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[Updated] [June] Module Tiericide - Armor Plates and Shield Extenders

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Author
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#121 - 2015-05-23 15:02:49 UTC
+1 for hard nerf to meta 4 and stealth increase to drawbacks for these mods. Should hurt cruisers for oversizing a little more.

Question: why are the meta mods still better than t1 in MULTIPLE aspects? I thought the concept of new meta 1 is better than t1 in only ONE aspect.
HeXxploiT
Doomheim
#122 - 2015-05-23 23:25:03 UTC
T1 modules are the most basic & common module aside from noob mods. Not sure why a handful of people still don't get this.
This is why T1 can be built from bpo's. Think of the rest as specialized.
Count Szadek
Unbound Reborn
WE FORM BL0B University
#123 - 2015-05-24 00:35:38 UTC
I would really like to see an XL Shield Extender for battleship usage.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#124 - 2015-05-24 00:46:24 UTC
Were the small shield extenders getting that big buff in HP in the original proposal or did I miss it in the change?
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#125 - 2015-05-24 01:27:10 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Were the small shield extenders getting that big buff in HP in the original proposal or did I miss it in the change?

it was in the original OP, for them removing micros.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Valterra Craven
#126 - 2015-05-24 02:14:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
James Baboli wrote:


The same thing I said earlier about m4 vs t2 being out of whack due to the game having gotten bigger in some ways and incentives shifting significantly apply to this for certain. I think it is because LP has gotten cheaper, but tags have dried up and much more people are able to rat faster and this has flooded the market with the pirate faction items which drop medium frequently, and thus the supply and costs are out of whack from when the modules were concieved and released, making the costs make little sense. Then again, I know many people willing to pay extra for certain faction modules, even for ones which are worse in every way, because of which faction they like or RP as.


And you'd be wrong, plain and simple. Do some market research on the prices of goods as far back as the eve market websites will allow. Prices have stayed remarkably stable for such long time periods.

Take the EM ward field example:
http://eve-marketdata.com/price_check.php?type_name_header=Dread+Guristas+EM+Ward+Field

This mod has seen some fluctuation, and thats likely due more to market forces (speculation etc) than it has anything to do with people being able to acquire them easier or faster. but the prices seem on par for the value they offer and the rate at which they drop. Nothing from the market data suggests that m4 t2 and faction are out of whack in this regard.

Sisters Probes are also a good example to compare for people being able to run "missions faster" as everyone likes to argue:
http://eve-marketdata.com/price_check.php?type_name_header=Sisters+Core+Scanner+Probe

Again, the data just doesn't back this theory up.
Prices really only ever change when CCP has made critically good/bad balancing decisions or messed with entire systems, like mineral rebalances etc.
Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#127 - 2015-05-24 04:02:58 UTC
HeXxploiT wrote:
T1 modules are the most basic & common module aside from noob mods. Not sure why a handful of people still don't get this.
This is why T1 can be built from bpo's. Think of the rest as specialized.


Right now T1 is specialized in being bad. Really. At this point if you're not a day one player, and even if you are, most won't fit a T1 because they are so much worse. For the redemption roams NPSI community new player roams we use almost all meta module because they are cheaper and better in almost every single conceivable way.

In this listing so far every single t1 module has about 20% less of the primary stat than the its closest meta module. Combined that with the worst case fitting and other penalties and there is zero reason to fit it unless you have literally nothing else. Might as well just make t1 officially called civilian gear if you want to leave them like that.

And why is basic and common a bad thing? Why shouldn't the modules you build in your station at home not be competitive in the game?
To mare
Advanced Technology
#128 - 2015-05-24 10:07:35 UTC
Count Szadek wrote:
I would really like to see an XL Shield Extender for battleship usage.

1- no because armor and shield need some diversity
2- no because people will fit them to cruisers
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#129 - 2015-05-24 11:25:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
To mare wrote:
Count Szadek wrote:
I would really like to see an XL Shield Extender for battleship usage.

1- no because armor and shield need some diversity
2- no because people will fit them to cruisers


What do you mean with diversity? Neither Armor nor Shields got access to BS-sized buffer mods. The 1600 plate is a cruisersized mod, or Battlecruiser at max. But 500PG is not *allocating relevant fitting ressources* for any battleship.

Then in Cruisers Online, you can triple your armor buffer with an appropriately sized buffer mod (1600, cause they're so easy to fit you might think they belong there). A Rattlesnake can raise it's buffer by ~20% for each LSE it fits.

And in particular, if fittings weren't an issue, we'd see more officer point orthrus, I'm sure. But heck, a cruiser just doesn't have the 2-4k PG a BS plate would potentially require.

Onslaughtor wrote:
Right now T1 is specialized in being bad. Really. At this point if you're not a day one player, and even if you are, most won't fit a T1 because they are so much worse. For the redemption roams NPSI community new player roams we use almost all meta module because they are cheaper and better in almost every single conceivable way.


There is truth in there :D I'd too love to see the gap from plain T1 to T2 being reduced or otherwise make T1 more meaningful. Currently it's the stuff you got in your hangar to build it into T2 things, it would however be nice if T1 could incorporate some sort of appeal to not totally disqualify it. This could be as simple as labeling the tech level *pragmatic, non-sophisticated and robust* and give it much resilence to overheating. (This would allow newbros with Thermo I to effectively use their T1 point overheated for longer times to pretend they'd be using the T2 one)
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#130 - 2015-05-24 12:29:55 UTC
HeXxploiT wrote:
T1 modules are the most basic & common module aside from noob mods. Not sure why a handful of people still don't get this.
This is why T1 can be built from bpo's. Think of the rest as specialized.

They are supposed to be better than T1 in only ONE stat.
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#131 - 2015-05-24 13:12:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
HeXxploiT wrote:
T1 modules are the most basic & common module aside from noob mods. Not sure why a handful of people still don't get this.
This is why T1 can be built from bpo's. Think of the rest as specialized.



they want to build off the t1's for cheap fun.

Or they like simple T1 then t2. This change needs a spreadsheet to work out the details. this imo was the start of this whole metacide thing. Looking up stuff and thinking gave headaches lol.

Now this change tbh...has me liking metacide more (will not lie about or hide the fact I was not in we don't need this metacide crowd). I am liking faction mods actually mean something now. For SE for example I always felt bad for the thukker lp collectors. Now that SE is looking nice. Or at least marketable over RF whose lp easier to obtain with better agent distribution.
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#132 - 2015-05-24 13:18:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
HeXxploiT wrote:
T1 modules are the most basic & common module aside from noob mods. Not sure why a handful of people still don't get this.
This is why T1 can be built from bpo's. Think of the rest as specialized.

They are supposed to be better than T1 in only ONE stat.



Get used to this....ccp did this with the easy low hanging fruit items (ie. not to common and niche items so less polarization in the player base) early where there was 1 one stat to make this easy to do. CCP with this is starting to hit the more complicated mods where this won't be applicable so readily. If applicable at all.


My sympathies go out to the shield booster and armor rep team. What I consider a defining stat for them to work from will not be the same as lots of others players. Other players whose choice will vary from even more other players as well.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2015-05-24 13:40:18 UTC
I don't like that meta eclipses T1, but if meta blueprints start to drop that require the base T1 module rather than assembled modules, I could support the power increase.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#134 - 2015-05-24 15:18:17 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
IM/FN 800mm/1600mm Plate & RF LSE/MSE real costs for anyone interested: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5769020#post5769020

Smile

CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
The stats sheets have been updated with some changes we will make in light of feedback.

Change Sheets - Updated 22-05-15

Armor Plates Module Tiericide

In summary, on reflection the Tech II armor plates have had their HP values maintained as at current TQ numbers; the Storyline plates have been adjusted as a group to have low fitting requirements but with less HP bonus than in the original proposed changes.


THANK YOU!

'Barbican' Impel not gone after all. Cool
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#135 - 2015-05-25 01:21:19 UTC
HeXxploiT wrote:
T1 modules are the most basic & common module aside from noob mods. Not sure why a handful of people still don't get this.
This is why T1 can be built from bpo's. Think of the rest as specialized.

An example I posted in another thread of 'mystery item x'
T1, 5% 5% 5% 5%
Meta 7% 7% 4% 4%
T2 7% 7% 7% 7%

T2 is still clearly better than T1, but meta is as good as T2 in certain aspects but worse than T1 in other aspects, forcing you to make a trade off with Meta, and making a case where you would use T1 over Meta when you are concerned with overall performance of a single module.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#136 - 2015-05-25 02:40:57 UTC
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
The stats sheets have been updated with some changes we will make in light of feedback.

Change Sheets - Updated 22-05-15

Armor Plates Module Tiericide

Shield Extender Module Tiericide

In summary, on reflection the Tech II armor plates have had their HP values maintained as at current TQ numbers; the Storyline plates have been adjusted as a group to have low fitting requirements but with less HP bonus than in the original proposed changes; the Syndicate faction plates have had a significant powergrid requirement cut in order to further differentiate them and hopefully make them an attractive option for some uses.

Minor adjustment to Storyline shield extenders to emphasize the lower fitting aspect of the modules is also included.

Hopefully this addresses the bulk of the concerns. We've listened to all the feedback but don't necessarily agree with all of it. I want to also note that these changes are taking place as part of the module tiericide effort and don't represent the last word in balance of these module groups.



Looked solely at the 1600mm plates for the present, so my feedback is restricted to them. I'm not familiar enough with shields to have a useful opinion on those changes.

Firstly there is no reason to ever consider fitting a Meta 0 plate to a ship; meta 1 options are generally better in every stat AND are cheaper. This appears to be a consistent design decision you're making with every part of Tiericide, and I don't agree with it. It renders the meta 0 item useless except as a precursor to producing the T2 version.

It's possible for post-Tiericide Meta 1 plates to be generally superior to Meta 0 without being strictly better in every stat.

Secondly, the faction plates all have clear things that distinguish them from the other meta 8 options, and are all solid. I could see myself considering all three on a fit. One will undoubtedly become 'the best overall' but all will remain viable options. Well done.

However, this poses the question - when deadspace plates are introduced (which I assume they will be in the future), what are your plans for them?

I think you should add to the table preliminary stats for deadspace plates, even if you have no intention of adding them to this release.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Perihelion Olenard
#137 - 2015-05-25 07:17:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
It is nice that people who want to use something better than tech 2 plates now have options for getting more EHP. I don't mind losing some powergrid requirements for higher CPU requirements, although it is small. All my Gallente ships are powergrid limited, not CPU limited.
Eli Porter
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#138 - 2015-05-25 07:30:41 UTC
What's the point in lowering PG cost while increasing CPU cost at about the same level for T2 plates? It doesn't seem to serve any purpose outside of annoying EFT warriors.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#139 - 2015-05-25 07:42:24 UTC
Stratios got massively buffed by the plate changes. Stratios has 1150 PG, which currently lets you fit two 1600mm plates and a MWD, but nothing else, so 2x 1600mm plate fits aren't viable unless you want to use Genolutions, storyline MWD, or storyline 1600mm plates, all of which are obscenely expensive.

After these changes, you can just fit two Syndicate plates which actually have more HP than T2 plates do now, and won't be that expensive. (27000 LP and no tags) The result is a ship that can fit an expanded probe launcher and a cloak and still do 500-600 DPS of whatever damage type it wants alongside having ~70,000 EHP. Use a reactive armor hardener when hunting ratters (they do the same damage type as the rats) and your EHP will be much higher. Even though you'll be relatively slow when double plated, it's still rather difficult to catch a ship with a covops cloak and a MWD.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#140 - 2015-05-25 07:53:43 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Stratios got massively buffed by the plate changes. Stratios has 1150 PG, which currently lets you fit two 1600mm plates and a MWD, but nothing else, so 2x 1600mm plate fits aren't viable unless you want to use Genolutions, storyline MWD, or storyline 1600mm plates, all of which are obscenely expensive.

After these changes, you can just fit two Syndicate plates which actually have more HP than T2 plates do now, and won't be that expensive. (27000 LP and no tags) The result is a ship that can fit an expanded probe launcher and a cloak and still do 500-600 DPS of whatever damage type it wants alongside having ~70,000 EHP. Use a reactive armor hardener when hunting ratters (they do the same damage type as the rats) and your EHP will be much higher. Even though you'll be relatively slow when double plated, it's still rather difficult to catch a ship with a covops cloak and a MWD.

Sounds reasonable to me.

I like the Stratios :)

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.