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[Carnyx] Sentry Drone Adjustments

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Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
#461 - 2015-05-26 19:03:18 UTC
Terra Chrall wrote:
My beef with control range limits is for everyone that does not use it in an abusive way. When I would run missions in my Dominix I would snipe from 100+ KM; with my imperfect skills I would have to use 3-4 DLAs and a SeBo with range script. Ishtar pilots basically get 1 free DLA which allows them to engage drones from a reasonable base distance for the design of the hull.

Control range only helps engage a target, it does not help hit or apply the damage, it simply allows the pilot to say shoot and the drone shoots. The drone is still limited by its optimal/falloff and tracking like any other weapon, if the target is out of the drones range the drone will miss 100% regardless of the control range. So other than certain kiting tactics, I don't see control range as a real problem. And I don't think a system should be balanced around one line of tactics, unless it is clearly exploitable.


Control range isn't really a problem for other ships because they can't really be compared to the constant kite ability of the Ishtar or VNI which is what allows them to subvert the negative effects of using a stationary sniping platform. Other's can do it, and if the problem isn't rectified they will simply become the next FOTM and more blame to be pinned on the damage application of sentries.

The Domi as you pointed out is an example of a ship that is typically used for PVE who also makes use of it's drones/sentries as a slow tanky BS, another example would be the rattlesnake. Both of which typically use geckos/heavies while on the move, then drop sentries once they reach a gate. They rarely drop sentries and continue moving as they would then have to return to them to pick them up. The exception being (typically for domi players) to drop their sentries, MJD away, kill their targets, then MJD back to scoop. Never really moving outside of a 120km range. Which is why I included the change for the domi in my initial post to give them a bonus to the new sentry control range. This also frees up high slots for sentry focused players as they no longer require a DLA at all, as they would only effect normal drones and not sentries.

Domi's in PVP typically will use neut highs and sit in their drone ball, forcing enemy players to make a decision or staying within sentry optimal, or go in for a brawl, or warp out. Their MJD is held specifically to escape bad situations and less for offensive re-positioning. The few rattlesnake doctrines that exist follow the exact same idea.

So altering the control range doesn't really effect the game as much as you would think, but really only the ships that already abuse the system.

Again tho, if you can think of an alternative by all means. This is just what seems to work out optimally on paper.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#462 - 2015-05-26 19:13:37 UTC
Therisa Workroun wrote:
My prefered option would have been to limit 'assigned drone' controls based on a new skillbook, that way Fleet Commanders would have to invest points into assigned drone control, but would still face an upper limit to the number of drones they could control.

If you can field 40 fleet members, that would be 200 maximum drones (400 maximum fighters / drones if supercapital fleet).

If you could only train to a maximum of 75 assigned drones, the number of fleet members cannot be the same, or there need to be multiple 'drone commanders' each with max skills, that could also be more easily jammed as Sensor boosting would need to be spread more evenly between the drone commanders than just making one imba sebo remsebo ship that has a million dps with everyone's drones.

Ofcourse, the way this would affect a lag free voice comms fleet is rather limited, perhaps a solution involving fleet members diminishing bandwidth to stay in fleet?

What are you talking about? Drone assist was fixed last year. A given fleet member can only control a maximum of 50 drones at a time, and fighters and fighter-bombers can't be assigned at all.

Drone assist has nothing to do with this.
Frank Padecain
Silvana Innovations
Fraternity.
#463 - 2015-05-26 19:59:47 UTC
It seems to me that larger ships such as the Domi, Rattler, and carriers use sentries as they are intended: while sitting still/orbiting at 500m.

Would changing the drone control range specific to sentries, therefore not affecting any other drone classes, be a better balance than introducing new sentry drone sizes?

The larger drone platform ships wouldn't suffer too much, they would still be stationary, but ships like the VNI and Ishtar would also have to remain stationary with their sentries, leaving them vulnerable to bomber fleets and making them easier to catch/neutralize their damage output.

Does this make sense? The Ishtar and VNI would still be viable, but would be flown as more of a kiting/skirmishing ship, allowing other HACs to get more love.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#464 - 2015-05-26 20:22:21 UTC
Frank Padecain wrote:
It seems to me that larger ships such as the Domi, Rattler, and carriers use sentries as they are intended: while sitting still/orbiting at 500m.

Would changing the drone control range specific to sentries, therefore not affecting any other drone classes, be a better balance than introducing new sentry drone sizes?

The larger drone platform ships wouldn't suffer too much, they would still be stationary, but ships like the VNI and Ishtar would also have to remain stationary with their sentries, leaving them vulnerable to bomber fleets and making them easier to catch/neutralize their damage output.

Does this make sense? The Ishtar and VNI would still be viable, but would be flown as more of a kiting/skirmishing ship, allowing other HACs to get more love.



Do you think the somewhat better resistance to E-WAR from drone cruiser is important enough to force them to nail themself down in space to shoot?
Frank Padecain
Silvana Innovations
Fraternity.
#465 - 2015-05-26 20:38:25 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Frank Padecain wrote:
It seems to me that larger ships such as the Domi, Rattler, and carriers use sentries as they are intended: while sitting still/orbiting at 500m.

Would changing the drone control range specific to sentries, therefore not affecting any other drone classes, be a better balance than introducing new sentry drone sizes?

The larger drone platform ships wouldn't suffer too much, they would still be stationary, but ships like the VNI and Ishtar would also have to remain stationary with their sentries, leaving them vulnerable to bomber fleets and making them easier to catch/neutralize their damage output.

Does this make sense? The Ishtar and VNI would still be viable, but would be flown as more of a kiting/skirmishing ship, allowing other HACs to get more love.



Do you think the somewhat better resistance to E-WAR from drone cruiser is important enough to force them to nail themself down in space to shoot?


I just think that the ability to consistently project 500-600 dps at extreme range paired with the ability to zoom around the battlefield at high speeds with decent tank is dominant in a PvP situation, and the counter shouldn't be to field more of the exact same thing.
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
#466 - 2015-05-26 23:15:54 UTC
@Frank, you should read my posts from about page 22 to now. Basically covering the same thing you're saying.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#467 - 2015-05-26 23:41:58 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Since CCP is so convinced that the sentries are the problem and not the Ishtar, this has me wondering.

What other sentry platform is overpowered?
The Dominix? The reason we use it is because it requires far fewer fitting skills than virtually any other battleship doctrine. You want to fix that hull, you reduce its CPU and PG.
The Eos? MAYBE. It's pretty balanced though, mostly due to the fact that it has much higher training requirements than the Ishtar, and its much more limited mobility in comparison. If you nerf the Ishtar this might emerge as the next favored ship, but it probably wouldn't.
The Armageddon? Nah, it's just fine. If anything it could use a bit of a boost.
The Nestor? No, that ship is a joke. Sentries don't really make it any better.
The Rattlesnake? It's a pretty powerful ship, but it's pretty on par with the rest of the pirate battleships. If anything it needs a bit of a boost.
The Stratios? Pretty balanced. It sees less PVP use than other pirate cruisers, but it has a decent amount of exploration utility.
The Vexor/VNI? Powerful as far as T1 or Navy faction cruisers go, but still fairly balanced. As a gank boat the Vexor sees some utility, but otherwise its use is pretty even with other cruisers.
Carriers? You can nerf sentries into the ground, it really isn't going to make much of a difference to how much these get used.

The only problem is the Ishtar. The only nerf that needs to happen is to the Ishtar. Sentries themselves are fine.


You had me up intil you said the Rattlesnake needs a boost. You wot m8?

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#468 - 2015-05-26 23:46:53 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Trinkets friend wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


The main goals of these changes are to further improve the intra-class balance between sentry drones (smoothing out the progression in tracking speed and compressing the damage spread a bit) and slightly reducing the power level of some sentry fits and doctrines, especially for Bouncers and Curators that are quite dominant in a few areas.

Current plan is:
Gardes: -25% Optimal, +66.7% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking
Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking
Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking

We welcome feedback as always!


We use Bouncers in our ratting C4 doctrine with Cruise Typhoons as they can project damage plenty fine. might have to switch to Wardens. /wrists I suppose

+1 for nerfing tracking n these things finally

Went out to nullsec in a Garmur, tackled two ratting ishtars who were using Curator II's. I was kiting them at 30km @ 4.4km/s and they were hitting me just fine.

The problem is NOT the drones, although the tracking nerfs above will certainly help, it is the doctrines. And you know what maketh the doctrines people are using? That's right, the drone tracking modules and damage modules and control range modules you put in the game.

Adjust them a bit as well. Because if you can't even kite a sentry ishtar at 25km in the game's most ridiculous frigate, something's a bit stupid.


I am just curious, were these two Ishtars sitting side-by-side? Were they stationary? Were they right next to their sentry drones? Because if they were at all sensible, they would have burned away from the sentry drones a fair distance, which would significantly lower your transversal vis-a-vis the sentry drones.


Nope. Sitting at zero right next to each other right on top of their sentries. Like i said, the moment you can pile two types of tracking enhancer, damage enhancer, range enhancer onto a ship (and a modicum of tank, RR mebbe), you turn a reasonable proposition into an edge case where the parameters begin to get out of whack.

I mean, this was just sentries. Heaven forfend they actually dropped warriors and did 338 DPS each.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#469 - 2015-05-27 02:53:40 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Since CCP is so convinced that the sentries are the problem and not the Ishtar, this has me wondering.

What other sentry platform is overpowered?
The Dominix? The reason we use it is because it requires far fewer fitting skills than virtually any other battleship doctrine. You want to fix that hull, you reduce its CPU and PG.
The Eos? MAYBE. It's pretty balanced though, mostly due to the fact that it has much higher training requirements than the Ishtar, and its much more limited mobility in comparison. If you nerf the Ishtar this might emerge as the next favored ship, but it probably wouldn't.
The Armageddon? Nah, it's just fine. If anything it could use a bit of a boost.
The Nestor? No, that ship is a joke. Sentries don't really make it any better.
The Rattlesnake? It's a pretty powerful ship, but it's pretty on par with the rest of the pirate battleships. If anything it needs a bit of a boost.
The Stratios? Pretty balanced. It sees less PVP use than other pirate cruisers, but it has a decent amount of exploration utility.
The Vexor/VNI? Powerful as far as T1 or Navy faction cruisers go, but still fairly balanced. As a gank boat the Vexor sees some utility, but otherwise its use is pretty even with other cruisers.
Carriers? You can nerf sentries into the ground, it really isn't going to make much of a difference to how much these get used.

The only problem is the Ishtar. The only nerf that needs to happen is to the Ishtar. Sentries themselves are fine.


You had me up intil you said the Rattlesnake needs a boost. You wot m8?


none of those ships need s a boost, the nestor has OP repping bonus along with the Ship hangar, rattlesnake 2k+ dps is OP, vexor line needs a dps nerf, geddon should lose a few highs and 25mb and some dronebay aswell.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Tessen
Stellar Tide
#470 - 2015-05-27 03:19:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Tessen
1. Dont nerf Garde Range : current is short enough for à static trackingless heavy weapon.

2. Dont nerf other sentries

3. Add new "Light Sentry Drones" and "Medium Sentry Drones" in game. Keep curent sentries and rename "Heavy Sentry Drone".

4. Change drone boats doctrine. About bandwith : Frigate size ship = 25 Mbits max, light drone bonus only, Cruiser size ship (Including Ishtar) = 50 Mbits max, med drone bonus only, BS size ship = 125 Mbits max, heavy drone bonus only. A non drone boad may have less bandwith.

5. Change drone boad doctrine. About drone bay volume : a non drone boat always have a tiny drone bay ; a drone boat always can have a minimal of 3 sets of drones according to his size in his drone bay (75m3 drone bay for a frigate size drone boad, 150m3 for a cruiser size drone boad and 375m3 for a BS size drone boat).


Bonus. Boost skills giving drone control range or add a new one that only apply on drone boats.

Edit. Each drone boat should have minimal standard armament (turret or launcher) with no bonus.
Frigate : 3 S size mounts + 1 utility
Destroyer : 4 S size mounts + 1 utility
Cruiser : 4 M size mounts + 2 utilities
BC : 5 M size mounts + 2 utilities
BS : 5 L size mounts + 3 utilities
Quesa
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#471 - 2015-05-27 05:43:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Quesa
I like where this is going. It hits tracking, which is, IMO, the major issue with the weapon platform since they don't appear to be hit with half of the transversal calculations...since they are immobile. It's certainly ok that this isn't a big hit because, as others have stated, nerfing sentries themselves will hit the non-double-bonsed hulls will not find Sentry drones viable for use. With this change, they appear to be a viable platform but may not be the DOMINANT platform, which is good.

After these changes go through, they can then tweak the double-bonused hulls.
Aplysia Vejun
Children of Agasul
#472 - 2015-05-27 05:59:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Aplysia Vejun
Trinkets friend wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Trinkets friend wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


The main goals of these changes are to further improve the intra-class balance between sentry drones (smoothing out the progression in tracking speed and compressing the damage spread a bit) and slightly reducing the power level of some sentry fits and doctrines, especially for Bouncers and Curators that are quite dominant in a few areas.

Current plan is:
Gardes: -25% Optimal, +66.7% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking
Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking
Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking

We welcome feedback as always!


We use Bouncers in our ratting C4 doctrine with Cruise Typhoons as they can project damage plenty fine. might have to switch to Wardens. /wrists I suppose

+1 for nerfing tracking n these things finally

Went out to nullsec in a Garmur, tackled two ratting ishtars who were using Curator II's. I was kiting them at 30km @ 4.4km/s and they were hitting me just fine.

The problem is NOT the drones, although the tracking nerfs above will certainly help, it is the doctrines. And you know what maketh the doctrines people are using? That's right, the drone tracking modules and damage modules and control range modules you put in the game.

Adjust them a bit as well. Because if you can't even kite a sentry ishtar at 25km in the game's most ridiculous frigate, something's a bit stupid.


I am just curious, were these two Ishtars sitting side-by-side? Were they stationary? Were they right next to their sentry drones? Because if they were at all sensible, they would have burned away from the sentry drones a fair distance, which would significantly lower your transversal vis-a-vis the sentry drones.


Nope. Sitting at zero right next to each other right on top of their sentries. Like i said, the moment you can pile two types of tracking enhancer, damage enhancer, range enhancer onto a ship (and a modicum of tank, RR mebbe), you turn a reasonable proposition into an edge case where the parameters begin to get out of whack.

I mean, this was just sentries. Heaven forfend they actually dropped warriors and did 338 DPS each.



Let us see:
Your turning rate in rad:
2×3.14 /(30km×2×3.14/4.4kmper sec)=about 0.146 rad per second
Curator turning rate per second without tracking enhancers= 0.024
You are turning abot 6 time faster than the turning rate of the curators. No, they wont hit you!
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#473 - 2015-05-27 06:51:07 UTC
Aplysia Vejun wrote:
Trinkets friend wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Trinkets friend wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


The main goals of these changes are to further improve the intra-class balance between sentry drones (smoothing out the progression in tracking speed and compressing the damage spread a bit) and slightly reducing the power level of some sentry fits and doctrines, especially for Bouncers and Curators that are quite dominant in a few areas.

Current plan is:
Gardes: -25% Optimal, +66.7% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking
Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking
Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking

We welcome feedback as always!


We use Bouncers in our ratting C4 doctrine with Cruise Typhoons as they can project damage plenty fine. might have to switch to Wardens. /wrists I suppose

+1 for nerfing tracking n these things finally

Went out to nullsec in a Garmur, tackled two ratting ishtars who were using Curator II's. I was kiting them at 30km @ 4.4km/s and they were hitting me just fine.

The problem is NOT the drones, although the tracking nerfs above will certainly help, it is the doctrines. And you know what maketh the doctrines people are using? That's right, the drone tracking modules and damage modules and control range modules you put in the game.

Adjust them a bit as well. Because if you can't even kite a sentry ishtar at 25km in the game's most ridiculous frigate, something's a bit stupid.


I am just curious, were these two Ishtars sitting side-by-side? Were they stationary? Were they right next to their sentry drones? Because if they were at all sensible, they would have burned away from the sentry drones a fair distance, which would significantly lower your transversal vis-a-vis the sentry drones.


Nope. Sitting at zero right next to each other right on top of their sentries. Like i said, the moment you can pile two types of tracking enhancer, damage enhancer, range enhancer onto a ship (and a modicum of tank, RR mebbe), you turn a reasonable proposition into an edge case where the parameters begin to get out of whack.

I mean, this was just sentries. Heaven forfend they actually dropped warriors and did 338 DPS each.



Let us see:
Your turning rate in rad:
2×3.14 /(30km×2×3.14/4.4kmper sec)=about 0.146 rad per second
Curator turning rate per second without tracking enhancers= 0.024
You are turning abot 6 time faster than the turning rate of the curators. No, they wont hit you!



You've never seen ishtars fight in PvP, have you? Hint: they diverge from the drones to allow them to hit.
Aplysia Vejun
Children of Agasul
#474 - 2015-05-27 07:09:43 UTC
Sure. But he said they were not moving at all and staying near their sentries.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#475 - 2015-05-27 07:26:15 UTC
What happens with TE? Betcha at those ranges they can graze. EFT will show it (if they ever fixed drone tracking math).
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#476 - 2015-05-27 09:09:46 UTC
What's wrong with drone tracking math?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#477 - 2015-05-27 09:13:12 UTC
afkalt wrote:
What happens with TE? Betcha at those ranges they can graze. EFT will show it (if they ever fixed drone tracking math).


This is my bet, that two Ishtars (10 Curator II's) scripted for tracking, were still getting some hits on him. Not sure whether that is a problem or not, especially if he was using orbit at 30km.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#478 - 2015-05-27 10:07:53 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
What's wrong with drone tracking math?



EFT used to ignore it when mobile drones were used, you could tell because if drone control range was > weapon range there was just a flat line that never changed no matter what the target did. I've never looked at at sentries in depth, I don't know if those are modelled correctly.

I assume mobile drones are assumed to be static damage because drone movement itself is not modelled and is independent from the ship movement which drives other weapon calculations.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#479 - 2015-05-27 10:17:39 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
afkalt wrote:
What happens with TE? Betcha at those ranges they can graze. EFT will show it (if they ever fixed drone tracking math).


This is my bet, that two Ishtars (10 Curator II's) scripted for tracking, were still getting some hits on him. Not sure whether that is a problem or not, especially if he was using orbit at 30km.


Yes, plus sentries drop 2-3 km away from each other at points, all it takes is a slightly uneven orbit (unavoidable because it isn't a single drone) and they'll nick you. EM sentries at a shield ship with low hp are gonna hurt.
Jacid
The Upside Down
#480 - 2015-05-27 10:40:35 UTC
Don't:

Nerf sentries
Nerf Ishtars or Domis

Do:

Have defender missiles target drones in order of threat Sentries>Heavies>medium>Lights

You could adjust the explosive velocity so that heavy defenders would be do lots of damage to sentries but less so to moving drones.

The ishtars could of course defend their sentries via firewall but then they wouldn't be able to be mobile and that would remove a lot of the benefit of flying an ishtar in the first place. Makes a more dynamic combat for eve and finally makes defender missiles useful.

/Thread