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Astero Insurance Issues
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Dr Jeck
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2015-05-22 01:23:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Jeck
Astero is one sweet faction ship for exploration. With focused exploration training skills, It gives new players like me who have been playing Eve for under 30 days a good chance to find Relic and Data sites in High Security space quickly with its ship stat bonus.

Tech 2 exploration ships take allot of Skill points to fly, but the Astero doesn't which makes it very appealing to new players like myself. I used ISIS through in-game to study all the ships available for the game mechanic that interested me and then used Google to search how I could acquire the ship with less then 20mil isk I had at that time.

This ship can be bought through the Eve market directly, through contracts or station trades. The price for the Astero at the time of posting this is around 70mil isk according to eve-central data.

This ship can be purchased directly through Sisters of Eve faction for 100k LP + 10 mil Isk. You can also purchase a 1 run blueprint through the Sisters of Eve faction with 30k Loyalty Points + 15 mil Isk. There is an in-game item to trade in to the Sisters of Eve faction LP store for an Astero which is called a Rogue Drone 46-X Nexus Chip. The current market value for said item is 70m isk (according to eve-central data at the time of posting this). The Rogue Drone 46-X Nexus Chip is a random item drop that can be looted from combat sites that spawn Sentient Rouge Drones.

I went with the blueprint route through Sisters of Eve LP store.

There are several ways to get Loyalty Points for a faction through missions like Security and Distribution.

I am a very casual EVE player with about 2-3 hour sessions a day. Through the Distribution missions it took roughly two weeks to advance from level 1 mission into level 4 distribution to get enough LP to buy a 1 run blueprint copy of the ship for 30k Loyalty Points + 15mil isk from Sisters of Eve.

Now here is the real problem with this ship and the in-game mechanics regarding insurance payouts.

I assembled the new ship and put the highest grade insurance available for it, which only covered less then 500k.

This is where the problem in the mechanics are. How can a ship that is worth a min of 10mil isk to the Sisters of Eve faction + Loyalty Points or an random item drop turn in with a 70mil isk market value only be worth 500k through insurance???

I spoke to someone in ISD over the Rookie help channel that explained insurance only covers mineral cost to produce the ship. I understand that this mechanic may work for "non faction" ships but it doesn't work for "faction" ships.

The insurance mechanic for the Astero doesn't factor in the ISK it cost just to buy the ship or blueprint to make it from the Sisters of Eve, nor does it reflect any value on Loyalty Points required to purchase it.

There are no warnings about ship insurance gaps prior to purchasing them. There are no tool tips about insurance in ISIS that help show you what you can and cant really afford to fly. Had I known there was this insurance gap issue I would have never spent the two weeks grinding missions to get it.

I would like a developer to review this post from a new player perspective. I understand there is a "steep learning curve" involved in this meta game however I believe this problem was overlooked and should be addressed.

Can a developer or someone in CCP please message me about what I can do to help make it easier for new players to understand how much insurance will be covered prior to purchasing a ship? I have programming experience in several languages. I am also fluent in web based programming languages.

Warm Regards,
Dr Jeck
Richecko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2015-05-22 05:31:32 UTC
The insurance feature does need a re-look as for many ships it only offers a trivial payoff not enough to re-buy your ship hull, much less the config you lost once you add modules and rigs.

It's absolutely a worthwhile project for a web developer to buy 1 of each ship, check the insurance value, sell it back on market, repeat, and then have a site that publishes the insurance value for each with pages optimized so a player would quickly find the site via google search.

I don't know of anywhere that is documented currently and it would be a valuable contribution to the community, straightforward to do and easy to maintain.

It would also be valuable to analyze the assumption that insurance values are based on mineral content and see if they are accurate or if they are based on obsolete info from many releases ago.
Agent Known
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2015-05-22 15:35:23 UTC
Insurance pays back based on the raw materials needed to make the ship. All faction/pirate and T2 ships (include T3 destroyers and cruisers) have very low insurance payouts compared to their T1 counterparts. It only pays back on the *mineral* cost which for anything other than T1 is only a minor part of the build.

That said, it's never worth insuring anything other than T1 or capitals.
Dr Jeck
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2015-05-23 00:54:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Jeck
After a few hours of researching insurance mechanics and then further testing these mechanics via the Singular test server I have found what I believe is the root cause of the broken mechanic causing the insurance discrepancies of "Faction" ship insurance gaps. To keep this post on topic, I will focus on the Astero ship.

Reference to the official CCP Eve Wiki article can be found here: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Insurance

Quote:
Insurance payout values are dynamic (effective since the release of Tyrannis). This means in short that you can choose to insure your ship at a price where the payout will be calculated at the time of the ship loss based on the (then) current market prices and the type of ship you were flying at the time.

What this means is that after every set insurance period, an index will be created calculating the trimmed average values for all building materials that are used in the building of ships (minerals, T2 and T3 components) and when a ship is destroyed, this index will be used to calculate the full replacement value of that ship based on the materials required to build it. The player will then receive an amount of ISK that is defined by the:

(value of the ship according to the index) * (percentage of insurance coverage) * (ship type multiplyer)

The ship type multiplier is used to make some ships more expensive to lose then others. For example; a Tier 1 battleship will have a multiplier of 1, therefore receiving the full benefit of the type of insurance bought, but a Titan may have a multiplier of 0.01, thus only granting a fraction of the insurance value. This change will allow insurance to scale along with changes in the market and is meant (among other things) to minimize the risk of insurance fraud.


This reference documentation from CCP shows the formula used to calculate ship insurance coverage. We can begin to see the insurance gap issue from here by the simplified formula that calculates the insurance scales

Refrence to the CCP Eve Wiki article can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansions_of_Eve_Online

Quote:
Tyrannis Expansion:
Release date: May 26, 2010


This insurance formula has been the standard since 2010. Lets move forward to 2013 when the Astero was introduced to the ship line up.

Refrence to the CCP Eve Wiki article can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansions_of_Eve_Online#Rubicon

Quote:
Rubicon Expansion:
Release date: November 19, 2013

Sisters of EVE faction ships - Branching out to aid capsuleers, the Sisters of EVE have developed a new frigate, cruiser and battleship to support extended travel in hostile areas.


If we use the standard insurance scale formula from a mechanic introduced in 2010 and apply it to a new feature ship introduced in 2013 we can clearly see the problem with the formula. The simplicity of the (ship type multiplier) is the culprit. The Astero is a Frigate class ship. It uses similar (ship type multiplier) as other T1 Frigates. Is this specialized faction Frigate truly the same as any other T1 Frigate ship available? The answer is no, there are variables that need to be considered and addressed with the (ship type multiplier) formula for this faction ship.

There are no Blueprint Originals available to purchase like any other standard T1 Frigate. An Astero 1 run Blueprint Copy can only be purchased through the Sisters of Eve factions through their Loyalty Points store. You must gain enough Loyalty Points for this specific faction in order to purchase this ship or blueprint; any route you take to gain the Loyalty Point benchmark will take time. In addition to the Loyalty Points requirement, an ISK rate is added on to the Loyalty Point store purchase.

If a developer would take some time to analyze a tangible value for Loyalty points we can add this new variable to the (ship type multiplier) pool. Furthermore we need to add the ISK value for said ship blueprint to the (ship type multiplier) equation. A simplified variant of this formula might look something like this:

Scale to be measured by developers:
Loyalty Points Benchmark (LPB) = Difficulty Scale (0.10-0.50)

We use this new benchmark to create a new dynamic and fair insurance formula:

Faction Ship Insurance Scale =
((value of the material cost according to the index) * (percentage of insurance coverage) + (BPC Price)) * ((LPB + (ship type multiplyer))

Below are working examples of how the Astero insurance scale payout would look using this new formula with varies difficulty factors implemented *Note:(material cost where calculated via Singular test server data)*:

((value of the material cost according to the index(490,923) * (percentage of insurance coverage(100)) + (BPC Price(15,000,000) ) * ((LPB(0.25) + (ship type multiplyer(1))) = 80,115,375

((value of the material cost according to the index(490,923) * (percentage of insurance coverage(100)) + (BPC Price(15,000,000) ) * ((LPB(0.20) + (ship type multiplyer(1))) = 76,910,760

((value of the material cost according to the index(490,923) * (percentage of insurance coverage(100)) + (BPC Price(15,000,000) ) * ((LPB(0.15) + (ship type multiplyer(1))) = 73,706,145

((value of the material cost according to the index(490,923) * (percentage of insurance coverage(100)) + (BPC Price(15,000,000) ) * ((LPB(0.10) + (ship type multiplyer(1))) = 70,501,530

As a developer if you want to add "risk factor" to the formula for any faction ship, simply scale down the (ship type multiplyer):

((value of the material cost according to the index(490,923) * (percentage of insurance coverage(100)) + (BPC Price(15,000,000) ) * ((LPB(0.25) + (ship type multiplyer(0.50))) = 48,069,225

End of post 1 of 2
Dr Jeck
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2015-05-23 02:05:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Jeck
Lets try to look deeper at the current Astero insurance formula to see how the mechanics are currently working for it. We will use the material price data available on Singular server to calculate the (value of the ship according to the index).

CCP Formula = (value of the ship according to the index) * (percentage of insurance coverage) * (ship type multiplyer)

Astero: (490,923) * (100) * (0.01) = 490,923

This ship is using the same (ship type multiplyer) as a T1 Amarr Punisher Roll

Punisher: (498,092) * (100) * (0.01) = 498,092

Lets compare these two ships acquisition difficulty using a simplified Blueprint perspective:

A 1 run Blueprint Copy of the Astero costs 30k LP + 15 mil isk. It is only available to purchase through the Sisters of Eve factions. There are no Astero blueprint originals available in-game.

An infinite run Blueprint Original for the Punisher cost 2.9 mil isk. It can be purchased at varies stations trough New Eden with no requirements / standings or Loyalty points.

Lets evaluate lose and recovery difficulty for these T1 Frigate ships:

If you lose an Astero you will receive 490,923 isk if you purchased 100% insurance. You can buy an Astero on the market place for 70mil isk (market average at time of posting this according to eve-central data). As an alternative you can grind the Loyalty Points needed to buy another 1 run Blueprint Copy + another 15mil isk + cost of materials to build. You can buy an Astero through the Sisters of Eve LP store for 100k LP + 10mil isk. There is an in-game item to trade in to the Sisters of Eve faction LP store for an Astero which is called a Rogue Drone 46-X Nexus Chip. The current market value for said item is 70m isk (according to eve-central data at the time of posting this). The Rogue Drone 46-X Nexus Chip is a random item drop that can be looted from combat sites that spawn Sentient Rouge Drones.

If you lose a Punisher you will receive 498,092 isk if you purchased 100% insurance. You can buy a Punisher on the market place for 450,00 isk (market average at time of posting this according to eve-central data). As an alternative you can run another copy of an infinite run blueprint original + cost of materials to build.

To sum this post up, we need a closer analysis of the (ship type multiplyer) of the insurance formula specifically for "Faction Ships". As it stands now with the current mechanics, the "risk factor" is far too steep and unbalanced. A solid work around solution would be:

Scale to be measured by developers:
Loyalty Points Benchmark (LPB) = Difficulty Scale (0.10-0.50)

We use this new benchmark to create a new dynamic and fair insurance formula:

Faction Ship Insurance Scale =
((value of the material cost according to the index) * (percentage of insurance coverage) + (BPC Price)) * ((LPB + (ship type multiplyer))

Below is a working example of how the Astero insurance scale payout would look using this new formula with a difficulty factor implemented *Note:(material cost where calculated via Singular test server data)*:

((value of the material cost according to the index(490,923) * (percentage of insurance coverage(100)) + (BPC Price(15,000,000) ) * ((LPB(0.25) + (ship type multiplyer(1))) = 80,115,375

As a developer if you want to add "risk factor" to the formula for any faction ship, simply scale down the (ship type multiplyer):

((value of the material cost according to the index(490,923) * (percentage of insurance coverage(100)) + (BPC Price(15,000,000) ) * ((LPB(0.25) + (ship type multiplyer(0.50))) = 48,069,225

I would appreciate if a member of CCP post some form of acknowledgment to this thread. I could write the in-game code needed to implement this formula or similar variant as open source free of charge.

Warm Regards,
Dr Jeck


End of post 2/2
MechaJeb Kerman
MechaJeb Kerman's Thrasher Fund
Novus Ordo.
#6 - 2015-05-23 03:25:06 UTC  |  Edited by: MechaJeb Kerman
^ Don't forget that you can get all SoE ship BPC's in exchange for Nexus chips that drop from Sentient drones. I got my first Astero from a Haunted Yard in hi sec, in my second week of playing, so they aren't really that hard to come by.

Even if you can't find one, and have to buy it it's still only like 150m fitted, so you'll earn it back in 3-10 Null/WH relic sites, and as Asteros are so tough and cloaky, you'll most likely survive doing them.

If you still don't want to risk it, well then just use a Magnate, you can do perfectly fine without the 5 extra virus strength, just learn how to play the mini-game properly.

Edit, sent you an EvE mail ingame.

I'll crudely Photoshop an image of Helen Thomas onto a picture of your choosing for 30m. PM me.
Dr Jeck
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2015-05-23 05:16:38 UTC
MechaJeb Kerman I appreciate your perspective on this issue as an "Experienced" pilot of New Eden.

I appreciate the private message you sent as well.

I have heard this statement repeated in various forms by several "Experienced" pilots:
"Don't fly what you can't afford to lose"

If you refer back to the original posting, this ship has no tooltip warnings in ISIS or anywhere within the game that will warn players about its insurance coverage gap prior to purchasing it.

You referenced a Rogue Drone Nexus Chip in your post. The in-game item to trade in to the Sisters of Eve faction for an Astero is called a Rogue Drone 46-X Nexus Chip. The current market value for said item is 70m isk (according to eve-central data at the time of posting this). I will add this variable to my previous post however its inclusion does not change the outcome; in fact it further elaborates on the mechanics issue.

You mentioned a 5% virus strength bonus in your post. Here is a list of Astero ship trait bonuses pertaining to exploration:

100% reduction in Cloaking Devices CPU requirement
37.5% bonus to Core and Combat Scanner Probe strength
10+ bonus to Relic and Data Analyzer virus strength
Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 15 seconds

Back to the underlying issue at hand. There is an obvious insurance gap balancing issue with this faction ship. To keep this post on the topic of the Astero, I am not mentioning the other ships this broken mechanic effects. In order to evaluation this issue and come to a fair and balanced conclusion you will need to remove the "Experienced" factor from its equation as it has no relevance.
Emilia Zapata
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8 - 2015-05-23 11:30:14 UTC
I agree with insurance not being very useful on fation ships, however I disagree with your implicit assumption that insurance is necessary or even desirable for the use case you specified.
If you want to use an Astero for exploration in highsec, there is next to no chance of losing it. Any amount paid for insurance would be a waste of money.

Insurance is useful for PVP, in highsec PVE, especially in exploration, you should not be losing ships at a high enough rate to make insurance worthwhile, even if cost and payout were in a reasonable relation to its price.
Jeven HouseBenyo
Vanity Thy Name Is
#9 - 2015-05-23 17:32:31 UTC
Going to have to respectfully disagree with Emilia on insurance being nearly pointless in Highsec. As someone that flies around both high and low, sometimes in faction ships, I too have noticed a very disheartening insurance gap. While in my personal use fleet the Astero Insurance is the worst offender, it's not alone with a bad insurance return on a faction ship. Since highsec is really not as 'safe' as Emilia is hinting at, I agree that CCP should give faction ship insurance return rates a closer look.

Though a thrasher is technically a 'larger' ship my reasoning says I shouldn't get more for losing one of them than the Astero due to overall costs, whether through time spend getting SoE LPs, enough ISK for either the ship or the 1 run BPC, etc. Why? Ease of replacement, no matter if you go the route of assembling from a BPO, BPC, or outright buying a new one from Regional Market. With a BPO I could crank out thrashers for sale all day long. The same cannot be said of those Asteros. The bars are set higher to get one, so logic says the insurance payout should rise to the same bar level for faction ships.

Just my two wisdom pennies, user mileage will vary.

>Jeven

Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.

'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.

Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.

Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P

No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.