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[Carnyx] Sentry Drone Adjustments

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Gauro Charante
Vile Duck Pond
#441 - 2015-05-26 09:31:02 UTC
Been reading these forums alot about them drones. I'm a drone user so it's nice to know whats going on with them.

These changes wont really bother me, the way i use them they are still waaayy too good (imho).
Here are some ideas I've seen and tought about:

1. Just drop that HUGE hp pool those sentrys have. Why do they have that much HP? 30-50% less HP staight off might give them big fights a scare when sentrys cracks like eggs around them. For PvE that HP is useless anyways couse I have never seen NPC to get a good shot at them when I sit 50+km from the enemy with my drones

2. Give Heavys a good boost in HP and drop that Bandwith to 20. 10-20% more hp and they could take a beating and even maybe scary for some.

3. Cruisers can't get more than 100 MB bandwith, thus dropping those 5 sentry boats from the pic but 5 heavys are still in use.
Also many other ships bandwith prolly would have to change acordingly.
Aplysia Vejun
Children of Agasul
#442 - 2015-05-26 11:03:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Aplysia Vejun
Double Post, sry
Aplysia Vejun
Children of Agasul
#443 - 2015-05-26 11:08:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Aplysia Vejun
@ gauro
1) there are man situations in pve where even the navy sentries cannot hold the aggro longer than 10sec. For example blond Rainer de 6/10 or 'besiged ....' sites.
I'm not telling the HPs don't deserve a reduction. Just: the hps are useful in pve.
3) this already happened with the last dmg-reduction.
DEFANDER
CSV - Like in politics - rules apply differently
#444 - 2015-05-26 13:29:18 UTC
I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with.

And i agree, there are "other forces" at work here. Pulling the rains.
Casivek Andrard
True Drone Expanse
What Could Possibly Go Wr0ng
#445 - 2015-05-26 14:51:33 UTC
DEFANDER wrote:
I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with.

And i agree, there are "other forces" at work here. Pulling the rains.


If by other forces you mean the null bears crying at ccp to not balance the ship as they are a bunch of lazy f1 monkeys then sure you are right
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#446 - 2015-05-26 15:06:36 UTC
DEFANDER wrote:
I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with.

We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. Smile

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#447 - 2015-05-26 15:23:38 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
CCP Fozzie wrote:
DEFANDER wrote:
I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with.

We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. Smile


Well, then, we look forward to more substantive responses!

It is good to see you are still following the threads. Shame that it takes a snarky post to get you to reveal your presence.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#448 - 2015-05-26 15:41:15 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
DEFANDER wrote:
I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with.

We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. Smile


Well, then, we look forward to more substantive responses!

It is good to see you are still following the threads. Shame that it takes a snarky post to get you to reveal your presence.


That's because too many people take for granted that no post = no reading at all. That's the sad part about this forum section.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#449 - 2015-05-26 15:43:37 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
DEFANDER wrote:
I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with.

We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. Smile

I think the whole forum would like an answer to one question.

What are sentries balanced against?

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#450 - 2015-05-26 15:52:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
James Baboli wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
DEFANDER wrote:
I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with.

We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. Smile

I think the whole forum would like an answer to one question.

What are sentries balanced against?


Maybe we would understand what they are trying to achieve if we knew where they think they should be balance wise...

EDIT: It's a Pandora box if they open it tho. Most game devs who ever make point like that turns out hating them self for it later on...
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#451 - 2015-05-26 16:08:00 UTC
Nasar Vyron wrote:
Terra Chrall wrote:
I see this as interesting, with some potential, though I disagree on 2 suggestions.

1) The drone bay. No reason not to leave it capable of 3 sets of the Heavy/Sentry. 225m3, keeps the choices and spares.
2) Control range. No need to change. If a ship opts to use sentries for long range sniping they will be out of rail range and lose that DPS. If they opt to stay in rail range, control range does not matter.

Plus as far as I can tell, Drone Control Range is a pilot stat not drone. So this would have to be reworked to accomplish your ends and it is an unnecessary addition of complexity to start with.


Thanks a lot for taking the time to grab the actual numbers. I was running numbers on paper so had a few numbers off actually with my math. I would agree with your suggestion of increasing the drone bay to 225, I was honestly thinking 2 flights plus back up. But you make a very good point of why 3 flights should be allowed. As for your second point, I can see the problem here. I could have sworn they reached out further, so maybe a larger optimal range bonus in in order.

I also agree it does do a number on the train time to get to perfect operation. However, the increased training should pay off in spades for those who can fly it optimally, while not being overbearingly so as medium weapon systems are not horribly long train times.



As for the control range currently you are 100% correct, control range is currently decided by the drone's base range+skills to decide how far out from you/your drones is to it's intended target you can issue orders to attack. I effectually want that aspect removed from sentries such that sentries have a set targeting range (their optimal+falloff) and their control range be based on possibly the sentry skill itself, something along the lines of 4km per level. Numbers of course being debatable.

And to reiterate, this doesn't effect their current functionality in the slightest to ECM/damps since to issue the attack command the pilot must still have the target lock, all that changes is their leash range to the sentries.



My beef with control range limits is for everyone that does not use it in an abusive way. When I would run missions in my Dominix I would snipe from 100+ KM; with my imperfect skills I would have to use 3-4 DLAs and a SeBo with range script. Ishtar pilots basically get 1 free DLA which allows them to engage drones from a reasonable base distance for the design of the hull.

Control range only helps engage a target, it does not help hit or apply the damage, it simply allows the pilot to say shoot and the drone shoots. The drone is still limited by its optimal/falloff and tracking like any other weapon, if the target is out of the drones range the drone will miss 100% regardless of the control range. So other than certain kiting tactics, I don't see control range as a real problem. And I don't think a system should be balanced around one line of tactics, unless it is clearly exploitable.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#452 - 2015-05-26 16:19:15 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
DEFANDER wrote:
I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with.

We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. Smile

I think the whole forum would like an answer to one question.

What are sentries balanced against?


Maybe we would understand what they are trying to achieve if we knew where they think they should be balance wise...

EDIT: It's a Pandora box if they open it tho. Most game devs who ever make point like that turns out hating them self for it later on...

Heck, all they need to do is say they are a long range or short range or mid range weapon in the small, medium or large class, and then the inherent range between all of those things (and the extreme range of power for them in most cases) makes it easy to argue they are or aren't balanced either way, as stuff is going to be on either side of it, almost regardless of which class they put it in.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#453 - 2015-05-26 16:20:41 UTC
I still think the best way to fix / solve the problem with sentry on cruisers is to branch out to 3 sizes of sentry.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#454 - 2015-05-26 16:42:29 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:
I still think the best way to fix / solve the problem with sentry on cruisers is to branch out to 3 sizes of sentry.
I'd be happy with 2 sizes. Frigates and destroyers normally engage from a range where small/med drone speeds are sufficient and mobility is preferred.

I'd hate for them to create another class of drones that was seldom used. But perhaps they would be used more than I think once available and people go and get creative with their tactics.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#455 - 2015-05-26 16:44:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Terra Chrall
James Baboli wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
DEFANDER wrote:
I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with.

We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. Smile

I think the whole forum would like an answer to one question.

What are sentries balanced against?


Maybe we would understand what they are trying to achieve if we knew where they think they should be balance wise...

EDIT: It's a Pandora box if they open it tho. Most game devs who ever make point like that turns out hating them self for it later on...

Heck, all they need to do is say they are a long range or short range or mid range weapon in the small, medium or large class, and then the inherent range between all of those things (and the extreme range of power for them in most cases) makes it easy to argue they are or aren't balanced either way, as stuff is going to be on either side of it, almost regardless of which class they put it in.

I think the issue is that they don't compare, they are unique. So fueling our need to compare them to other systems would not be in their interests.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#456 - 2015-05-26 17:09:37 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
DEFANDER wrote:
I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with.

We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. Smile

I think the whole forum would like an answer to one question.

What are sentries balanced against?


Maybe we would understand what they are trying to achieve if we knew where they think they should be balance wise...

EDIT: It's a Pandora box if they open it tho. Most game devs who ever make point like that turns out hating them self for it later on...

Heck, all they need to do is say they are a long range or short range or mid range weapon in the small, medium or large class, and then the inherent range between all of those things (and the extreme range of power for them in most cases) makes it easy to argue they are or aren't balanced either way, as stuff is going to be on either side of it, almost regardless of which class they put it in.


Where would you slot a weapon that while in space can "refit" from short range good tracking to long range bad tracking? It's like sporting pulse and rails on the same boat or something akin to that.

A blaster boat can maybe double it's range by swapping ammo. I'm pretty sure a sentry setup can make a greater jump than that but at the same time, it's "ammo" can be shot down.

All of that lead to a position where they are pretty much unique and not fitting into any well defined box.
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#457 - 2015-05-26 18:10:29 UTC
Terra Chrall wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
I still think the best way to fix / solve the problem with sentry on cruisers is to branch out to 3 sizes of sentry.
I'd be happy with 2 sizes. Frigates and destroyers normally engage from a range where small/med drone speeds are sufficient and mobility is preferred.

I'd hate for them to create another class of drones that was seldom used. But perhaps they would be used more than I think once available and people go and get creative with their tactics.


I would think an Ishkur fleet set up at a gate with small sentry drones would be a pretty daunting thing
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#458 - 2015-05-26 18:33:03 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:
Terra Chrall wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
I still think the best way to fix / solve the problem with sentry on cruisers is to branch out to 3 sizes of sentry.
I'd be happy with 2 sizes. Frigates and destroyers normally engage from a range where small/med drone speeds are sufficient and mobility is preferred.

I'd hate for them to create another class of drones that was seldom used. But perhaps they would be used more than I think once available and people go and get creative with their tactics.


I would think an Ishkur fleet set up at a gate with small sentry drones would be a pretty daunting thing


There isn't much point to use a lower dps immobile drone when the mobile ones are as fast as lights...
Therisa Workroun
Doomheim
#459 - 2015-05-26 18:56:31 UTC
My prefered option would have been to limit 'assigned drone' controls based on a new skillbook, that way Fleet Commanders would have to invest points into assigned drone control, but would still face an upper limit to the number of drones they could control.

If you can field 40 fleet members, that would be 200 maximum drones (400 maximum fighters / drones if supercapital fleet).

If you could only train to a maximum of 75 assigned drones, the number of fleet members cannot be the same, or there need to be multiple 'drone commanders' each with max skills, that could also be more easily jammed as Sensor boosting would need to be spread more evenly between the drone commanders than just making one imba sebo remsebo ship that has a million dps with everyone's drones.

Ofcourse, the way this would affect a lag free voice comms fleet is rather limited, perhaps a solution involving fleet members diminishing bandwidth to stay in fleet?
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#460 - 2015-05-26 18:58:16 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
DEFANDER wrote:
I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with.

We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. Smile

I think the whole forum would like an answer to one question.

What are sentries balanced against?


Maybe we would understand what they are trying to achieve if we knew where they think they should be balance wise...

EDIT: It's a Pandora box if they open it tho. Most game devs who ever make point like that turns out hating them self for it later on...

Obfuscation is a powerful ally when dealing with group of angry people.