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[Carnyx] Sentry Drone Adjustments

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Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#381 - 2015-05-23 23:51:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Terra Chrall
Sniper Smith wrote:

...Also you still need to be in range to use missiles, given this is a Cruiser, we need do compare it vs Heavy/Heavy Assault missiles, and in both cases the control range alone on a hull like the Ishtar blows away the ranges a missile cruiser can put down....


Might want to check your facts. The missile HAC, the Cerberus has a longer base targeting range than the Ishtar and can shoot Faction /T1 missiles to 141km before any rigs and T2 Fury to 106km. It is not the Ishtar's fault that Heavy Missiles are what they are.
James Zimmer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#382 - 2015-05-24 06:25:31 UTC
Sniper Smith wrote:
Personally I don't see the Vexor or Domi as OP.. The Ishtar is. It's in essence a Domi DPS and Projection, in a Vexor sized ship, with T2 Tank, oh and a massive range bonus so it can control drones from almost anywhere on the grid depending on the setup. It's insane. At least the other ships have compamises.. a Vexor wields weaker drones, a Domi is a slow space potato, but the Ishtar is all pro's no con's.. And rather than address it, you decide to make EVERY Ship that can field a flight of Sentries, bonused or otherwise, suffer. The only other hull that you can argue Sentries are OP on is the Domi, so lets ignore that. Name one other hull that needs them nerfed or where they will be more balanced with a loss of DPS and projection? Armageddon? Nope. Rattlesnake? Nope. Stratios, Nestor, Hyperion, Mach's, and every other BS that has 100+mb bandwidth.. NOPE.

Address the actual issue, don't punish everything else because you don't want to deal with the Ishtar. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, what you're doing is Nerfing Web's because of Vindi's, Neuts because of Bhaalgorns.. You're nerfing the weapon system to bring a Bonused hull in Line. It's backwards. You dialback the Bonus.. Then, and ONLY Then, if the weapons are the issue, do you look at changing the weapon.

All this change does is mean the ONLY Viable Sentry Boats are Ishtars and Domi's. Without the bonuses, they are crap. Oh, and they will still be just as widely used because you can still drop them from an Ishtar, Kite away 100+km, and keep killing stuff. Congrats.


While I may disagree that the other Gallente drone boats are balanced, I do agree with the idea with nerfing the problem ship rather than the drones. I've only fought Ishtars once or twice, and in those cases, they were playing station games, so we baited and blobbed them. Their advantages couldn't really help them. I just know that when I finally train to sentries, I want them to be a valid weapon.
James Zimmer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#383 - 2015-05-24 06:56:38 UTC  |  Edited by: James Zimmer
Harvey James wrote:
@ james zimmer

that neatly fits in with my sig of -3 slots for ALL droneboats, this should include gurista ships the dps on those ships is absurd

i tried too quote your post but the site won't let me do quotes atm for some reason, i keep getting server something ..... don't know if other people are having this issue, never used too happen..


I agree that drone boats need to have a significant penalty for being drone boats, and # of slots is a valid option, but I don't think it's the only valid option. An Arbitrator is nothing to scoff at, but with 225 PG less than a Vexor and a garbage high slot weapon configuration, it is somewhat predictable and there are valid strategies against it other than bringing a more expensive ship. I don't have too much of a problem with drone boats having the highest potential damage output, just whatever ship gets that title, it needs to be a bit of a one trick pony.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#384 - 2015-05-24 11:06:58 UTC
I agree with the next tweak downwards for sentries, however: *How dare you touch my ISK/hr*
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#385 - 2015-05-24 14:00:58 UTC
pure blasterboats should have the highest dps since the tradeoff is tiny range and uses cap too and needs tackle too be effective, droneboats ought too have lower dps in general as the tradeoffs are only destructable dps and that often isn't a viable tactic anyway.
The advantage of dps projection/ undisruptable and ecm being only partially effective at best along with having lots of utility in the highs should be enough.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#386 - 2015-05-24 14:34:14 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
pure blasterboats should have the highest dps since the tradeoff is tiny range and uses cap too and needs tackle too be effective, droneboats ought too have lower dps in general as the tradeoffs are only destructable dps and that often isn't a viable tactic anyway.
The advantage of dps projection/ undisruptable and ecm being only partially effective at best along with having lots of utility in the highs should be enough.

Dont forget the absurd fitting space the ishtar has and does not need
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#387 - 2015-05-24 15:37:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Desudes wrote:

This fit does not get the numbers previously put up


Bullshit. Smile

I said 60k EHP, 430 DPS at 110 + 50km - Neither Zealot nor Eagle can reach that.

Sentry vs HB tracking:

Tracking/Chance to hit AB shield HAC target: http://i.imgur.com/UV7IoZc.png
DPS: http://i.imgur.com/GzxCLYe.png

Tracking/Chance to hit MWD shield HAC target: http://i.imgur.com/84VLxdJ.png
DPS: http://i.imgur.com/JgzRSH1.png

Someone do the updated numbers from the OP, I'm le tired - http://www.hostile.dk/files/eve/eve-tracking101.swf

Blink

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Vacant Stare
Nefariam Cementarii
#388 - 2015-05-24 15:48:14 UTC
Why is CCP so fixated on nerfing modules when they have 20 pages of comments telling them that the problem is a ship hull and not the weapons system?
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#389 - 2015-05-24 15:58:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Zappity wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both.

Um...
CCP Rise wrote:
First, we wanted to establish whether the problem was more about the Ishtar or more about Sentry Drones. The data makes a pretty convincing case that it really is mostly the Ishtar. While several other ships (Dominix, Navy Vexor, Archon, etc.) are making use of sentries, none of them are anywhere near as sentry reliant as the Ishtar and none of them are coming close to the overall damage that Ishtars represent on TQ.


Double drone bonuses to Battleship-sized weaponry on a cruiser hull remain, though to be fair do compare base unbonused sentry range & tracking to find that they are superior to both 425mm Railguns and Tachyon Beams, hence this thread.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you **** off 90% of the forums.

Big smile


I like you. Keep Fighting the Good Fight, CCP Fozzie. Cool

Ravcharas wrote:

People keep bringing this up like they just figured out the da vinci code. "They're battleship weapons they're battleship tier weapons hey everyone they are battleship tier! Guys! Guys!"

Drones don't work that way.


They work even in a better way: The tracking is independent of the host ship's direction, speed or range relative to the target. On top of being Battleship-sized weapons with absolutely BEST in-class range & tracking.

An anchored Ishtar fleet is a fascinating thing to observe - like cancer eating a healthy cell. Blink

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#390 - 2015-05-24 16:38:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Vlade Randal wrote:


I think its reasonable to give sentries an overall nerf... however
I agree that the Ishtar hull bonuses need to be adjusted as well.

Currently the Ishtar has the following buffs:

Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed
10% bonus to Light Drone, Medium Drone, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage
5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage.

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):
5000m bonus to Drone operation range
5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed

Role Bonus:
50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty

In addition to the proposed changes to sentry drones, I suggest that the Ishtar needs to have the following hull bonus adjusted:

"5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed"

I think the tracking speed bonus to sentries needs to be removed, so that the bonus is:

"5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range"



The issue is glaringly obvious and you have identified it, but your solution is not the right one - removing Sentry Optimal range instead of Tracking would bring them in line with the ranges that other HACs operate, while retaining Medium turret-like tracking. Smile

Even without the Optimal range double bonus, the Wardens, Bouncers & Curators on the Ishtar or VNI would outclass both the Eagle and the Zealot in damage at those ranges.

With the Zealot you go from 323 DPS at 101+15 km w/ Aurora, to 371 DPS at 56+15 km with IN Standard.
The Eagle is a lot more flexible here - 260 DPS w/ Spike at 168+20 km, 411 DPS with CN Plutonium at 58+20 km and 370 DPS at 70+20 km with CN Uranium. Smile

One TE, one TC, 2x Heat Sink setup on the Zealot and 1x TC, 3x Magstab on the Eagle.

Not accounting for the changes in the OP of this thread:

1) An unbonused Curator setup on the Ishtar would be 487 DPS at 62.7 + 16.9 km;
2) Unbonused Bouncers 457 DPS at 54 + 76 km range;
3) Unbonused Wardens with 426 DPS at 89.6 + 59 km.

Sentries on cruiser hulls with 125 MB drone bandwidth is cancer - http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#391 - 2015-05-25 01:10:15 UTC
Vacant Stare wrote:
Why is CCP so fixated on nerfing modules when they have 20 pages of comments telling them that the problem is a ship hull and not the weapons system?



My theory is someone has some really good blackmail pics of ccp staff of them doing stuff on a pub crawl. The demand made: leave ishtar alone or it these pics go public.

Its the only thing that makes sense. Vice you know nerfing a whole weapons system for ships not even made op by them. This make no sense....I am being guided to ishtars to run sentries. and its not subtle guiding either.

Unless ccp can show evidence that my say rokh was an op beast of doom and destruction if it ran 2 sentries to warrant this nerf I will go with the blackmail option.
Dimitrios Bekas
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#392 - 2015-05-25 03:02:11 UTC
afkalt wrote:
I think you're hurting the hulls which are not bonused for them disproportionately hard compared to the bonused ones.

No-one complains about a sentry geddon. The issues sit firmly in the bonused hulls, who will feel this less because of their already huge advantage over their peer group.

I know you like to balance the weapons and not blame hulls but in this case, it clearly IS the hulls.

***********
*************
***************

This*
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#393 - 2015-05-25 03:30:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Dentia Caecus wrote:
These vessels do not need a nerf at the present time. Fozzie mentioned some of these vessels in his post, but where is the data to support his conclusions, empirical or otherwise. While possible, I would be surprised to learn that fleets of VNI's or Armageddons are out there destroying every fleet encountered. Is it possible? Yes. Likely? No. Are the above hulls useful for other reasons, including, but not limited to mainline pve, skirmish pvp and roles within large pvp with their respective drone bonus intact? Yes.

The big offender here is the Ishtar. I happen to love the vessel but I both see and appreciate the bigger picture: Do not nerf an entire weapons system when the overwhelming problem is one **** hull.

Does the community always get it right? No, we don't. But in this instance a cacophony of voices are presenting well reasoned arguments why Fozzie and his team made a mistake. This situation is reminiscent of f the jump changes as applied to JF's. Former CCP Greyscale listened to the community, mea culpa-ed and acted accordingly. I hope Fozzie does the same. I sincerely doubt it, but I have hope.



The VNI is way out of line compared to other navy cruisers, here's the number of kills for each navy cruiser in April 2015:

Vexor Navy Issue: 15 770

Exequror Navy Issue: 1 734

Caracal Navy Issue: 689

Osprey Navy Issue: 695

Scythe Fleet Issue: 3 695

Stabber Fleet Issue: 3 242

Navy Omen: 9 992

Augoror Navy Issue: 5 356

So the Navy Vexor is getting nearly 23 times more kills than a Navy Caracal


A 47k EHP, 550 / 584 DPS at 53+76 km / 62+16.8 km on a Tech 1 cruiser, yo. You can break 600 sentry DPS with 3 DDAs. Smile It's 850 DPS with Ogre II that can track frigates unbonused. Smile

-=Drone Cruisers Online=-


James Spacecrawler wrote:
So exploring the thought that Ishtars should lose their ability to field Sentries, should they receive massive railgun bonuses instead to be able to compete with the other long range HACs? Should the Deimos then become the drone boat instead?


http://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-odyssey-1.1

Quote:
ISHTAR:
Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty.
Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:

7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage).
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage.
Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:

5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level.
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed(was bonus to drone bay capacity).


Smile

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#394 - 2015-05-25 04:46:48 UTC
I don't think the Ishtar should lose Sentries.. they just shouldn't be bonused. And ideal, I'd like to see it lose the range bonus, you want range, use yours highs for Links and lows for CPU like everyone else, THEN you're making a trade.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#395 - 2015-05-25 07:48:50 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
A 47k EHP, 550 / 584 DPS at 53+76 km / 62+16.8 km on a Tech 1 cruiser, yo. You can break 600 sentry DPS with 3 DDAs. Smile It's 850 DPS with Ogre II that can track frigates unbonused. Smile



VNI isn't anywhere near as horrible as the other hulls, missing a lot of the key facets: T2 resists, drone control range, MWD sig reduction, smaller bay (bombing them is actually viable as they can only carry 1 full flight of sentries) and it even has trouble targeting that far out.

The take away here is that they are very much simpler to counter than domis or ishtars, various options exist and are neither niche nor limited in their application.

VNIs are kittens next to the other hulls, believe me. I've fought more ishtar balls than I care to remember and there's always some newbros in VNIs...and they are ALWAYS shot first because they pop like eggs and it wipes DPS off field quickly.
Gul Barat
Corporation of DEA
Memento Moriendo
#396 - 2015-05-25 07:56:05 UTC
Not everyone is PvPing with an Ishtar. I hate this nerf, it ruins my PvE income Twisted
Anthar Thebess
#397 - 2015-05-25 07:58:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
afkalt wrote:
I think you're hurting the hulls which are not bonused for them disproportionately hard compared to the bonused ones.

No-one complains about a sentry geddon. The issues sit firmly in the bonused hulls, who will feel this less because of their already huge advantage over their peer group.

I know you like to balance the weapons and not blame hulls but in this case, it clearly IS the hulls.


Confirm this.
Change the hulls finally - sentry drones are broken but only when it comes to :
- Isthar
- Dominix
- Carrier

Parially broken sentry ships that new Drone Ewar will make even more balanced:
- vexor navy
- Rattlesnake

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#398 - 2015-05-25 10:39:41 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Vacant Stare wrote:
Why is CCP so fixated on nerfing modules when they have 20 pages of comments telling them that the problem is a ship hull and not the weapons system?



My theory is someone has some really good blackmail pics of ccp staff of them doing stuff on a pub crawl. The demand made: leave ishtar alone or it these pics go public.

Its the only thing that makes sense. Vice you know nerfing a whole weapons system for ships not even made op by them. This make no sense....I am being guided to ishtars to run sentries. and its not subtle guiding either.

Unless ccp can show evidence that my say rokh was an op beast of doom and destruction if it ran 2 sentries to warrant this nerf I will go with the blackmail option.


I'm not interested in blackmailing CCP, I'd just like to go on the next such pub-crawl...
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#399 - 2015-05-25 11:56:19 UTC
Just give us PvE sentries, 25x cost, 2x durability, decent PvE capability compared to other PvE fits (after the last nerf attempting to PvE with bouncers is already inferior). There is also a HUGE difference in PvE capabilities between different factions heavy drones which can also be addressed.

Then I will honestly give no fucks about what you do to PvP versions.

And answering the obvious question I'm going to get, if somebody decides to throw 5 drones each costing roughly a T3 destroyer hull into PvP, he deserves the performance boost.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Derren Zelway
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#400 - 2015-05-25 12:09:07 UTC
Excellent changes! This will not fix drone combat entirely but it is definitely another step in the right direction.

Thank you Fozzie!