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Out of curiosity, is there a time line for when the new sov will hit SISI?
As of now, SBU's are still required to take sov. Which sort of makes everything else redundant.

How will attackers know how long it is likely to take to disable anything.
I went and disable 3 station services that took around 12 mins each. 2 days later i went back to the same system and it took 24 mins to disable a partly disabled station service. It didn't go back to zero and start again, it continued on from where it was but took double the time than previously.

Hopefully June 2016 is the actual release date. Right now there is a lot of important information missing.

Devs are well aware of the issues facing new groups who want to try the sov game. (they designed it that way)
The whole concept is biased against them and if Devs need the CSM to point that out to them, there really is something wrong at CCP and come September, if CCP haven't already made the needed changes, it will likely be too late to bother.

Those groups naive enough to believe the story told by Fozzie in his blog about the opportunities for new groups, will go and try to take sov, get stomped a few times then pack up and leave. Devs can then make as many "fixes" as they like, many of those groups will not try again.

There is no AU-TZ fix, it is a pointless compromise.
So far,6 of 8 stated goals are not achievable with the current proposal.

I have to disagree with you in part. The fact existing sov holders can easily defend is a huge issue - That is what will stop new groups taking sov in the first place. An unused system that has been held for years will have defensive indexes high enough to allow the sov holders to turn up enmasse to defend it (whether they want to keep it or not is not relevant). Combine that with a 48 hr timer followed by constellation wide, whack a mole with lasers and you have a recipe for disaster for the new comer.

Unclaimed sov will be relatively easy to flip - Yes it will and if there was any it may help small groups a little. The fact you need to dislodge an existing entity from unused sov before you can flip it = existing entity gets killmails, new group gets stomped.

Like i said a few pages back - If the existing groups in Sov thought for a second FozzieSov was a threat to them, they would be screaming it all over the forums. The fact they have stayed quiet should have been enough for Devs to see, these changes are not going to achieve stated goals. The existing groups see Fozziesov as a way to pad killboards for a few months with those new groups silly enough to try and take sov.

Players have waited years for something positive to be done about sov and to be fed this load of rubbish now, makes me wonder, is it worth waiting longer? Devs had the opportunity to bring about valid changes and instead designed mechanics to suit existing groups.

Did you think that wasn't the point? Yes, new groups will get stomped. Old groups will stroke each other about all the tears they created by stomping said groups. That is what's going to happen, because that's what keeps the most people logging in. The vast majority log in to participate in the mutual stroking. They want to feel powerful, not victimized.

There isn't anything CCP can do about that. There isn't anything that CCP wants to do about that.

Fozziesov has already reshaped the map before it even launched. Renter empires have disappeared, because the power blocs that controlled them don't want the morale suck that would have ensued from trying to defend them from constant harassment. Significant changes to fozziesov have already been made because of the level of whining coming from the major power blocs about its potential to make their members feel victimized. It's been watered down for that reason. When people feel victimized, instead of powerful, they stop playing.



Which players? The vast majority of null players belong to enormous power blocs because they want to be the man, not the underdog trying to stick it to the man. They want to play the alliance flunky in the funny hat, or the imperial storm trooper, not Malcolm Reynolds, or Han Solo. They're followers. Joiners. Get it? CCP is in business to make money. CCP is going to give them what they want.

As long as they join up in the thousands to get the ego stroke that comes with being the man, CCP is going to cater to that. The change that you want is a change in player mentality, not game mechanics.

Why would they want to? Most of their null-sec player base belongs to those big groups. Those big groups would not, and could not exist if people did not join them, and preferred forming smaller groups of their own instead. Why would CCP want to try to force the bulk of their player base not to do what they want to do?



Yes. Yes they did. Look at it from CCP's perspective. They're kind of between a rock and a hard place now. They've tried a couple of times to create another game that is a commercial success, other than Eve, and failed. Now, they're kind of beholden as a company to the handful of people who lead the bulk of their player base. They're going to place a lot of weight on what those people want.



That would be an existential risk for them to take, as a company. If they get it wrong, they go out of business. All they have to go by is player behavior. Players seem to want to join big power blocs, which could not exist if players preferred, instead, to form smaller "screw the man" groups, rather than huge "we're the man!" groups. Making it too hard to do what their players seem to want to do is a huge risk for them to take.



Those CEOs would like you to think so, but that's really not true. You can get together a small group of your friends and run around low-sec or NPC null getting content every night of the week, and content that's usually more fun than sitting in some TIDI cluser-f. Players join huge groups because they want the ego-stroke that comes with belonging to one of the most powerful groups. The huge groups could not and would not exist if this were not the case. As long as that's what the bulk of 0.0 players demonstrate that they want, CCP is going to keep giving them what they want.

What evidence do you have that necessity alone drives people to join these groups? Do you really think that the only thing holding "The Imperium" as an example, together is necessity? I think you're completely discounting identity politics, and player mentality. If most Eve players were "anti-establishment" on principle, these groups could not attract thousands, or in the case of Imperium, tens of thousands of members. Most eve players are not, though. They want to feel powerful, and being associated with one of the big blocs gives them that. That, and safety.

That's what they want. They want to be able to log on and feel powerful because they have the weight of a big bloc's numbers and wealth behind them. CCP will screw with that at their own peril, and they know it.

When the game was young, nobody was that powerful. Everyone fought tooth and nail for the little they could build, and going broke if you over-reached and failed, and finding yourself back in high-sec grinding missions again was expected. The game isn't young like that anymore. A more or less permanent upper-class has evolved that attracts numbers to it. Short of a server wipe that puts everyone back on a level playing field, or, mechanics that make it a lot easier to destroy accumulated wealth, it's going to stay that way. A change radical enough to disrupt that is more risk than CCP is willing to take on board, most likely. While it could re-energize the game and attract more subscriptions, it could also lose them more subscriptions than they can afford to lose.

My evidence is the fact that they, as individuals, can progress in the game just as effectively, and have just as much if not more fun, doing other things. They don't. They join big groups for identity.

There are players, right now, who get just as many kills, have more fun, and make more isk, than the vast majority of Goon or PL players. They have no problem with security at all, and they are the masters of their own destiny. What they don't have is the ego stroke and identity that comes with being in the "top-tier" of alliances/coalitions/mega-blocs, or the feeling of power that comes with having the weight of one of those groups behind them. For the masses, those things are important. Don't under-estimate that.

Out of curiosity: If I rat as a neutral in a system of another alliance, I obviously have an influence on the indexes of the system. Does my ratting help the holder of the sov or does it diminish their grasp on the system?
And is the completion of data/relic sites influencing the indexes just like ratting/indu is from the start? I don't quite remember the stance on that.

Thing is though - They aren't, many of the large group membership is off playing other games, while keeping 1 or 2 chars subbed to be called on "if" needed. With FozzieSov, they won't be needed so many have no reason to return.
While they have active subs and don't log in is good for CCP, it is not good for the game.

The ego stroking is true but it doesn't get people logging in. What will get people logging in is if their empire is under threat, Fozziesov enables the large groups to play AFK eve by not threatening them.

As for being watered down - No it wasn't, it was re-written to be biased against new groups.
The main driving force behind the movements in sov recently is; yes renter empires were going to be too difficult to maintain with so large and AFK membership AND more importantly, many realize, once FozzieSov is introduced, taking sov will be far harder than it is now and defending existing sov is all but a given.

Eve should not be about keeping certain groups happy at the expense of everyone else and the fact CCP is doing just that will see a lot more players leave, than the few upset ego strokers leaving would amount to. Many of the AFK, SPonline players would return if their empires came under threat, the coming changes give no reason for them to return.

With a little "balance" FozzieSov could create ongoing content in sov nul. If some of the members from large groups (many of whom play batfone online) get butt hurt because they actually have to fight to keep their sov and quit, so be it. Many more would log in to protect their part of the empire, which is much better for the game.

A few minor changes, could make all the difference.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5797661#post5797661

I would say that Alliances are less or little concerned by the actual content of the 'FozzieSov' changes and more worried about the inactivity it has created in it's member base.

The current trend to have multiple fleets of 'CareBears' roaring from system to system topping up the index figures covered as they need to be by PvP fleets is provoking marked resistance to even logging on for some members so as predicted that got Old but even quicker than even I expected, still no additional content generated chasing hostile players out of systems most preferring to dock up as usual and ignore them, if they hang around to long players are simply logging off and coming back another day so no gain there.

This slow death by griefers charter has not had the effect in it's initial stages CCP spun off on the forums that it would, seems they forgot that it's the players that need to engage with this process, not just the CCP Dev's.

I would say that currently there are large swathes of Null Sec though occupied, which are in fact ripe for the taking and I doubt anyone would object if you did as it would not be long before players doing so would feel the same way about it, Not really worth the effort, no incentive, lack of interest, what ever the base cause there is simple no fun in chasing your tail all day as any dog will testify too.

So Fozzie gets his way, a marked change in the demographic of players in favour of the credit card waving hordes, welcome to pay to win land.

Short answer would seem to be - Yes