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why do players stay in npc corps?

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Nevil Oscillator
#941 - 2015-05-23 17:48:18 UTC
There is really no moral obligation to join a player corp, there are many greater moral dilemas in this game than that. lol
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#942 - 2015-05-23 19:47:29 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

They don't leave station so it's irrelevant. I did say that all the bittervet combat support and hauler alts hiding in NPC corps should be at risk also, rather than ONLY the people flying industrials or mission boats in highsec as their primary activity.



Risk vs reward purely reflects against income generating activities.


Well no. Risk vs. Reward should apply to kills and other forms of content more than meaningless space bux.


It already does, that's what the Loot Fairy is for in the first place.

But income generating activities, those things that you can do that add assets into the game world, those are what risk vs reward primarily targets.

It exists to combat rampant inflation, because the economy is driven by loss.


I don't think there is a lack of loss in EVE. And I don't see how you can view inflation as such a serious problem, over farming is an issue that corrects itself as the more people that are farming a specific resource the more the value of that resource will drop. It's a self correcting problem.

I haven't heard of CCP's pet economist talking about rampant inflation in the money supply as a mortal threat to the game's economy. So I'm going to stand by my opinion that killmails, bragging rights, content that has intrinsic value greater than pixel dollars and is the reason most of us are here, should be more subject to risk vs reward than ISK. I don't see what the loot fairy has to do with anything as that's just a determinant of how much ISK can be generated through PvP and most PvP doesn't involve ISK generation as the primary objective.

I'm sorry I look at killboards and I don't really see a devastating lack of destruction in EVE. What I do see is a set of players accustomed to doing their destruction in high sec that see that becoming more difficult and requiring a little more effort, and they are understandably not happy about it. If I'd been playing longer and developed an entire playing style around violencing stupid in highsec I'd no doubt feel the same way.
Nevil Oscillator
#943 - 2015-05-24 04:25:24 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
What I do see is a set of players accustomed to doing their destruction in high sec that see that becoming more difficult and requiring a little more effort, and they are understandably not happy about it. If I'd been playing longer and developed an entire playing style around violencing stupid in highsec I'd no doubt feel the same way.


The answer is nerf high sec so that everyone can get in on the action and start shooting unarmed industrial ships to give them more competition.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#944 - 2015-05-24 10:26:45 UTC
Nevil Oscillator wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
What I do see is a set of players accustomed to doing their destruction in high sec that see that becoming more difficult and requiring a little more effort, and they are understandably not happy about it. If I'd been playing longer and developed an entire playing style around violencing stupid in highsec I'd no doubt feel the same way.


The answer is nerf high sec so that everyone can get in on the action and start shooting unarmed industrial ships to give them more competition.


Making highsec PvP more accessible would help, whether you were joking about that or not. The only reason most of the existing wardec and ganker groups have such a field day is because they're big enough and organized enough to have a functional monopoly on space violence, since the restrictive mechanics make conglomeration into large groups the only reasonable solution.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#945 - 2015-05-24 15:04:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Nevil Oscillator wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
What I do see is a set of players accustomed to doing their destruction in high sec that see that becoming more difficult and requiring a little more effort, and they are understandably not happy about it. If I'd been playing longer and developed an entire playing style around violencing stupid in highsec I'd no doubt feel the same way.


The answer is nerf high sec so that everyone can get in on the action and start shooting unarmed industrial ships to give them more competition.


Making highsec PvP more accessible would help, whether you were joking about that or not. The only reason most of the existing wardec and ganker groups have such a field day is because they're big enough and organized enough to have a functional monopoly on space violence, since the restrictive mechanics make conglomeration into large groups the only reasonable solution.


Making PVP more accessible, yes.
Making PVP more forced and mandatory, no.

See, you seem to be under the blind assumption that your play style is accepted by all, and what will keep Eve alive and profiting.
When in fact, the opposite it true.
For now, CCP seems to be happy with the income they gain from the dedicated, smaller group, that enjoy Eve exactly the way it is.

HOWEVER, if they want to be big, and bring in a lot more players, they'll have to take a more casual approach.

What everyone seems to be missing is that CCP is already doing this.

They changed the way Concord works, so that they respond faster.
They've made normally ganked ships beefier and/or given them accessibility to fit beefier.
They made changes to wardecs, though still one sided, gives the target a way out and makes it a bit more costly to the attacker.
Changes to awoxing.
Changes to the new player experience, which believe it or not, hard cores were against.
Removal of med clones.
There are likely other changes I can't think of.


Meanwhile, they're making null sec life more difficult, low sec more worthwhile, WH space more entertaining, and high sec more safe.
See, to me it appears they're trying to build a game that will accommodate all play styles and all types of players.

So, high sec will be casual, low will be a buffer to get experience with PvP, WH space will be a slightly safer version of null, while null will be fore the dedicated hard cores.

Give it time... I can see the shift.
Maybe you are oblivious?
Nevil Oscillator
#946 - 2015-05-24 15:23:22 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Nevil Oscillator wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
What I do see is a set of players accustomed to doing their destruction in high sec that see that becoming more difficult and requiring a little more effort, and they are understandably not happy about it. If I'd been playing longer and developed an entire playing style around violencing stupid in highsec I'd no doubt feel the same way.


The answer is nerf high sec so that everyone can get in on the action and start shooting unarmed industrial ships to give them more competition.


Making highsec PvP more accessible would help, whether you were joking about that or not. The only reason most of the existing wardec and ganker groups have such a field day is because they're big enough and organized enough to have a functional monopoly on space violence, since the restrictive mechanics make conglomeration into large groups the only reasonable solution.


Making PVP more accessible, yes.
Making PVP more forced and mandatory, no.

See, you seem to be under the blind assumption that your play style is accepted by all, and what will keep Eve alive and profiting.
When in fact, the opposite it true.
For now, CCP seems to be happy with the income they gain from the dedicated, smaller group, that enjoy Eve exactly the way it is.

HOWEVER, if they want to be big, and bring in a lot more players, they'll have to take a more casual approach.

What everyone seems to be missing is that CCP is already doing this.

They changed the way Concord works, so that they respond faster.
They've made normally ganked ships beefier and/or given them accessibility to fit beefier.
They made changes to wardecs, though still one sided, gives the target a way out and makes it a bit more costly to the attacker.
Changes to awoxing.
Changes to the new player experience, which believe it or not, hard cores were against.
Removal of med clones.
There are likely other changes I can't think of.


Meanwhile, they're making null sec life more difficult, low sec more worthwhile, WH space more entertaining, and high sec more safe.
See, to me it appears they're trying to build a game that will accommodate all play styles and all types of players.

So, high sec will be casual, low will be a buffer to get experience with PvP, WH space will be a slightly safer version of null, while null will be fore the dedicated hard cores.

Give it time... I can see the shift.
Maybe you are oblivious?



Perhaps there could be other ways of losing concord protection. Your safety green setting will always protect you unless you have a sec status of -5. I think I suggested once that corporations should run missions to hunt and kill players with very low standing. A nice idea but I don't think it would be worth doing the way eve currently works.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#947 - 2015-05-24 16:02:45 UTC
Nevil Oscillator wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Nevil Oscillator wrote:
[quote=Demerius Xenocratus] What I do see is a set of players accustomed to doing their destruction in high sec that see that becoming more difficult and requiring a little more effort, and they are understandably not happy about it. If I'd been playing longer and developed an entire playing style around violencing stupid in highsec I'd no doubt feel the same way.


The answer is nerf high sec so that everyone can get in on the action and start shooting unarmed industrial ships to give them more competition.


Making highsec PvP more accessible would help, whether you were joking about that or not. The only reason most of the existing wardec and ganker groups have such a field day is because they're big enough and organized enough to have a functional monopoly on space violence, since the restrictive mechanics make conglomeration into large groups the only reasonable solution.


Making PVP more accessible, yes.
Making PVP more forced and mandatory, no.

See, you seem to be under the blind assumption that your play style is accepted by all, and what will keep Eve alive and profiting.
When in fact, the opposite it true.
For now, CCP seems to be happy with the income they gain from the dedicated, smaller group, that enjoy Eve exactly the way it is.

HOWEVER, if they want to be big, and bring in a lot more players, they'll have to take a more casual approach.

What everyone seems to be missing is that CCP is already doing this.

They changed the way Concord works, so that they respond faster.
They've made normally ganked ships beefier and/or given them accessibility to fit beefier.
They made changes to wardecs, though still one sided, gives the target a way out and makes it a bit more costly to the attacker.
Changes to awoxing.
Changes to the new player experience, which believe it or not, hard cores were against.
Removal of med clones.
There are likely other changes I can't think of.


Meanwhile, they're making null sec life more difficult, low sec more worthwhile, WH space more entertaining, and high sec more safe.
See, to me it appears they're trying to build a game that will accommodate all play styles and all types of players.

So, high sec


Perhaps there could be other ways of losing concord protection. Your safety green setting will always protect you unless you have a sec status of -5. I think I suggested once that corporations should run missions to hunt and kill players with very low standing. A nice idea but I don't think it would be worth doing the way eve currently works.





The problem then becomes, where do you find PVE players that would accept the mission to attack another player?
I think it's a cool idea, but it should be something for bounty hunters.
Nevil Oscillator
#948 - 2015-05-24 18:50:04 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:



The problem then becomes, where do you find PVE players that would accept the mission to attack another player?
I think it's a cool idea, but it should be something for bounty hunters.



I'm not sure what you mean

Isn't that like saying industry should be something for arms dealers ?
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#949 - 2015-05-24 21:45:16 UTC
Nevil Oscillator wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
What I do see is a set of players accustomed to doing their destruction in high sec that see that becoming more difficult and requiring a little more effort, and they are understandably not happy about it. If I'd been playing longer and developed an entire playing style around violencing stupid in highsec I'd no doubt feel the same way.


The answer is nerf high sec so that everyone can get in on the action and start shooting unarmed industrial ships to give them more competition.



Can't tell if serious.

Even after a series of well deserved nerfs, highsec PvP is INSANELY easy. And once you start bringing alts and multiboxing into the equation, it becomes less challenging than a good bit of PvE content. Untanked industrials and barges continue to litter killboards, and one of C&P's better known miscreants has inflicted billions of ISK in damage on at least a dozen highsec badcorps in the past month alone.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#950 - 2015-05-24 23:13:59 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

Making PVP more accessible, yes.
Making PVP more forced and mandatory, no.


They are the same thing. Non consensual PvP is the cornerstone of EVE Online, and making highsec PvP more accessible means more wars, more ganking, and more reason to bother defending yourself.

And with more ship loss, comes more profit for industrial players, and the economy cycles through more often.

Quote:

See, you seem to be under the blind assumption that your play style is accepted by all, and what will keep Eve alive and profiting.
When in fact, the opposite it true.


Oh? Because that kinda flies in the face of CCP's own statements, that those players involved in non consensual PvP have the highest retention rates.

And since we know that making them chew on rocks for weeks makes their subs evaporate, it looks like it's pretty clear what really does keep EVE alive and profiting.


Quote:

HOWEVER, if they want to be big, and bring in a lot more players, they'll have to take a more casual approach.


You mean kill the game. Because, you know, every MMO in the history of the genre has died after attempting precisely that. Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies being big examples.




Quote:

What everyone seems to be missing is that CCP is already doing this.

They changed the way Concord works, so that they respond faster.
They've made normally ganked ships beefier and/or given them accessibility to fit beefier.
They made changes to wardecs, though still one sided, gives the target a way out and makes it a bit more costly to the attacker.
Changes to awoxing.
Changes to the new player experience, which believe it or not, hard cores were against.
Removal of med clones.
There are likely other changes I can't think of.


And yet, player count drops, coinciding nicely with those things happening, too. Looks like most of those were bad things in the long term, despite the claims of the social rejects who try to say that ruining anything good about this game will bring more players.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#951 - 2015-05-24 23:16:46 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Even after a series of well deserved nerfs, highsec PvP is INSANELY easy.


It's no more inherently hard, or easy, than any other kind of PvP.

It's ease, or difficulty, is entirely dependent on people's ability to defend themselves competently. You're basically complaining that highsec players suck at the game. But the funny part is that they suck at the game because highsec coddles them so much, that unless they run into the exceedingly rare occurrence of being killed by someone like me, they never have to learn how to play the game correctly.


Quote:
Untanked industrials and barges continue to litter killboards, and one of C&P's better known miscreants has inflicted billions of ISK in damage on at least a dozen highsec badcorps in the past month alone.


You'd wonder why people don't start fitting tanks, then.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Nevil Oscillator
#952 - 2015-05-24 23:26:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevil Oscillator
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Even after a series of well deserved nerfs, highsec PvP is INSANELY easy. And once you start bringing alts and multiboxing into the equation, it becomes less challenging than a good bit of PvE content. Untanked industrials and barges continue to litter killboards, and one of C&P's better known miscreants has inflicted billions of ISK in damage on at least a dozen highsec badcorps in the past month alone.


I've never lost a ship in high sec to PVP against someone I am not at war with so I'm not sure if I can agree.

Someone showed me a kill mail of their industrial carrying 400mil of goods. And I laughed heartily because it was paranoid Llyod on the kill mail (Apologies for spelling Lloyd correctly)

T1 industrial with 400m cargo through Deltolle ...,, Just No , don't even think of undocking a T1 industrial with 400m of anything.


You don't use a 1 mil ship for that.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#953 - 2015-05-24 23:31:29 UTC
Nevil Oscillator wrote:

You don't use a 1 mil ship for that.


The funny part is that they think should be able to make such a bad decision without consequence.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Nevil Oscillator
#954 - 2015-05-24 23:36:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevil Oscillator
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


The funny part is that they think should be able to make such a bad decision without consequence.


The only part I sympathise with is the fact the concept of a suicide attack is not very logical compared to other areas of the game.

Something about the certainty of Concord is slightly wrong but that doesn't mean it should be easier.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#955 - 2015-05-24 23:41:03 UTC
Nevil Oscillator wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


The funny part is that they think should be able to make such a bad decision without consequence.


The only part I sympathise with is the fact the concept of a suicide attack is not very logical compared to other areas of the game.

Something about the certainty of Concord is slightly wrong but that doesn't mean it should be easier.


Personally, I'd be all for Concord being tankable, but with escalating damage over time. Concord is too binary right now, which is just a heavy handed, outdated mechanic that has no excuse for it's continued existence.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#956 - 2015-05-24 23:58:29 UTC

Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Can't tell if serious.

Even after a series of well deserved nerfs, highsec PvP is INSANELY easy. And once you start bringing alts and multiboxing into the equation, it becomes less challenging than a good bit of PvE content. Untanked industrials and barges continue to litter killboards, and one of C&P's better known miscreants has inflicted billions of ISK in damage on at least a dozen highsec badcorps in the past month alone.


Not sure if you're serious. Hisec PVP is an environment where there are predators who themselves are not prey to other predators (for the most part). The option to gank gankers has always been open, and with -5 sec status and below any pilot can freely engage a ganker with no repercussions (except retaliation by an elite PVPer!).

These predators are hunting prey who do not scout their gates, tank their ships, or follow any one of the hundreds of writeups and forum posts you can find to avoid getting ganked.

Do you know why a ganker does not tank his ship against aggression from another player? Because the player base has shown itself to be too timid to proactively aggress the ganker (instead of waiting for GCC to kick in).

Player vs. player is "insanely easy" because other players have created this situation. It has nothing to do with the rules as they exist.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#957 - 2015-05-25 00:39:45 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Can't tell if serious.

Even after a series of well deserved nerfs, highsec PvP is INSANELY easy. And once you start bringing alts and multiboxing into the equation, it becomes less challenging than a good bit of PvE content. Untanked industrials and barges continue to litter killboards, and one of C&P's better known miscreants has inflicted billions of ISK in damage on at least a dozen highsec badcorps in the past month alone.


Not sure if you're serious. Hisec PVP is an environment where there are predators who themselves are not prey to other predators (for the most part). The option to gank gankers has always been open, and with -5 sec status and below any pilot can freely engage a ganker with no repercussions (except retaliation by an elite PVPer!).

These predators are hunting prey who do not scout their gates, tank their ships, or follow any one of the hundreds of writeups and forum posts you can find to avoid getting ganked.

Do you know why a ganker does not tank his ship against aggression from another player? Because the player base has shown itself to be too timid to proactively aggress the ganker (instead of waiting for GCC to kick in).

Player vs. player is "insanely easy" because other players have created this situation. It has nothing to do with the rules as they exist.



How can I freely engage them with no repercussions when they're always docked up waiting out timers? I've got better things to do than camping out in a system for hours scouting belts, trying to guess which unranked retriever will be targeted next, just so I can possibly kill a 10M ISK destroyer and empty pod before his target pops.

It's like you think I don't understand how ganking works, or that it's done on dedicated alts with empty pods in ships whose loss is already a given.

There's always going to be easy targets in highsec, whether they be new, casuals, slow learners or just plain dumb. Why are you so attached to farming kills off that crowd endlessly?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#958 - 2015-05-25 00:43:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

How can I freely engage them with no repercussions when they're always docked up waiting out timers?


Whose fault is that? It's not ours. The fault belongs to the carebears, and the punitive mechanics you have demanded over the years.

The way we behave is how the mechanics allow us to behave, while preserving our playstyles at all. You can't fault us for merely existing, although I know that's your intent anyway.

Quote:
I've got better things to do than camping out in a system for hours scouting belts, trying to guess which unranked retriever will be targeted next, just so I can possibly kill a 10M ISK destroyer and empty pod before his target pops.


Then you've abdicated the right to complain about it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#959 - 2015-05-25 01:47:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Sibyyl wrote:

Not sure if you're serious. Hisec PVP is an environment where there are predators who themselves are not prey to other predators (for the most part). The option to gank gankers has always been open, and with -5 sec status and below any pilot can freely engage a ganker with no repercussions (except retaliation by an elite PVPer!).

These predators are hunting prey who do not scout their gates, tank their ships, or follow any one of the hundreds of writeups and forum posts you can find to avoid getting ganked.

Do you know why a ganker does not tank his ship against aggression from another player? Because the player base has shown itself to be too timid to proactively aggress the ganker (instead of waiting for GCC to kick in).

Player vs. player is "insanely easy" because other players have created this situation. It has nothing to do with the rules as they exist.


This has the blind assumption that high sec ganking is hard..
I've killed a Orca, Mackinaw, and a pod with an untanked Caracal before.
All at the same time.

There is very little skill required to pull off a high sec gank, especially during a war dec.

The vast majority of war decs and ganks are specifically towards players you know you can defeat.
And if they don't log in the whole time, you're still winning.

It doesn't matter how much tank you fit on an exhumer, if you want them dead, they will die.
Same goes for a PVE boat. You know that their capability to fight back in PVP is non-existent, because doing so means they can't perform in PVE.


You're there in high specifically because the kills are easy.
If you wanted a challenge, you'd go to low/null.

Let's say you logged on tomorrow and all the carebears suddenly started fighting back, to great effect.

You would likely unsub long before you considered accepting the challenge.

Face it, you want your easy kills because it makes you feel powerful.
If CCP were to take that false power from you, your only means of enjoyment would be gone.

Though, you sit here and preach that carebears should start defending themselves better.
We both know you're going to bail out at the first signs of trouble.
If that's all you ever see, you'll quit long before you'll accept the challenge.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#960 - 2015-05-25 01:58:21 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

This has the blind assumption that high sec ganking is hard..
I've killed a Orca, Mackinaw, and a pod with an untanked Caracal before.
All at the same time.


I see we're into the "lying" phase.

I'm not even going to play around and ask how, I'm simply going to tell you that you did not successfully suicide gank those ships with a Caracal, that you're a liar, and that you should probably just drop out of this thread now.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.