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Covert Ops Changes/Feedback thread.

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Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#1 - 2015-05-24 18:50:13 UTC
Hi there, I thought I'd make a thread to pen some ideas with Covert Ops (The scan kind) as they haven't yet gone through the Tiericide Process yet and would like to point out a few Issues and suggestions

Issues

  • There are fairly inconsistent fittings between the Covert Ops, The Anathema/Helios have significantly more Powergrid than the Cheetah&Buzzard. The Cheetah/Buzzard can't even fit all their slots with 1PG modules with a Micro-Warpdrive without needing a fitting module.
  • The Helios lacks a 3rd high slot which all other Covert Ops have, although it gets an extra lowslot and a 5m3 drone bay & bandwidth.
  • All Covert Ops have complete garbage bonuses for the Frigate Per Level Bonuses. Turret/Missile Damage per level, yuck. Only the Anathema gets a marginal useful bonus (Cap Regen per level)
  • Covert Ops should be the premium ship class for getting on-grid warp ins, positioning while cloaked, scanning, and running through hostile space, however T3 Cruisers outperform them with Interdiction Nullification, similar Agility, stronger probing (more slots for scanning upgrades if desired), and more utility (Links/Much Tackle with Covert Cyno)


Ideas:
Boost the PG on the Cheetah and Buzzard to at least 25PG like the Helios and Anathema have.

Split the Covert Ops into 2 'Flavors' Skirmish/Strength (Much like the Scimitar/Scythe+Oneiros/Exequror vs the Osprey/Basilisk+Augoror/Guardian).

Skirmish Covert Ops would be more geared to providing warp-ins and running through hostile camps. +1 extra slot overall.
Strength Covert Ops would have better probing utility bonuses.

Skirmish (Helios & Cheetah)
Helios +1 High Slot (Remove the drone bay) (3/5/3)
Cheetah +1 Low Slot. (3/4/4)
Frigate Per Level Bonuses: 10% bonus to cloaked ship velocity, 4% bonus to agility (25% better align time at all V)

10% cloaked velocity allows them to sneak up and provide warp-ins better (It always bugged me that afterburning cruisers could out-run a covert ops cloaked trying to sneak up on them) also gives much more likely hood of running a camp in nullsec since they will have attack frigate speeds for the first cloak+mwd cycle, would still not be invincible and could be decloaked by ceptors/dramiel before reaching edge of an interdictor bubble, and also larger bubbles could be used in a camp too so that they don't reach the edge before mwd cycle turns off, would be fair.

Fixes the Helios High slot issue.

Strength Covert Ops (Buzzard & Anathema)
Increase CPU on them both by a nice margin, so fitting scanning upgrades on them is easier.
Frigate Per Level Bonuses: 2% reduction scan probe time, 4% bonus to scan probe deviation. (Alternative suggestions for a bonus, 10% reduction in scanning upgrade CPU needs)

10% faster scan time (much more powerful than it sounds!) and 20% less scan deviation with extra CPU for more scanning upgrades seems pretty fair, this would make them take the spot of *best* scanners from the 7 scanning upgrade mid Tengu.

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Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#2 - 2015-05-24 22:06:18 UTC
I appreciate reading your well thought and written post.
NiceBig smile

I do alot of scanning for both combat and anomalies. It has taken months of training time to get the Astrometric skills I have, and while I would welcome additional bonuses I am reluctant to see the proliferation of powerful scanning abilities to ship bonuses and modules. You yourself indicate the power of scanning with a fast cloaky ship to drastically alter a battle or situation. There is good reason to consider scanning buffs carefully.

I would be more inclined to boost the skill bonuses rather than the ship or module bonuses. There are implants for scanning perks (AP's, AQ's AR's, and bloody expensive Virtue set) and with modules and SoE gear you can scan down nearly anything. The exception are those who spend as much time & ISK to thwart your attempts which is only right to have counters available. Halo sets are expensive and low Sig/Str fits are typically paper thin and useless in combat.

As for rebalancing the slot layouts, I have no disagreements. Weapon bonuses? It has it's usesTwisted

Now for PG and CPU, I would not add much more than a couple of points to either. I personally can work with what is already there.

It is possible to fit what you want on an existing Covops Frigate.
For example:

[Buzzard, Buzzard Scan]

Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Scan Pinpointing Array II
Scan Pinpointing Array II
Scan Rangefinding Array II
Scan Rangefinding Array II

Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher,
Sisters Combat Scanner Probe
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Small Ancillary Current Router II
Small Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I

(with Lvl5 skills, no implants) this ship travels quickly while cloaked (~450m/s) and uncloaked (~2800m/s) and cap stable

TL;DR
I wouldn't support ship-based or mudule scanning bonus buffs, but would support skill changes. Slot re-allocation is okay.

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome
Arla Sarain
#3 - 2015-05-24 23:08:49 UTC
Specia1 K wrote:


As for rebalancing the slot layouts, I have no disagreements. Weapon bonuses? It has it's usesTwisted


Thing is, you could have done that without the trivial bonuses.

They get 2 bonused missiles/turrets, with the exception of the buzzard that gets a double bonus of 60% total.

And it conflicts greatly with the slot layout, with max 3 highs, neither can really fit reliably for any kind of hunting. You get get DPS+cloak, DPS+probes, but neither will help you.

CCP should consider either removing them entirely, or removing a Turret/missile hardpoint and adding a 100% role bonus.
Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-05-24 23:29:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Specia1 K
Arla Sarain wrote:
Specia1 K wrote:


As for rebalancing the slot layouts, I have no disagreements. Weapon bonuses? It has it's usesTwisted


Thing is, you could have done that without the trivial bonuses.

They get 2 bonused missiles/turrets, with the exception of the buzzard that gets a double bonus of 60% total.

And it conflicts greatly with the slot layout, with max 3 highs, neither can really fit reliably for any kind of hunting. You get get DPS+cloak, DPS+probes, but neither will help you.

CCP should consider either removing them entirely, or removing a Turret/missile hardpoint and adding a 100% role bonus.


No argument from me removing the weapons bonuses. But these are the racial bonus, typically weapons or resistance based.
Or would you rather the salvager bonus from the T1 exploration frigs?

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#5 - 2015-05-25 00:43:58 UTC
I'm a fan of the flavor here, well thought out and written, plus cloak velocity bonuses would be nice to see on other hulls than a black ops where they can actually see every day use by a bulk of players.

The fitting adjustments i also agree with, largely due to my bias as a buzzard pilot though.

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#6 - 2015-05-25 03:52:21 UTC
I agree with some, but not all of your ideas.

I would like to see reasons to use a Covert Ops over a T3 for reasons that are not just cost or straight up "what has the strongest probe strength." I currently use T3's on my scanning characters - despite also having Covert Ops trained to Level 5 - because I can fit the Loki and Tengu to be better covert ops frigates than any of the covert ops frigates.

So, I'd support little things like faster probe warp speeds and reduced scan probe time. I think this adds flavor, without making any ship class clearly superior in every situation.

Fixing the slot layout will also go a long way towards fixing the situation. Mid slots are essential on any covert ops frigate. Low slots are essentially pointless with the current uses for covert ops ships. The Buzzard currently has the best slot layout of any Covert Ops frigate, for most uses.

Your proposed agility bonus takes away too much of the risk from a ship that is already really safe when flown and fit properly. Ships that can warp cloaked should not die if the pilot is experienced and/or pays attention. They do not need to become even more fool proof (which is why I hate that T3 cruisers have nullification AND can warp cloaked).

I like the idea of being able to fly faster cloaked. It helps with getting closer to targets you are hunting and other scouting functions.

I also suggest removing the cloaking targeting delay. These ships are pretty fragile, but I like the idea of them being able to decloak and point a target they have been scanning down and/or stalking.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2015-05-25 06:59:53 UTC
Here's a couple thoughts I'd like to be considered, and see if they're too OP, or what.


  • Can launch probes while cloaked, without being decloaked

  • Probes that cannot be detected on D-scan... Can still be detected with other probes

  • Perhaps extremely long range point bonus (to warp disruptor only)... This means they're meant to find a target and hold them for a short duration, with no tank, you're relying on the range of point to keep you safe.

  • more significant bonuses to scanning in general. With maxed bonuses and equal fitting, you should never out scan one of these ships on any basis other than player capability.

  • I like the idea of high mobility when cloaked

  • Interdiction nullified



With interdiction nullification, LONG range points, and d-scan proof probes, these things would almost be necessities to any fleet.
Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#8 - 2015-05-25 08:19:06 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Here's a couple thoughts I'd like to be considered, and see if they're too OP, or what.


  • Can launch probes while cloaked, without being decloaked

  • Probes that cannot be detected on D-scan... Can still be detected with other probes

  • Perhaps extremely long range point bonus (to warp disruptor only)... This means they're meant to find a target and hold them for a short duration, with no tank, you're relying on the range of point to keep you safe.

  • more significant bonuses to scanning in general. With maxed bonuses and equal fitting, you should never out scan one of these ships on any basis other than player capability.

  • I like the idea of high mobility when cloaked

  • Interdiction nullified



With interdiction nullification, LONG range points, and d-scan proof probes, these things would almost be necessities to any fleet.


That's OP.

-No, decloaking to launch probes is really the only risk you take once in a system

-No. Hidden probes would be a function of the probes, not the ship.

-Yes, a scram/disruption range bonus would be good, but would seem to be a Role bonus

-Hmm, there is currently no penalty to movement while cloaked with CovOps.

-Really? Another nullified ship?

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome
Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#9 - 2015-05-25 08:30:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Specia1 K
-double post-

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome
Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#10 - 2015-05-25 08:54:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Specia1 K
Thoughts about cloaked speed:

The Buzzard, as in my example, can be fitted to travel at 513m/s while cloaked (requires dropping the MWD for an AB, rigging for speed and Overdrive II's in the lows). That is faster than the base speed of a Svipul in prop mode.

What is being asked for in this thread is the only bonus that is unique to BlackOps (125% bonus to ship max velocity when using Cloaking Devices). This bonus is intended for a Battleship, btw.

Edit:
The base speed of a Taranis is 525m/s. Just sayin...


Further, if you took a page from a different book:

[Prospect, prospect - probey]

Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II

1MN Microwarpdrive II
Scan Rangefinding Array II
Scan Pinpointing Array II

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher
Sisters Combat Scanner Probe
125mm Railgun II, Spike S

Small Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I
Small Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I

657m/s base speed, 3900m/s MWD (5520m/s overloaded) and cap stable.

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#11 - 2015-05-25 09:12:37 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Here's a couple thoughts I'd like to be considered, and see if they're too OP, or what.


  • Can launch probes while cloaked, without being decloaked

  • Probes that cannot be detected on D-scan... Can still be detected with other probes

  • Perhaps extremely long range point bonus (to warp disruptor only)... This means they're meant to find a target and hold them for a short duration, with no tank, you're relying on the range of point to keep you safe.

  • more significant bonuses to scanning in general. With maxed bonuses and equal fitting, you should never out scan one of these ships on any basis other than player capability.

  • I like the idea of high mobility when cloaked

  • Interdiction nullified



With interdiction nullification, LONG range points, and d-scan proof probes, these things would almost be necessities to any fleet.


Even one of the above would be OP. All of them together is just ludicrous.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Arla Sarain
#12 - 2015-05-25 14:31:51 UTC
Specia1 K wrote:
Thoughts about cloaked speed:

The Buzzard, as in my example, can be fitted to travel at 513m/s while cloaked (requires dropping the MWD for an AB, rigging for speed and Overdrive II's in the lows). That is faster than the base speed of a Svipul in prop mode.

What is being asked for in this thread is the only bonus that is unique to BlackOps (125% bonus to ship max velocity when using Cloaking Devices). This bonus is intended for a Battleship, btw.

Edit:
The base speed of a Taranis is 525m/s. Just sayin...


Further, if you took a page from a different book:

[Prospect, prospect - probey]

Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II

1MN Microwarpdrive II
Scan Rangefinding Array II
Scan Pinpointing Array II

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher
Sisters Combat Scanner Probe
125mm Railgun II, Spike S

Small Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I
Small Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I

657m/s base speed, 3900m/s MWD (5520m/s overloaded) and cap stable.

In what practical environment would 500m/s allow you to do anything? Having a cloaked speed higher than some other ships base speed demonstrates nothing. Neither of those ships would or should be moving without a propmod active.

BO battleships move faster when cloaked. I think its fair that that translates onto the cov-ops frigs. Removing targetting delay would be nice, otherwise there is no motivation to decloak in a cov-ops frig beyond opening data/relic cans.

Giving them tackle bonus is stepping on interceptor roles, especially considering that cov-ops get the same warp speed.
Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#13 - 2015-05-25 14:49:21 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:

In what practical environment would 500m/s allow you to do anything? Having a cloaked speed higher than some other ships base speed demonstrates nothing. Neither of those ships would or should be moving without a propmod active.

BO battleships move faster when cloaked. I think its fair that that translates onto the cov-ops frigs. Removing targetting delay would be nice, otherwise there is no motivation to decloak in a cov-ops frig beyond opening data/relic cans.

Giving them tackle bonus is stepping on interceptor roles, especially considering that cov-ops get the same warp speed.


So you also support a faster cloaked speed for the CovOps while cloaked. Fair enough.

I obviously don't see the justification for it. The BlackOps cannot fit a CovOps cloak and suffers the speed reduction penalty of the other Cloaking devices. Would you also apply this fitting restriction along with the 'new' CovOps bonus, then?

What I see is a wish to make the CovOps scanning frigates into BlackOps frigates. Be careful what you wish for...

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome
Lugh Crow-Slave
#14 - 2015-05-25 14:56:31 UTC
Oh no things are different we can't have thatShocked



fittings are not all there is to a ship when it comes to balance

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Arla Sarain
#15 - 2015-05-25 17:48:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Maybe to set them apart from the rest of the cov ops line, allow them to move when lighting a cyno. This alone opens up a lot of opportunities without the need of blanket buffs like speed increase and all. This may sound drastic, but then Recons don't show up on d-scan. So I don't think moveable cynos are unreasonable, considering that the bonus is attached to a ship that has less EHP than most T1 frigs.

Even though there is still a targeting delay, there is now motivation to decloak, tackle, and light cynos whilst attempting to survive with what little tank you get.

Might even give merit to actually be a dedicated cov-ops pilot for a gang, rather than a handy alt.

The downside is that a poor pilot will cyno the fleet all over the grid, splitting it apart. This can put the fleet in a dangerous situation.
Arla Sarain
#16 - 2015-05-27 11:15:12 UTC
Bumping, CCPlease.

The combat bonuses always felt like a joke. Now that Micro shield extenders and 50mm plates are being removed, I think Cov-Ops frigs deserve a critical makeover, considering that they typically hold positions as alts or part of neutral corps to maintain their illusive anonymity.
Arla Sarain
#17 - 2015-06-06 20:00:09 UTC
Shameless bump.
Sincerely hope CCP is not averse to move these out of "let me grab my alt" zone and considering changes along with the Black Ops line.
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#18 - 2015-07-25 18:30:33 UTC
Very low maximum capacitor is also a big issue for lower skilled players. Cheetah with low skills can't even warp 40au without capping itself out. Increasing the Max Capacitor on them would also be great for Quality of Life (increase the cap regeneration if you want to keep the cap/s the same although I think improving the cap life on covert ops wouldn't hurt too much, it would help them in combat to be able to run mwd+long point for longer than 20s when trying to tackle some target for a fleet

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Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#19 - 2015-07-27 03:17:00 UTC
Sure a blops has a cloaked speed bonus, but it also can't warp while cloaked. You are free to nanofit your covops with a full set of Snakes!

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2015-07-27 04:41:09 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Sure a blops has a cloaked speed bonus, but it also can't warp while cloaked. You are free to nanofit your covops with a full set of Snakes!


This is true, but it doesn't make CovOps any more useful.
They need something other than just probing.
Sure, they can hack, but that has no application in PVP.

Would be nice if they had something that makes them at least a little effective at PVP.
Anything I can think of is either OP or would negate the use of another ship class.

These ships are going to be a hard one for CCP to figure out a good place combat wise.
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