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[Carnyx] Sentry Drone Adjustments

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Aplysia Vejun
Children of Agasul
#341 - 2015-05-22 19:08:27 UTC
James Baboli wrote:

can literally drop a 100mn AB into most shield ishtar setups in place of a 10mn micro without any change.
Can make 100mn AB and 1600 plate work on the same cruiser, something nothing only it and t3s can do.

I'm really curious. How?
1600mm plate (tungsten): 500 mw
100mn experimental AB: 625mw
PW( Skill at V): 975
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#342 - 2015-05-22 19:08:51 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
Maximum Bandwidth by base hull and core design role

Is a Drone Boat
Frigate/Destroyer - 25
Cruiser/BC - 50
Battleship - 125


Not a Drone Boat
Frigate/Destroyer - 10
Cruiser/BC - 25
Battleship - 50


Drone boats then can be diversified by any applied bonus
HP, Tracking, Damage, MWD Speed, Optimal/Fall-off etc


if you gave Give the Dominix a HP, Tracking & MWD bonus, and the Navy version a optimal/fall-off bonus & Damage bonus
one would be better with heavies, the other with sentries.

the whole sentry-Ishtar meta becomes moot as it would no longer be possible

The Ishtar would no longer be used for fleets, at all. As you remove the only ranged drone. It is not as simple as removing sentries, you have to replace it with something or you have changed they ships very nature.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#343 - 2015-05-22 19:29:18 UTC
Aplysia Vejun wrote:
James Baboli wrote:

can literally drop a 100mn AB into most shield ishtar setups in place of a 10mn micro without any change.
Can make 100mn AB and 1600 plate work on the same cruiser, something nothing only it and t3s can do.

I'm really curious. How?
1600mm plate (tungsten): 500 mw
100mn experimental AB: 625mw
PW( Skill at V): 975



Couple of ancils. It's doable, it's not a great fit, shield is probably better.

[Ishtar, Armor Example]
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Dark Blood Armor Explosive Hardener
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Experimental 100MN Afterburner I
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

Bouncer II x5



Pretty tanky, 43k EHP, 1k M/S unscramable so mitigating a lot @145 sig
Deralt Mangeiri
Drunk Squad
#344 - 2015-05-22 19:29:55 UTC
как вы заели доламывать то что работает, чинить нечего чтоли ?
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#345 - 2015-05-22 19:31:10 UTC
Sticky wizzleteats wrote:
Also instead of taking sentries away from drone boats, instead reduce their bandwidth to 100. I've 4 drones
They did the equivalent to the Ishtar already.

Ishtar (125MB): 5 sentries x 25% damage bonus = 6.25 sentries.
Myrmidon (100MB): 4 sentries x 50% damage bonus = 6 sentries.

There is a lot more to the issue than this.
punch monke
East Coast Grass Growers Association
#346 - 2015-05-22 19:36:09 UTC
If sentries were the only issue and are so overpowered, why are the other ships list by others here not overpowered. The he Ishtar has bonuses to range dps, and with mods they can hit to 100k while being nowhere close to you, good speed, t2 resist, low sig, cap stability, no risk due to extreme ranges that comes with bouncers, and curators. Please fix the **** hull, not a blanket nerf to all drone ships. Also nerfing the garde that much will make it largely unusable regardless of the falloff. Bouncers and curators will be the only sentries worth using which you stated is getting main problem with them now.

Please also change the warden. Extreme drone range, with **** dps is not good for hardly any application.
Valterra Craven
#347 - 2015-05-22 20:48:19 UTC
Sticky wizzleteats wrote:


I disagree Stealth bombers have not been balanced....


You can disagree all you want, but they have been balanced for their capabilities.

Sticky wizzleteats wrote:

they don't decloak each other....


Because if they did, they'd be totally useless.

Sticky wizzleteats wrote:

And bombs are op when 100 people in wave after wave of bombers can hit you controled by on person squad warping people, and they just have to fire the bomb when told.


And yet, that's still less op then drone DELEGATION. Or did you forget that one person could literally control a ton of drones whereas with bombs people actually have to fire them and target things themselves (ala torps).

Sticky wizzleteats wrote:

Also instead of taking sentries away from drone boats, instead reduce their bandwidth to 100. I've 4 drones


Doesn't address their ranges or anything else about the fits on the ishtar that make them overpowered.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#348 - 2015-05-22 20:55:55 UTC
Stealth bombers were balanced by the ban on input broadcasting.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#349 - 2015-05-22 21:41:16 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tyr Dolorem wrote:
Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem?

Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both.


Sentries need to be balanced with battleship hulls in mind, ie mostly just their damage application to small targets. If you try to balance them so cruisers can use full flights of them it's just never going to work.

Ishtar/VNI should not be able to field full flights of heavies OR sentries, no point blaming players or as you put it 'the meta' when you put battleship dps with buffs to tracking on a cruiser hull of course people are going to abuse it.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#350 - 2015-05-22 21:43:30 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Stealth bombers were balanced by the ban on input broadcasting.


This, nevermind the fact that talking about stealth bombers is wildly off topic.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#351 - 2015-05-22 21:59:42 UTC
Dentia Caecus wrote:
These vessels do not need a nerf at the present time. Fozzie mentioned some of these vessels in his post, but where is the data to support his conclusions, empirical or otherwise. While possible, I would be surprised to learn that fleets of VNI's or Armageddons are out there destroying every fleet encountered. Is it possible? Yes. Likely? No. Are the above hulls useful for other reasons, including, but not limited to mainline pve, skirmish pvp and roles within large pvp with their respective drone bonus intact? Yes.

The big offender here is the Ishtar. I happen to love the vessel but I both see and appreciate the bigger picture: Do not nerf an entire weapons system when the overwhelming problem is one **** hull.

Does the community always get it right? No, we don't. But in this instance a cacophony of voices are presenting well reasoned arguments why Fozzie and his team made a mistake. This situation is reminiscent of f the jump changes as applied to JF's. Former CCP Greyscale listened to the community, mea culpa-ed and acted accordingly. I hope Fozzie does the same. I sincerely doubt it, but I have hope.



The VNI is way out of line compared to other navy cruisers, here's the number of kills for each navy cruiser in April 2015:

Vexor Navy Issue: 15 770

Exequror Navy Issue: 1 734

Caracal Navy Issue: 689

Osprey Navy Issue: 695

Scythe Fleet Issue: 3 695

Stabber Fleet Issue: 3 242

Navy Omen: 9 992

Augoror Navy Issue: 5 356



So the Navy Vexor is getting nearly 23 times more kills than a Navy Caracal
Casivek Andrard
True Drone Expanse
What Could Possibly Go Wr0ng
#352 - 2015-05-22 22:13:22 UTC
All this does it make me want to use the Ishtar more so as any other ship that uses sentries without the double bonus is now ****.

Thus N+1 is all that will happen till the hull NOT drone is nurfed.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#353 - 2015-05-22 23:32:53 UTC
Did someone managed to write a farewell song for Sentry Dominix? If not i'll give a PLEX to composer.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#354 - 2015-05-22 23:38:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiddle Jr
double post

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#355 - 2015-05-22 23:54:41 UTC
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Did someone managed to write a farewell song for Sentry Dominix? If not i'll give a PLEX to composer.


Oh Dominix, the shelf the shelf is calling.
From gate to gate, or at zero at the sun.
Your days are gone, no longer are you useful.
The Ishtar is the last remaining one.

Will you come back, when buffed a time or two?
Or when drones are finally reworked?
I'll be here waiting, although I may have short sold you.
Oh Dominix, oh Dominix you make me blue.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Casivek Andrard
True Drone Expanse
What Could Possibly Go Wr0ng
#356 - 2015-05-23 00:00:31 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Did someone managed to write a farewell song for Sentry Dominix? If not i'll give a PLEX to composer.


Oh Dominix, the shelf the shelf is calling.
From gate to gate, or at zero at the sun.
Your days are gone, no longer are you useful.
The Ishtar is the last remaining one.

Will you come back, when buffed a time or two?
Or when drones are finally reworked?
I'll be here waiting, although I may have short sold you.
Oh Dominix, oh Dominix you make me blue.



Shame how true it is and bravo.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#357 - 2015-05-23 00:07:02 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tyr Dolorem wrote:
Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem?

Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both.


Sentries need to be balanced with battleship hulls in mind, ie mostly just their damage application to small targets. If you try to balance them so cruisers can use full flights of them it's just never going to work.

Ishtar/VNI should not be able to field full flights of heavies OR sentries, no point blaming players or as you put it 'the meta' when you put battleship dps with buffs to tracking on a cruiser hull of course people are going to abuse it.


Actually I think that cruisers should get heavies with bonuses on them in specific hulls. They should not get bonuses on sentries though for tracking. This would allow pve boats to fit accordingly if they wanted better sentry tracking or just use raw sentries for some ranged power, but well bonused mediums and heavies should be the realm of cruisers/battlecruisers (with some bc's like the eos being able to field sentries with bonuses).
Casivek Andrard
True Drone Expanse
What Could Possibly Go Wr0ng
#358 - 2015-05-23 00:10:12 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tyr Dolorem wrote:
Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem?

Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both.


Sentries need to be balanced with battleship hulls in mind, ie mostly just their damage application to small targets. If you try to balance them so cruisers can use full flights of them it's just never going to work.

Ishtar/VNI should not be able to field full flights of heavies OR sentries, no point blaming players or as you put it 'the meta' when you put battleship dps with buffs to tracking on a cruiser hull of course people are going to abuse it.


Actually I think that cruisers should get heavies with bonuses on them in specific hulls. They should not get bonuses on sentries though for tracking. This would allow pve boats to fit accordingly if they wanted better sentry tracking or just use raw sentries for some ranged power, but well bonused mediums and heavies should be the realm of cruisers/battlecruisers (with some bc's like the eos being able to field sentries with bonuses).


That requires CCP to actually think though something they refuse to do half the time, besides the art team.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#359 - 2015-05-23 00:21:47 UTC
Aplysia Vejun wrote:
James Baboli wrote:

can literally drop a 100mn AB into most shield ishtar setups in place of a 10mn micro without any change.
Can make 100mn AB and 1600 plate work on the same cruiser, something nothing only it and t3s can do.

I'm really curious. How?
1600mm plate (tungsten): 500 mw
100mn experimental AB: 625mw
PW( Skill at V): 975

Never said it was easy.
https://o.smium.org/loadout/private/31215/2037433194168451072
RCU2 + PG 3% gets it there with an m4 plate, 4-6% and/or a rig quickly gives you room for other fittings which take up some PG. can drop implant if you go storyline on the plate. Will be much easier post carnyx release though as
the tungsten plate + compact 100mn AB gives us
480+ 563 = 943, which means any PG mod or implant lets you get enough space to fill slots with a few things that use more than 1PG.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#360 - 2015-05-23 00:33:27 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Did someone managed to write a farewell song for Sentry Dominix? If not i'll give a PLEX to composer.


Oh Dominix, the shelf the shelf is calling.
From gate to gate, or at zero at the sun.
Your days are gone, no longer are you useful.
The Ishtar is the last remaining one.

Will you come back, when buffed a time or two?
Or when drones are finally reworked?
I'll be here waiting, although I may have short sold you.
Oh Dominix, oh Dominix you make me blue.


Scans much better as

Oh Dominix, the shelf the shelf is calling.
From gate to gate, or zero on the sun.
Your days are gone, no longer are ye useful.
tis true tis you the fozzie went and slay-ed.

Will you come back, when buffed a time or two?
Or when drones are finally reworked?
I'll be here in station waiting,
although I may have short sold you.
Oh Dominix, oh Dominix you make me blue.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp