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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Abolition and Faith
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Natheniel
Kurupt.
Sedition.
#101 - 2015-05-22 15:50:48 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Anyanka Funk wrote:
Slaves do not have free will. If they did, they would not be slaves.


Slaves have freedom of will. What they don't have is freedom of opportunity.

Tyrel Toov wrote:
Then how is it still a thing?


Because Holders use their best judgment in handling difficult subjects. Some slaves are too stubborn and hostile to be able to be managed with more proper methods.

The issue with it, is that there are some places in the empire where it is used too liberally.


If you state that vitoc is isn't better then the sansha use of implant control, why are you ok with it being used in any case?

"Life is as a storm, one must be prepared for the hardship and scorn. But with in this is a light, one for which we must fight. For hope is our weapon and our dreams are our shield. When fully armed we can not be felled from the field."
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#102 - 2015-05-22 15:52:58 UTC
Because people on drugs still have free will.
Natheniel
Kurupt.
Sedition.
#103 - 2015-05-22 15:55:04 UTC
So then you believe that vitoc use is acceptable

"Life is as a storm, one must be prepared for the hardship and scorn. But with in this is a light, one for which we must fight. For hope is our weapon and our dreams are our shield. When fully armed we can not be felled from the field."
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#104 - 2015-05-22 16:05:16 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Because people on drugs still have free will.

You are surprisingly ignorant of the effects of addiction, ain't you?

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#105 - 2015-05-22 16:09:34 UTC
I am quite aware of the effects of addiction.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#106 - 2015-05-22 16:16:51 UTC
Then you know that free will goes right out the window. If I were to give you a dose of vitoc, I bet I could have you denounce your God just to get your next fix.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Anyanka Funk
Doomheim
#107 - 2015-05-22 16:25:55 UTC
Tyrel Toov wrote:
Then you know that free will goes right out the window. If I were to give you a dose of vitoc, I bet I could have you denounce your God just to get your next fix.

How many billions do I have to pay for this to happen?
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#108 - 2015-05-22 16:26:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Tyrel Toov wrote:
Then you know that free will goes right out the window. If I were to give you a dose of vitoc, I bet I could have you denounce your God just to get your next fix.


You are still mistaking freedom of will with freedom of opportunity. With vitoc you could maybe force me to lie to you, but you could not force me to abandon my faith. It is similar to traditional slave control because it can only force the person to perform an action, not change a belief. To change a belief requires the person to want to change it.

TCMCs, Nation implants, completely deny all free will. The person does not even exist anymore; their beliefs are determined only by the machine in their head.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#109 - 2015-05-22 16:43:39 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Tyrel Toov wrote:
Then you know that free will goes right out the window. If I were to give you a dose of vitoc, I bet I could have you denounce your God just to get your next fix.


You are still mistaking freedom of will with freedom of opportunity. With vitoc you could maybe force me to lie to you, but you could not force me to abandon my faith. It is similar to traditional slave control because it can only force the person to perform an action, not change a belief. To change a belief requires the person to want to change it.

TCMCs, Nation implants, completely deny all free will. The person does not even exist anymore; their beliefs are determined only by the machine in their head.

So how long do you think it would take to break you, till you have repeated the lie so much it becomes believable?

Anyanka Funk wrote:

How many billions do I have to pay for this to happen?

I won't do it for any amount. I'm not so shallow as to resort to that kind of behavior.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#110 - 2015-05-22 16:44:43 UTC
Natheniel wrote:
So then you believe that vitoc use is acceptable

Vitoc method is still debated in the Empire, so you won't get a precise answer to your question.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#111 - 2015-05-22 16:48:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Samira Kernher wrote:
TCMCs, Nation implants, completely deny all free will. The person does not even exist anymore; their beliefs are determined only by the machine in their head.

Um. Lt. Kernher? We should maybe draw a line between TCMC's, which I think the Khanid Kingdom uses, and Nation implants.

I know the Empire doesn't allow TCMC's, but ... if I remember, they do leave free will intact. They just sort of provide the subject a ... sort of reality-overlay. A slightly more pleasant reality to live in.

The idea still kind of makes me squirm, but it doesn't seem quite as ... intrusive?
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#112 - 2015-05-22 16:54:51 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
TCMCs, Nation implants, completely deny all free will. The person does not even exist anymore; their beliefs are determined only by the machine in their head.

Um. Lt. Kernher? We should maybe draw a line between TCMC's, which I think the Khanid Kingdom uses, and Nation implants.

I know the Empire doesn't allow TCMC's, but ... if I remember, they do leave free will intact. They just sort of provide the subject a ... sort of reality-overlay. A slightly more pleasant reality to live in.

The idea still kind of makes me squirm, but it doesn't seem quite as ... intrusive?

All of the aforementioned methods of subjugation strip the victims of their ability to make a rational, informed choice and are equally barbaric. A lesser evil is evil none the less.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#113 - 2015-05-22 17:07:01 UTC
Tyrel Toov wrote:
All of the aforementioned methods of subjugation strip the victims of their ability to make a rational, informed choice and are equally barbaric. A lesser evil is evil none the less.

Respectfully, Mr. Toov, that you'd hold something like that opinion was kind of a foregone conclusion.
Anyanka Funk
Doomheim
#114 - 2015-05-22 17:18:20 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Tyrel Toov wrote:
All of the aforementioned methods of subjugation strip the victims of their ability to make a rational, informed choice and are equally barbaric. A lesser evil is evil none the less.

Respectfully, Mr. Toov, that you'd hold something like that opinion was kind of a foregone conclusion.

That was not an opinion, it was was a true statement.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#115 - 2015-05-22 17:29:46 UTC
Anyanka Funk wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Tyrel Toov wrote:
All of the aforementioned methods of subjugation strip the victims of their ability to make a rational, informed choice and are equally barbaric. A lesser evil is evil none the less.

Respectfully, Mr. Toov, that you'd hold something like that opinion was kind of a foregone conclusion.

That was not an opinion, it was was a true statement.

Before ...

I used to challenge people to catch me an "inalienable human right" so I could mount it on my wall.

While I ... usually ... sort of try to be less harsh these days, my knowledge base is still essentially the same. So are a lot of my basic beliefs, I guess.

It doesn't seem to me that the universe shares your belief in an objective right and wrong, Ms. Funk.

Your opinion about Mr. Toov's opinion is, respectfully, just that.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#116 - 2015-05-22 17:38:06 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

Respectfully, Mr. Toov, that you'd hold something like that opinion was kind of a foregone conclusion.

There's hardly a comment in this thread that doesn't fit this statement.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#117 - 2015-05-22 17:58:37 UTC
Tyrel Toov wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:

Respectfully, Mr. Toov, that you'd hold something like that opinion was kind of a foregone conclusion.

There's hardly a comment in this thread that doesn't fit this statement.

Maybe that's true. The sides on this matter are pretty entrenched. But....

I mostly pointed it out because it's an area where nuance tends to get lost in a thick fog of highly-charged rhetoric (some of which might be usable as blaster ammunition if it were physical). The Amarr, with some exceptions, literally believe they've got a divine mandate to Reclaim humanity. Your own side, for some reason, seems to claim equivalent moral purpose, only without the divinity.

Labeling your own side as "good" and the other as "evil" is good for maintaining public support for a war, and I'm sure it makes it easier to pull the trigger, but it makes any resolution other than military victory ... sort of hard to come by, doesn't it?

One of the first things I read after coming to the Empire was the Pax Amarria. People tend to treat it as though it were sort of a missionary's version of the Amarrian scriptures, but it's actually much more interesting than that. It's an effort to move the Empire away from the idea of Reclaiming by the sword, and legitimize peaceful coexistence (and Reclaiming by nonviolent persuasion).

The Amarr do change. Have changed. Are changing. Positions are not static.

In this sort of environment, can you really afford to see no nuance in their positions, or your own?

If you can't get slavery banned within this generation, but can get Vitoc banned, or TCMC's, is that nothing?

Do you want an all-out war? We can do that. The Angels and Blooders (and Nation, which is a real problem), slavers all, can fight over whatever's left, after. What's more, Empress Jamyl has already demonstrated that she can damage the Republic economy and cause all sorts of social problems by giving you exactly what you ask for, even in part.

Is it really in your interests to be painting yourself into a rhetorical corner? Is it really in anyone's?
Anyanka Funk
Doomheim
#118 - 2015-05-22 18:08:45 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Anyanka Funk wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Tyrel Toov wrote:
All of the aforementioned methods of subjugation strip the victims of their ability to make a rational, informed choice and are equally barbaric. A lesser evil is evil none the less.

Respectfully, Mr. Toov, that you'd hold something like that opinion was kind of a foregone conclusion.

That was not an opinion, it was was a true statement.

Before ...

I used to challenge people to catch me an "inalienable human right" so I could mount it on my wall.

While I ... usually ... sort of try to be less harsh these days, my knowledge base is still essentially the same. So are a lot of my basic beliefs, I guess.

It doesn't seem to me that the universe shares your belief in an objective right and wrong, Ms. Funk.

Your opinion about Mr. Toov's opinion is, respectfully, just that.


I'm also stating a fact.
Natheniel
Kurupt.
Sedition.
#119 - 2015-05-22 18:10:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Natheniel
Aria - some times people need to meet the devil in order to know his name. If they don't want to see it, showing them again will not change anything. If anything humans are resilant. I believe in both sides to pull through this intact.

"Life is as a storm, one must be prepared for the hardship and scorn. But with in this is a light, one for which we must fight. For hope is our weapon and our dreams are our shield. When fully armed we can not be felled from the field."
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#120 - 2015-05-22 18:19:54 UTC
Anyanka Funk wrote:
I'm also stating a fact.

You keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.