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[Carnyx] Sentry Drone Adjustments

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Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#501 - 2015-05-28 07:29:23 UTC
Maxi Dap wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Maxi Dap wrote:
well there goes pve Ishtar again, still breathing thou, kick it again while on the ground in future patches. Eventually it will be as good as the rest of eve ships, we can have singularity then.



not going to lie there are plenty of other ships you can use in pve that don't disrupt balance in the rest of the game.


and yes things should always be balanced for pvp if the are overpowered in that area regardless of if they lose effectiveness in isk grinding or not


Ok, without lying let me see those other pve ships.

See if you can fit the criteria bellow:

460m budget
15 min C3 site clear avarage
Cruiser size hull
700+ dps out ot 65km range application


thats simply rediculous. this doesn't strike you as over the top?

Maxi Dap wrote:

So why not just leave? I have a hard time seeing them keeping tackle when burdened with sentries and trying to kite, unless you are just completely out numbered or they have skirmish linked Arezu/Lachesis or similar sillyness

It really seems like a lot of the complaints stem from trying to fight in conditions that favor the enemy.


If you are in a gang out for trouble, leaving is no problem. But what happens when you'd like to defend your POS/Station, with all your stuff in it? Leaving then means abandoning your home. You'll need a whole fleet of bombers just to clear multiple waves of sentries but they cannot stay on grid for combat because torpedoes are bad against speeding ishtars and would be shredded by warriors. With the upcoming changes to SOV mechanics, grid control is an important thing and if the only alternative to abandon grid is bringing more ishtars than your opponent, something is wrong for sure.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#502 - 2015-05-28 07:31:56 UTC
Maxi Dap wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Maxi Dap wrote:
well there goes pve Ishtar again, still breathing thou, kick it again while on the ground in future patches. Eventually it will be as good as the rest of eve ships, we can have singularity then.



not going to lie there are plenty of other ships you can use in pve that don't disrupt balance in the rest of the game.


and yes things should always be balanced for pvp if the are overpowered in that area regardless of if they lose effectiveness in isk grinding or not


Ok, without lying let me see those other pve ships.

See if you can fit the criteria bellow:

460m budget
15 min C3 site clear avarage
Cruiser size hull
700+ dps out ot 65km range application

Those are fairly impressive numbers, seeing as I can't get such numbers out of two ships which are reasonably agreed to be OP almost everywhere, specifically tengu and loki.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Maxi Dap
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#503 - 2015-05-28 08:39:23 UTC
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:


thats simply rediculous. this doesn't strike you as over the top?



Over the top compared to what? Hi-sec mission running? Incursions? I mean if I want to make 160m an hour in a C3 Wh where the risk is quet high thats over the top? Really?

It's nto the Ishtar thats broken, its every other (same sized hull) ship balanced for pvp that makes them suck in pve. Sure there is plenty of BS that are capable of pve, and they are out there. But didn't you guys get the memo? this is cruisers online.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#504 - 2015-05-28 09:29:59 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Maxi Dap wrote:

Cruiser sized hull
700+ dps out ot 65km range application


This is literally everything that's wrong with them.

And by the way, Sleipnirs can do those sites roughly that fast.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#505 - 2015-05-28 10:01:51 UTC
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:

Maxi Dap wrote:

So why not just leave? I have a hard time seeing them keeping tackle when burdened with sentries and trying to kite, unless you are just completely out numbered or they have skirmish linked Arezu/Lachesis or similar sillyness

It really seems like a lot of the complaints stem from trying to fight in conditions that favor the enemy.


If you are in a gang out for trouble, leaving is no problem. But what happens when you'd like to defend your POS/Station, with all your stuff in it? Leaving then means abandoning your home. You'll need a whole fleet of bombers just to clear multiple waves of sentries but they cannot stay on grid for combat because torpedoes are bad against speeding ishtars and would be shredded by warriors. With the upcoming changes to SOV mechanics, grid control is an important thing and if the only alternative to abandon grid is bringing more ishtars than your opponent, something is wrong for sure.



I don't know.... Surely there are range bonuses ships that can fit sensor boosters and tracking enhancers to outrange sentries and just blap them from the sky? Rohk's seem like they could hit out further than you could get a sentry to go. It's not like the sentries are smaller than a cruiser and moving at all, should be pretty easy. If they were there to hit your POS. How many link augmentors are these ships supposed to be using? I understand it would be hard if only one person was defending the structure, but then several vs. One rarely works out for the one.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#506 - 2015-05-28 10:13:43 UTC
Standard ishtar fit hits to ~133km. That leaves a very small window of safety for ships to sit in because breach 150km and they're warping to you at ranges. Or they can burn out of range.

The only ships reliably able to push out that far are generally hybrid users, which hit 90% resists. A big enough ball of NApocs has some success, but typically only against smaller fleets
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#507 - 2015-05-28 10:24:33 UTC
Tamer wrote:
Dear CCP. That fix do nothing.
The only one thing you can do to nerf OP drone formats.

Add signature radius and/or reduce HP of drones.

1-2 bombs to kill drones, will be great.

Shield Ishtar has 60k EHP. Its drones in drone bay have 120k EHP combined.
CCP, why?
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#508 - 2015-05-28 11:12:02 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Standard ishtar fit hits to ~133km. That leaves a very small window of safety for ships to sit in because breach 150km and they're warping to you at ranges. Or they can burn out of range.

The only ships reliably able to push out that far are generally hybrid users, which hit 90% resists. A big enough ball of NApocs has some success, but typically only against smaller fleets



That may be the case... But if they warp to you then they have to deploy sentries again. don't stay there. The long range ship(s) are just to deal with the drones. Drones main weakness is being able to be shot. Use that.

Granted they are better than they were, but there was a day not long ago when drone based PvP was a bad joke. Remember why.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#509 - 2015-05-28 13:01:39 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Standard ishtar fit hits to ~133km. That leaves a very small window of safety for ships to sit in because breach 150km and they're warping to you at ranges. Or they can burn out of range.

The only ships reliably able to push out that far are generally hybrid users, which hit 90% resists. A big enough ball of NApocs has some success, but typically only against smaller fleets


I started doing a DPS graph of ship doctrine I could find other than ishtars by forcing the ship to shot at it's resist profile. The result were not really nice to see.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#510 - 2015-05-28 13:53:57 UTC
Cruise missiles have no issues hitting out that far and much farther. They have good application and totally selectable damage types.

But the only 2 dps ships that use cruise missiles are the Raven and Typhoon, both T1 battleships. So they take all that sentry drone damage right in the kisser. And they can get bombed to oblivion. So there really aren't any viable alternatives for heavy dps.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#511 - 2015-05-28 14:17:13 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Cruise missiles have no issues hitting out that far and much farther. They have good application and totally selectable damage types.

But the only 2 dps ships that use cruise missiles are the Raven and Typhoon, both T1 battleships. So they take all that sentry drone damage right in the kisser. And they can get bombed to oblivion. So there really aren't any viable alternatives for heavy dps.


You could use cerb to reach that far with heavy. Just don't use your bonused damage type because that would be "interesting"...
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#512 - 2015-05-28 14:41:49 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
Cruise missiles have no issues hitting out that far and much farther. They have good application and totally selectable damage types.

But the only 2 dps ships that use cruise missiles are the Raven and Typhoon, both T1 battleships. So they take all that sentry drone damage right in the kisser. And they can get bombed to oblivion. So there really aren't any viable alternatives for heavy dps.


You could use cerb to reach that far with heavy. Just don't use your bonused damage type because that would be "interesting"...



I think you mean futile.

Ravens can't do it either. Even 2x Rigor II, 1x flare II & PWNAGE

Vs MWD ishtar they do 53.3% / 40.3% of damage depending on TP range

Vs 100mn AB ishtar they do 23.1% / 17.4% of damage depending on TP range

And the fun part is to go from the 10mn MWD to the 100mn AB I need to change 0 other parts of the fit, it is a direct swap out.


Additionally, the damage takes so long to arrive that even if you're breaking reps (unlikely), they can warp off and back before the shields go down. It'll align and enter warp before the cruise missiles can cover even 100km, WITH the MWD running.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#513 - 2015-05-28 17:18:33 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
So why do people insist on trying to engage Ishtars with sentries out? I mean, orbit the sentries and don't let them kite you, or just shoot the sentries.

I don't fly Ishtars myself, but I have seen sentries in action. They die pretty quick and easy. I can't imagine they are doing a lot of rolling up, tackling, kiting and still keeping you really far from the setries without giving you the opportunity to leave.

You do that, please. And while you're orbiting our sentries that are 100km+ away, plinking away at the mass of EHP, we'll abandon them and drop new ones out here. And we'll kill your ships from out here... while you waste your time killing sentries.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#514 - 2015-05-28 17:31:06 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
DEFANDER wrote:
I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with.

We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. Smile

I think the whole forum would like an answer to one question.

What are sentries balanced against?

By the whole forum I guess you mean yourself and those that post in a similar vein. Really you should say that. Otherwise you presume too much.

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#515 - 2015-05-28 17:39:00 UTC
Deacon Abox wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
DEFANDER wrote:
I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with.

We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. Smile

I think the whole forum would like an answer to one question.

What are sentries balanced against?

By the whole forum I guess you mean yourself and those that post in a similar vein. Really you should say that. Otherwise you presume too much.



It is a valid question, everything else is balanced against the peer group. M Rails were nerfed because they were better than all the other medium weapons, for example.

Signature size suggests they ought to be measured against large class weapons, but that is but a supposition at this stage.

If CCP want feedback about balance, we need to know the bounds in which that weapon is to be compared. Otherwise it's impossible to provide reasonably competent or useful feedback.

If CCP are balancing these against "large" guns but the players are comparing them to the medium gun meta, there will be a huge disconnect in terms of feedback/design intent.

This isn't the kind of information that should be witheld, not if valid feedback is sought.
ashley Eoner
#516 - 2015-05-28 19:08:55 UTC
I love how in the "we're nerfing sentry drones" thread all the talk is about ishtars and how overpowered they are and not the actual drone nerf.

I would like to see James Baboli's question answered by ccp.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#517 - 2015-05-28 19:09:41 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Maxi Dap wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Maxi Dap wrote:
well there goes pve Ishtar again, still breathing thou, kick it again while on the ground in future patches. Eventually it will be as good as the rest of eve ships, we can have singularity then.



not going to lie there are plenty of other ships you can use in pve that don't disrupt balance in the rest of the game.


and yes things should always be balanced for pvp if the are overpowered in that area regardless of if they lose effectiveness in isk grinding or not


Ok, without lying let me see those other pve ships.

See if you can fit the criteria bellow:

460m budget
15 min C3 site clear avarage
Cruiser size hull
700+ dps out ot 65km range application

Those are fairly impressive numbers, seeing as I can't get such numbers out of two ships which are reasonably agreed to be OP almost everywhere, specifically tengu and loki.

I get pretty close with a Tengu:

[Tengu, Tengu HML]
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System

10MN Afterburner II
Medium Shield Booster II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Amplifier II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Shield Boost Amplifier II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I

Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay

685DPS from 71km
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#518 - 2015-05-28 19:34:06 UTC
Terra Chrall wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Maxi Dap wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Maxi Dap wrote:
well there goes pve Ishtar again, still breathing thou, kick it again while on the ground in future patches. Eventually it will be as good as the rest of eve ships, we can have singularity then.



not going to lie there are plenty of other ships you can use in pve that don't disrupt balance in the rest of the game.


and yes things should always be balanced for pvp if the are overpowered in that area regardless of if they lose effectiveness in isk grinding or not


Ok, without lying let me see those other pve ships.

See if you can fit the criteria bellow:

460m budget
15 min C3 site clear avarage
Cruiser size hull
700+ dps out ot 65km range application

Those are fairly impressive numbers, seeing as I can't get such numbers out of two ships which are reasonably agreed to be OP almost everywhere, specifically tengu and loki.

I get pretty close with a Tengu:

[Tengu, Tengu HML]
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System

10MN Afterburner II
Medium Shield Booster II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Amplifier II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Shield Boost Amplifier II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I

Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay

685DPS from 71km



At 90 mill/BCS, I think you are a bit over budget...
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#519 - 2015-05-28 19:52:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Terra Chrall
Frostys Virpio wrote:


At 90 mill/BCS, I think you are a bit over budget...
According to O.sium this Tengu is only 450M which was within the budget constraints asked for.

EDIT: O.Sium is not giving the right number.... or else I would not have brought this fit up. I'll see if I can fix it.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#520 - 2015-05-28 19:56:20 UTC
Terra Chrall wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


At 90 mill/BCS, I think you are a bit over budget...
According to O.sium this Tengu is only 450M which was within the budget constraints asked for.

Much as I love Http://o.smium.org the price tracker is a bit, well, wonky.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp