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[Carnyx] Sentry Drone Adjustments

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Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#361 - 2015-05-23 01:32:35 UTC
So what is going to happen when the zergs move to the next ship and zerg everyone down. Nerf that ship?

Any ship with enough players will seem OP.....or in an arena where ships cant fly out of range.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#362 - 2015-05-23 02:15:24 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:
So what is going to happen when the zergs move to the next ship and zerg everyone down. Nerf that ship?


Not unless that ship has a battleship tank, battleship dps (with capless, immune to ewar guns), more than battleship projection, cruiser sig radius, fits an oversized prop mod, and a resist profile that literally defines the rest of the ship meta.


Quote:

Any ship with enough players will seem OP.....or in an arena where ships cant fly out of range.


Cry more about other people being allowed to have friends.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#363 - 2015-05-23 02:16:56 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:
So what is going to happen when the zergs move to the next ship and zerg everyone down. Nerf that ship?

Any ship with enough players will seem OP.....or in an arena where ships cant fly out of range.


If every group is using the same ship, that's a pretty good sign that ship is out of balance, so pretty much yes.
The ideal situation is that all the groups end up using different fleets and swapping doctrines in & out regularly as enemy doctrines change to try and find the ideal counter without being countered themselves.
As that indicates every ship is doing well.

On the topic of sentry Nerfs, why not change their resolution to 400? As appropriate for BS sized weapons which their DPS and range projection of said DPS indicate they are. Heavies can stay at 125 or meet on the middle at 250 or something to give them an advantage over sentries to make up for travel time. And we can see how that changes things.
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#364 - 2015-05-23 02:34:53 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:
So what is going to happen when the zergs move to the next ship and zerg everyone down. Nerf that ship?

Any ship with enough players will seem OP.....or in an arena where ships cant fly out of range.


If every group is using the same ship, that's a pretty good sign that ship is out of balance, so pretty much yes.
The ideal situation is that all the groups end up using different fleets and swapping doctrines in & out regularly as enemy doctrines change to try and find the ideal counter without being countered themselves.
As that indicates every ship is doing well.

On the topic of sentry Nerfs, why not change their resolution to 400? As appropriate for BS sized weapons which their DPS and range projection of said DPS indicate they are. Heavies can stay at 125 or meet on the middle at 250 or something to give them an advantage over sentries to make up for travel time. And we can see how that changes things.



Just give the Ishtar the same bandwidth as the Stratios and be done with the drama.
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#365 - 2015-05-23 03:22:30 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:
Ok. Firstly: look at my corp history, I left the Swarm last week. Goon PVE Ishtars run heavy drones, Wasps to be specific, as they eat frigate rats for breakfast, which Wardens can't do, unless they are 70km away from the rat who has 0 transversal.

I couldn't care less if you were a random gewn forum alt, or a random gullible person.
Just don't crap on my ears, we all know the Ishtar is not close to the spread propagewnda wants us to believe.

Miner Hottie wrote:
There are carriers and vindis and Rattlesnakes ratting in Deklein, but they are idiots. You get nearly as good a performance from a T2 Wasp equipped ishtar as a carrier, for far less risk.

Now I really wonder who's an idiot here. You really suck at ratting if your rattle/carrier is not nearly twice as efficient as the Ishtar, whatever drones it's using. But then again, you're a gewn, you just lie. And considering that in post-Phoebe world just about the only risk for a carrier is wormholes, which are controllable, you lied again.

Miner Hottie wrote:
Finally, you need to drop the mental conditioning which says goons always lie. They only usually lie and you won't find much lying from them in these threads. Freaking need chribba to come in and mine all this tinfoil. Finally, seeing the Ishtar nerfed to the pack with the other HAC's would make me very happy. Drone doctrines aren't that great and encourage a pretty limited skill amongst all the players.

You lied like every gewn so far. You need to drop the mental condition which makes you lie first.
"In these threads" there is only one truth - all but gewns are getting a nerfbat... again. Whoever says otherwise - lies. Just like you.


Basil. You are the reason goons thrive. You are so deluded and blinded by your own self worth and ability, you are a case study in the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Nerf Ishtars, goons will change doctrines without a care in the world.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#366 - 2015-05-23 03:51:40 UTC
I fly everything. I am the meta. MUAHAHAHAHA
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#367 - 2015-05-23 04:02:19 UTC
Miner Hottie wrote:


you are a case study in the Dunning-Kruger effect.



I will have to remember that one!

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#368 - 2015-05-23 04:52:12 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:


you are a case study in the Dunning-Kruger effect.



I will have to remember that one!


Be my guest. Big smile

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
DEFANDER
CSV - Like in politics - rules apply differently
#369 - 2015-05-23 07:10:47 UTC
Hey there,

Like everyone else already posted, this will **** up the other hulls, especially for PvE content.

No more sentries on Rattlesnakes if this goes live.
For now you need like 2 Tracking links on a rattlesnake to be able to track ****.

Why are you forcing everyone into using heavy drones?


Your want a way to "FIX" this entire **** storm ?

Make it like this.

When a ship deploys sentries - make it so that it remains STATIONARY.

Just like when using a cyno.

Leave the sentries like they are, just don't allow the ships fielding them to move.

That will actually make the "theorycrafters" in the big blocks think instead of just going "ohh that so op.. all use that"
Shun Makoto
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#370 - 2015-05-23 12:27:13 UTC

Remove Sentry bonus from Ishtar
Make Sentries only useful for 300m sig radius and up (can hit most Battlecruisers and can still hit Battlehsips)

Additional thought:

Outside a certain range from your Sentry drones they either become inactive and won't shoot anything or stop accepting commands

Kaalakiota-Kaatso Taokeruu Kaltiovon ArK. (Kalaakiota Business Research Corporation)

Head of Security

...................................

Kaalakiota Corporation

Patriot Faction
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#371 - 2015-05-23 12:37:39 UTC
DEFANDER wrote:
Hey there,

Like everyone else already posted, this will **** up the other hulls, especially for PvE content.

No more sentries on Rattlesnakes if this goes live.
For now you need like 2 Tracking links on a rattlesnake to be able to track ****.

Why are you forcing everyone into using heavy drones?


Your want a way to "FIX" this entire **** storm ?

Make it like this.

When a ship deploys sentries - make it so that it remains STATIONARY.

Just like when using a cyno.

Leave the sentries like they are, just don't allow the ships fielding them to move.

That will actually make the "theorycrafters" in the big blocks think instead of just going "ohh that so op.. all use that"

Speaking of, heavies really could use a bit of an upward nudge.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#372 - 2015-05-23 12:41:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Speaking of, heavies really could use a bit of an upward nudge.


Buff them even more? Heavies already wreck AB'ing frigates. I fail to see how you can want much more of them. Drones need a major nerf since the last drone tracking iteration, currently all drones got stupid good damage output and application.

That said after benchng machs for hole rolling and pretty much any ship removed from the hangar that isn't a droneboat for reasons.
Celgar Thurn
Department 10
#373 - 2015-05-23 14:25:29 UTC
The main problem seems to be usage of sentry drones by the Ishtar. To my mind sentry drones are a battleship weapon so would it not make much more sense to stop Ishtars using sentry drones at all Question

At a glance the proposed changes to the Garde sentry drones seem very excessive.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#374 - 2015-05-23 20:35:21 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Lord LazyGhost wrote:
Jessica Danikov wrote:
How about returning drones to the traditional meta where both the speed of the attacker and the defender play into tracking and damage application? The fact that drone boats enjoy full mobility without any penalty to damage application has always been disproportionately advantageous.

The fix is simple- have sentry drones be aimed by the hull, e.g. make the tracking relative to the hull. This will improve tracking in certain circumstances, while reducing it in many others, often proportional to any defensive bonuses incurred through piloting. Fundamentally, piloting will play a bigger part in sentry drone pilots lives rather than sentry drones being easy mode and thus favoured for nerfs into the ground.


got to remmber unlike other ships drones can loose all their dammage if killed


Got to remember unlike the other turret ships, drones track their targets irrespective of the velocity, range, or direction of the host ship, and losing target lock does not nullify damage dealt.

Capless, omni-damage weapons systems to boot. Roll

missiles?

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#375 - 2015-05-23 21:26:37 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Lord LazyGhost wrote:
Jessica Danikov wrote:
How about returning drones to the traditional meta where both the speed of the attacker and the defender play into tracking and damage application? The fact that drone boats enjoy full mobility without any penalty to damage application has always been disproportionately advantageous.

The fix is simple- have sentry drones be aimed by the hull, e.g. make the tracking relative to the hull. This will improve tracking in certain circumstances, while reducing it in many others, often proportional to any defensive bonuses incurred through piloting. Fundamentally, piloting will play a bigger part in sentry drone pilots lives rather than sentry drones being easy mode and thus favoured for nerfs into the ground.


got to remmber unlike other ships drones can loose all their dammage if killed


Got to remember unlike the other turret ships, drones track their targets irrespective of the velocity, range, or direction of the host ship, and losing target lock does not nullify damage dealt.

Capless, omni-damage weapons systems to boot. Roll

missiles?

Even better than Missiles.. FOF missiles do **** all for damage vs normal. Also you still need to be in range to use missiles, given this is a Cruiser, we need do compare it vs Heavy/Heavy Assault missiles, and in both cases the control range alone on a hull like the Ishtar blows away the ranges a missile cruiser can put down..

Still, in the end, as I've said before, it's the Ishtar's range and bonuses to Sentries that make it broken. The Ishtar is what needs to be rebalanced. Other sentry boats, even Domi's don't come close.
James Zimmer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#376 - 2015-05-23 22:00:05 UTC
As some have alluded to, and some may have said directly (sorry, not going to read 19 pages) I'm not sure sentries are the problem. The issue is that "drone boats" are much more than just drone boats; they're combat ships that have a second ship's worth of DPS ready to go in their drone bays. Let's do a quick comparison between the strongest T1 cruiser in the game (Vexor), and that other Gallente cruiser (Thorax).

Before you put drones into the equation, they are remarkably similar when it comes potential damage output. The Vexor gets 4 bonused hybrid turrets, and the Thorax gets 5. The difference may be even smaller when you consider powergrid into the equation. Both ships are somewhat weak when it comes to PG, and though I haven't tested it, I imagine it may be possible to fit larger guns on the Vexor, since you only need PG for 4 of them.

Now let's bring drones into the equation. A Thorax can use a full set of unbonused medium drones, but that leaves it frighteningly unprepared for fast tackle, so in reality, it will probably go with a set of lights and a set of ECM drones. The most conservative Vexor that you are ever likely to see, that prioritizes projection over DPS, will probably have a full set of massively bonused medium drones. Another valid setup is a max damage setup, with 2 heavies, 2 mediums and 1 light. This still leaves it with enough drone bay capacity to field a flight of lights to chase away fast tackle, and a set of ECM drones to get out of dodge.

The end result is a ship that competes with battleships for raw damage output. It is so OP when it comes to DPS, that it can afford to throw away nearly a Thorax's worth of blasters and toss in nuets instead, making it a peerless T1 cap warefare cruiser, as well as a very good damage dealer. More or less, it's 2 ships in 1 hull. While I use the Vexor as an example, the problem exists with the Tristan, all the way up to the Dominix.

Instead of nerfing the drones, which will hurt a lot of ships that really don't need a nerf, let's nerf the ships by giving them fewer high slots or less powergrid. The Arbitrator, with its poor powergrid, is a fine example of a drone boat that can easily be used effectively, but also doesn't break the game.
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#377 - 2015-05-23 23:00:41 UTC
Personally I don't see the Vexor or Domi as OP.. The Ishtar is. It's in essence a Domi DPS and Projection, in a Vexor sized ship, with T2 Tank, oh and a massive range bonus so it can control drones from almost anywhere on the grid depending on the setup. It's insane. At least the other ships have compamises.. a Vexor wields weaker drones, a Domi is a slow space potato, but the Ishtar is all pro's no con's.. And rather than address it, you decide to make EVERY Ship that can field a flight of Sentries, bonused or otherwise, suffer. The only other hull that you can argue Sentries are OP on is the Domi, so lets ignore that. Name one other hull that needs them nerfed or where they will be more balanced with a loss of DPS and projection? Armageddon? Nope. Rattlesnake? Nope. Stratios, Nestor, Hyperion, Mach's, and every other BS that has 100+mb bandwidth.. NOPE.

Address the actual issue, don't punish everything else because you don't want to deal with the Ishtar. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, what you're doing is Nerfing Web's because of Vindi's, Neuts because of Bhaalgorns.. You're nerfing the weapon system to bring a Bonused hull in Line. It's backwards. You dialback the Bonus.. Then, and ONLY Then, if the weapons are the issue, do you look at changing the weapon.

All this change does is mean the ONLY Viable Sentry Boats are Ishtars and Domi's. Without the bonuses, they are crap. Oh, and they will still be just as widely used because you can still drop them from an Ishtar, Kite away 100+km, and keep killing stuff. Congrats.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#378 - 2015-05-23 23:05:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
@ james zimmer

that neatly fits in with my sig of -3 slots for ALL droneboats, this should include gurista ships the dps on those ships is absurd

i tried too quote your post but the site won't let me do quotes atm for some reason, i keep getting server something ..... don't know if other people are having this issue, never used too happen..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#379 - 2015-05-23 23:30:35 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:
So what is going to happen when the zergs move to the next ship and zerg everyone down. Nerf that ship?

Any ship with enough players will seem OP.....or in an arena where ships cant fly out of range.


If every group is using the same ship, that's a pretty good sign that ship is out of balance, so pretty much yes.
The ideal situation is that all the groups end up using different fleets and swapping doctrines in & out regularly as enemy doctrines change to try and find the ideal counter without being countered themselves.
As that indicates every ship is doing well.

Will not happen.
1) skills. You cannot just take any ship and make fleet of them. You need players with skills for ship+fit.
2) fits and strategy. Not every player can make good fits and good strategies. As result most of them just take fits from killboards and strategies from videos, etc...

As result you won't see lots of completely different fleets using different strategies. You can have good variability in solo or small scale but not for big fleets.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Casivek Andrard
True Drone Expanse
What Could Possibly Go Wr0ng
#380 - 2015-05-23 23:36:49 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:
So what is going to happen when the zergs move to the next ship and zerg everyone down. Nerf that ship?

Any ship with enough players will seem OP.....or in an arena where ships cant fly out of range.


If every group is using the same ship, that's a pretty good sign that ship is out of balance, so pretty much yes.
The ideal situation is that all the groups end up using different fleets and swapping doctrines in & out regularly as enemy doctrines change to try and find the ideal counter without being countered themselves.
As that indicates every ship is doing well.

Will not happen.
1) skills. You cannot just take any ship and make fleet of them. You need players with skills for ship+fit.
2) fits and strategy. Not every player can make good fits and good strategies. As result most of them just take fits from killboards and strategies from videos, etc...

As result you won't see lots of completely different fleets using different strategies. You can have good variability in solo or small scale but not for big fleets.


Aka Ishtar in an N+1