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GCC and no more refitting in hisec space [Carnyx]

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Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-05-29 15:39:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Sibyyl
From patch notes for Carnyx:

Quote:
Ships in high-sec space piloted by a character with a Criminal Flag will now be unable to use in-space re-fitting facilities.




This should not affect Hyperdunking in any way. The only mention of the refitting tactic that I could find was in a Failhelp post from 2012 discussing CCP closing the boomerang exploit, so it seems like this tactic had been around for a while:

smagd wrote:
Combat refitting is probably an intended feature, since I'm fairly sure CCP is aware of the Rooks & Kings video that demonstrated refitting sieged dread back and forth between more tank and more gank and that's far more of an abuse if you ask me. ("Oh look I'm primary, switching out faction gyros for T2 hardeners").


This tactic is described by RnK Lord Maldoror, referencing their Clarion Call 4 video, in a Mittani article.



Why is this even an issue? Doesn't a criminal's warp-incapable ship get popped after CONCORD lands on grid?

Edit: posting from a phone is hard

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2 - 2015-05-29 15:49:04 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Why is this even an issue? Doesn't a criminal's warp-incapable ship get popped after CONCORD lands on grid?


Only possible thing I can imagine is stripping and dumping mods before the ship gets nuked, but I know I'm not fast-fingered enough to do that, and I haven't heard of it being a "thing", so, who knows *shrug*
Alundil
Rolled Out
#3 - 2015-05-29 15:51:33 UTC
I have no idea what issue this particular addition is supposed to address.

Can CCP provide some input on this?

I'm right behind you
SamuraiJack
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-05-29 15:52:03 UTC
I've got much better idea.

If you GCC. Concord Pods you. End of hyperdunking.

You are a criminal in highsec. They shouldnt just pop you. They should kill you. You broke the law. Have some ****ing concequences. Hows that for realism.

SJ's Chronicles - http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2103579/CLS-SamuraiJack
Shederov Blood
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#5 - 2015-05-29 15:54:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Shederov Blood
Last I heard of this was also during the boomerang days, and even then it was so much of a hassle that most didn't bother doing it.

Who put the goat in there?
Paranoid Loyd
#6 - 2015-05-29 16:02:59 UTC
Meh, if someone can give me a viable use for this tactic I will get out my pitchfork. Anchoring location restrictions and time to anchor make it too much of a pain to be useful while criminal.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Shederov Blood
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#7 - 2015-05-29 16:07:11 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Meh, if someone can give me a viable use for this tactic I will get out my pitchfork. Anchoring location restrictions and time to anchor make it too much of a pain to be useful while criminal.
They used to use an Orca to save the modules of their gank-ship before exploding. It enabled them to use more expensive stuff like faction damage mods, but it hasn't been a thing since the boomerang days since it's no longer possible to warp to your Orca after a gank.

Who put the goat in there?
Kashadin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2015-05-29 16:07:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kashadin
You don't get a GCC when shooting someone in NS or WHs, so at least this won't effect those areas tho I am curious how this will effect any cap fights in LS.

Only thing I can think of is that they did it because they found a thing where people were stripping off mods and tossing them into a container before being concorded, possibly being considered a exploit they wouldn't say anything about it till it was patched out.

**edit** They might have been using a Nestor for the refit, can park that on a gate and brick tank it to make sure it doesn't get ganked while you, well gank. And I read that the Bowhead has the ability for Refit, although I'm not sure if the gankers would risk that thing sitting there, tho it can get a ridiculous tank.
Paranoid Loyd
#9 - 2015-05-29 16:09:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Shederov Blood wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Meh, if someone can give me a viable use for this tactic I will get out my pitchfork. Anchoring location restrictions and time to anchor make it too much of a pain to be useful while criminal.
They used to use an Orca to save the modules of their gank-ship before exploding. It enabled them to use more expensive stuff like faction damage mods, but it hasn't been a thing since the boomerang days since it's no longer possible to warp to your Orca after a gank.

I guess I'm just lazy, that is entirely too much effort for something that is unnecessary 99% of the time.

Kashadin wrote:
You don't get a GCC when shooting someone in NS or WHs, so at least this won't effect those areas tho I am curious how this will effect any cap fights in LS.

It pretty specifically says highsec space.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2015-05-29 17:44:56 UTC
Kashadin wrote:


Only thing I can think of is that they did it because they found a thing where people were stripping off mods and tossing them into a container before being concorded, possibly being considered a exploit they wouldn't say anything about it till it was patched out.


If they say anything about an exploit, it should indeed be AFTER it's patched out to be sure people don't start milking the newfound* cow for all it's worth.

Newfound for those player indeed, not those who triggered the change.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#11 - 2015-05-29 18:03:25 UTC
Yeah, this is fairly obviously a change to enforce the costs of aggression, and little else.
SamuraiJack wrote:
I've got much better idea.

If you GCC. Concord Pods you. End of hyperdunking.
There's no reason to end that strategy though, and even less reason for NPCs to do the job assigned to players. If you want someone to lose their pod, it is your job to make that happen — stop trying to flog off your personal responsibilities on unrelated game mechanics, and your problem will go away. So you're confusing the word “better” with “nonsensical and pointless”.
SamuraiJack
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2015-05-29 18:21:57 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Yeah, this is fairly obviously a change to enforce the costs of aggression, and little else.
SamuraiJack wrote:
I've got much better idea.

If you GCC. Concord Pods you. End of hyperdunking.
There's no reason to end that strategy though, and even less reason for NPCs to do the job assigned to players. If you want someone to lose their pod, it is your job to make that happen — stop trying to flog off your personal responsibilities on unrelated game mechanics, and your problem will go away. So you're confusing the word “better” with “nonsensical and pointless”.


Or you're confusing exploitive abuse of "mechanics" as "gameplay"

But TLDR ppl want to be dicks in space. No change there... (but they keep their alts in NPC corps so you cant wardec them)

SJ's Chronicles - http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2103579/CLS-SamuraiJack
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#13 - 2015-05-29 18:48:00 UTC
it doesn't even fix the "impossible" fleet of -10's sitting on a gate bumping ships 300kms before the ganking.

the only thing it fixes is after you pop someone you cant go to an orca or pos and reship until your 15 mins is up

put more thought into it CCP

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2015-05-29 18:53:47 UTC

SamuraiJack wrote:
Or you're confusing exploitive abuse of "mechanics" as "gameplay"

But TLDR ppl want to be dicks in space. No change there... (but they keep their alts in NPC corps so you cant wardec them)


But it's not "exploitive". Official ruling.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Ashlar Maidstone
MoonFyre BattleGroup Holdings
#15 - 2015-05-29 21:56:48 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
From patch notes for Carnyx:

Quote:
Ships in high-sec space piloted by a character with a Criminal Flag will now be unable to use in-space re-fitting facilities.




This should not affect Hyperdunking in any way. The only mention of the refitting tactic that I could find was in a Failhelp post from 2012 discussing CCP closing the boomerang exploit, so it seems like this tactic had been around for a while:

smagd wrote:
Combat refitting is probably an intended feature, since I'm fairly sure CCP is aware of the Rooks & Kings video that demonstrated refitting sieged dread back and forth between more tank and more gank and that's far more of an abuse if you ask me. ("Oh look I'm primary, switching out faction gyros for T2 hardeners").


This tactic is described by RnK Lord Maldoror, referencing their Clarion Call 4 video, in a Mittani article.



Why is this even an issue? Doesn't a criminal's warp-incapable ship get popped after CONCORD lands on grid?

Edit: posting from a phone is hard


The tactic used by RnK is a valid tactic used everywhere else other than hisec as I have watched that particular clip a number of times, and as a result does NOT result in a GCC.

Editing from a phone is a pain btw LOL!.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#16 - 2015-05-29 22:32:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
SamuraiJack wrote:
Or you're confusing exploitive abuse of "mechanics" as "gameplay"

No. That would be you again. You think that something that has been designed as part of your gameplay should be turned into a passive game mechanic for no sane or sensible reason.

Quote:
Add to that recycling of alts etc... Rules dont apply right?
What does that rule have to do with anything? It applies to everyone equally and is of pretty much zero relevance to this change.

Agondray wrote:
it doesn't even fix the "impossible" fleet of -10's sitting on a gate bumping ships 300kms before the ganking.

Of course not, largely because there is nothing to fix. Also, there's nothing impossible about them, with or without quotation marks.

Quote:
the only thing it fixes is after you pop someone you cant go to an orca or pos and reship until your 15 mins is up

No, it doesn't “fix” that — in fact, it doesn't even touch that ability. This is a good thing since there's nothing to fix there either.

Again, all this fix does is enforce the costs of unlawful aggression. Nothing more, nothing less.
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#17 - 2015-05-29 23:43:59 UTC
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stoicfaux
#18 - 2015-05-30 01:03:02 UTC
Maybe to prevent you from refitting and/or abusing the invulnerability link at a citadel?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5739809#post5739824
"Refitting will most likely drain capacitor (like on ships) so while you could do it in combat, this would not be advisable."

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5739809#post5739836
"Yeah it's going to be a new docked state, like a cross between docking in a station and sitting inside a POS shield."

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5739873#post5739973
"The invulnerability link (we need a new name for this, taking suggestions) provides security while you are undocked and mobile around the structure."

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-05-30 01:12:06 UTC

Yes that makes a lot of sense stoicfaux. I remember there were a few suggestions for naming the Invulnerability Link, like Skylight.. combining this with GCC could be problematic.

I think your explanation, combined with Shed's historical explanation in post #7 explains this mystery..

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#20 - 2015-05-30 02:36:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Masao Kurata
Talos. Polarized neutron blaster cannons. Orca.

As far as I know nobody was actually doing it though, I did explain it to a few people and meant to myself but never got a good excuse to use it to its full potential with polarized guns. I did petition it (likely resulting in this nerf), and it was not an exploit at the time and presumably won't be one so feel free to do it this weekend. You won't have another chance.

it seems a bit silly that CCP decided to nerf a tactic which few gankers have even employed (I've used it a few times, just to save costs when the target's completely afk for the minute it takes to deploy a depot), but it won't affect the meta much.
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