach out to people.

In addition to that, GD is not the place for open recruitment. That's what the recruitment forum is for and there are plenty of examples there.

I think also that question would be a different thread.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#1196 - 2015-05-30 06:48:09 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Eli Stan wrote:
So... Just put all new players in CAS by default, and problem solved? Heehee. Pirate

Although I do wonder what other place you think new players should move to. A one-person corp that they are CEO of? A random player-owned corp? Maybe a market-driven mechanic where corps bid ISK to be the next receiver of newbies? Specific corps chosen by CCP, for example GSF, IVY and BNI? Something new that's just like an NPC corp but is subject to war decs? A holding corp that prevents them from undocking or using the markets or contracts?

Not being a game designer, I don't have any good response. The CAS option is probably as good as any, though that would potentially impact on some role play/Lore aspects that are also important to people.

Aside from that none of the options I can think of adequately address it, other than what CCP are already doing by trying to expose new players to varied experiences and increasing the possibilities that player corps will recruit and will be discovered.

Exactly. This is all CCP is trying to do. All the hand-wringing and fear of change in this thread is misplaced. CCP's data strongly support their current view that it is social interactions, such as being in a player corp, that increase the chance players will join the game. So CCP is going to implement new ways to teach players (Opportunities) about these social activities, as well other changes to game play in effort to get new players to at least try these activities (market trading, joining a fleet, PvPing, etc.) which seem to retain players better than those that follow a solo mining or "leveling that Raven" path in the game. I fail to see how anyone can be against that.

Nerfing NPC corps isn't a magic bullet that is going to solve this problem or CCP would have started with that move. Some sort of NPC corp is necessary for new players to start out in, to fall back to when their corp implodes or they take a break, and for the truly risk-averse in this game. However, if they are too comfortable or lucrative, they will be exploited for free safety by veteran players who want to earn a competitive income in isolation but not spend effort on a defense as is far too much the case now.

CCP likes to move slowly and carefully so if this new strategy to expose new players to these social aspects of the game continues to prove to be a success, they will start making changes to buff players corps and/or nerf NPC corps (which as Kaarous correctly pointed out are functionally equivalent). I think it will probably be more of the former via new structures, but some changes to NPC corps that have no impact on a truly new player while making it less comfortable for those seeking maximum ISK/h to hide in them are not out of the question. Whether that is increased risk, or decreased income in NPC corps will be up to CCP.

I don't know why people act so surprised that Eve development is moving towards a more social, PvP and player-driven direction and that some of their sacred cows might be slaughtered. CCP Seagull stood up two years ago and gave us her grand vision of Eve which included such phrases as "player-driven stories", "Empires loosing their grip" and "everything will be destructible". She also literally said they are going to "challenge a lot of old truths and a lot of old ideas about how things have to be in EVE...". None of that is compatible with players being able to hide in NPC corps forever making a competitive ISK/h solo while under the free protection of CONCORD and immune from the actions of other players.

Folks, times they are a-changin'.

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Why Do They Gank?
Solstice Punk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1197 - 2015-05-30 07:33:17 UTC

Turn current rookiecorps into regular npc corps.
Make npc corps choseable whenever one leaves a playercorp.
Give people information about the activities of players in these corps.

Problem solves itself as good players will spread out into them and drive out the bad players who sent everyone into isolation.

It's a nobrainer, really.

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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1198 - 2015-05-30 08:36:35 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
CCP is going to implement new ways to teach players (Opportunities) about . . . social activities, as well other changes to game play in effort to get new players to at least try these activities (market trading, joining a fleet, PvPing, etc.) which seem to retain players better than those that follow a solo mining or "leveling that Raven" path in the game. I fail to see how anyone can be against that.


I also fail to see how anyone can be against that, but here you are arguing for CCP to push players away from one of the oldest mechanisms for encouraging such social interaction, NPC corporations. Don't you want noobs to have a way to interact and network with other players right from the start? Why are you advocating taking that away from them? Don't you want noobs to succeed?
And, why do you keep demeaning the playstyle of people who "level their Ravens"? If you don't like playing a game where people can choose to interact or not, maybe this isn't the game for. People have freedom of choice in EVE. Its one of the great and unique things about this game. Love it or leave it.

Black Pedro wrote:
However, if [NPC corporations] are too comfortable or lucrative, they will be exploited for free safety by veteran players who want to earn a competitive income in isolation but not spend effort on a defense as is far too much the case now.


I agree. In fact, ANY corporation that is TOO comfortable or TOO lucrative should be nerfed. If you can sit in a system all by yourself for hours on end mining high end ore or doing high end anomalies or you can make a billion ISK a day (over a PLEX a day!) or hauling around billions in cargo in perfect safety, CCP should nerf you.
Now, you and I, Black Pedro, may not know who all these corps are, but CCP knows. I commend you for having the courage to speak out and hopefully CCP will take our advice and nerf the ******* into oblivion.
Too much safety and comfort and income for people who abuse mechanics is a problem in EVE. Bravo to you for taking such a principled stance.

Am I doing this right?

Black Pedro wrote:
CCP likes to move slowly and carefully so if this new strategy to expose new players to these social aspects of the game continues to prove to be a success, they will start making changes to buff players corps and/or nerf NPC corps (which as Kaarous correctly pointed out are functionally equivalent). I think it will probably be more of the former via new structures, but some changes to NPC corps that have no impact on a truly new player while making it less comfortable for those seeking maximum ISK/h to hide in them are not out of the question. Whether that is increased risk, or decreased income in NPC corps will be up to CCP.


This is hardly a new strategy. The implementation of things like NPC corporations from such an early stage in EVE's development should tell you that CCP has been trying to encourage players to interact for quite a long time. I don't know why you think scattering NPC corp players to the four winds will INCREASE their interaction, socialization, and retention. I certainly haven't seen any official statement by CCP stating their intention to reverse course and start dismantling NPC corporations and other mechanisms that encourage social interaction in the game. In fact, I suspect they have a desire to increase security for high sec and NPC corp players. They might even want to nerf player corps to encourage their members to rejoin NPC corporations where they can contribute to the interaction and socialization of new players more directly and efficiently.

So you see, Black Pedro, you are not the only one who can make logically inconsistent, passive aggressive posts laced with pathos, bias, and misinformation. Some of us just prefer to communicate in a more civilized manner. I only do it in this instance to rub your nose in it like a puppy who has just **** on the carpet. BAD DOGGIE!
Solstice Punk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1199 - 2015-05-30 08:40:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Punk
Wow that's really immature and childish.
Calm down, miner. This isn't your life, okay ?

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Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#1200 - 2015-05-30 08:46:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Omar Alharazaad
This thread... I need the extra big popcorn bucket for it.
And of course, cannot forget the butter and salt.

My arteries may hate me for it.
Now I'm hungry. I blame all of you.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.