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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Abolition and Faith
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Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#81 - 2015-05-22 14:56:27 UTC
Saede Riordan wrote:
Why does there need to be a reason?


Unless I misunderstand you entirely, you base a great majority of your philosophy and conviction on empirical observation of the cluster around you.

If that is true (and I beg your forgiveness if I am mistaken), then earnest observation of the cluster around you would suggest that most, if not all, things that occupy the realm in which we live have a purpose for their existence.

From the planets in a solar system to the smallest subatomic particle, everything has a purpose for its existence, no matter how mundane.

It is not hard to understand the belief that oneself must also possess a purpose for existence in light of the evidence surrounding us, is it?

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Natheniel
Kurupt.
Sedition.
#82 - 2015-05-22 14:58:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Natheniel
Frankly this entire situation is circular. The Amarr are the way they are because that is who they are, the minmitar at the same. Neither side will ever give that up and us even trying to convince one side or the other to is an exercise in futility.

Oddly enough though there is common ground to be had here (as much as that may offend some to hear). Both sides do what they do out of love.

The minmitar care deeply for their people, they wish them free and able to have more then they do. So they fight against those they see as harming their brothers and sisters.

The Amarr on the other hand do what they do out of love of God and their faith runs just as deep as the minmitar love of their people. They believe by enslaving these people they are saving them.

So no side can be classified as evil in their intentions. Misguided maybe but not evil. But as the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. The question here is which side will make it there first.

"Life is as a storm, one must be prepared for the hardship and scorn. But with in this is a light, one for which we must fight. For hope is our weapon and our dreams are our shield. When fully armed we can not be felled from the field."
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#83 - 2015-05-22 14:58:15 UTC
The problem, Lord Arcashi, is that your old method for bringing people to God is outdated in a Cluster where you are no longer the preeminent power.

When you could drop out of the stars onto planets of uncomprehending youngsters and simply pluck them from their old ways, the Reclaiming by sword could work but now? If you turned that strategy onto the Caldari or the Gallente or the Republic we would burn the very heart out of you.

I'm sure you know this. I know that you have no short-term plans for returning to forced reclaiming, beyond that permitted in the Warzone.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#84 - 2015-05-22 14:58:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Jili Tonari wrote:
The Caldari and Gallente need to realize that it's just a matter of time before Amarrr aims the Reclamation at them.

The Jove are dead. And if the Jove were a barrier to Amarr ambition, that barrier is gone.

Politics abhors a vacuum and with the Jove out of the picture, how long before the Empire starts thinking that they're the logical replacement for "top banana of the galaxy?"

Respectfully, Ms. Tonari, they kind of know already.

Some day, if House Sarum (and here I mean the Empress's family, not necessarily the Empress herself) got its way, we might see the Reclaiming of New Eden at swordpoint resume. Everybody understands that.

The Gallente Federation is at least as ideologically opposed to the Amarr as the Republic is, so they might pursue a serious war against the Amarr if they had strong odds of winning. But, that isn't likely to happen as long as the Caldari stand with the Amarr.

It's fair to say that the Caldari are aware of the Reclaiming, too. They just see the Federation as the greater and more immediate threat. Through Caldari eyes, Gallentean talk of human rights and the dignity of the individual, and their enthusiasm for spreading those ideas even (especially?) where they're not wanted, is the moral equivalent of the Reclaiming. The Caldari were part of the Federation. They know how democracy works when you're a permanent minority, and they have no intention of going back.

A lot of Caldari are aware of the potential threat from the Empire. I, personally, had to suffer a pretty total case of amnesia before I could tamp my fears down enough to actually come and live in Amarr space, among and alongside the Amarr. My former, very State-loyal self just never saw it as an option. The Caldari see the threat as long-term, though; both the State and Empire have larger worries than each other.

Add in a little bit of traditional State pride and jingoism, and the basic State attitude to the possibility of Imperial invasion is, "Let them try!"

They might even be about as prepared as they think they are; The Citadel isn't named that for no reason.

Regardless, the Caldari won't be the first to betray their agreements, explicit or tacit, with the Empire. Even if that war were inevitable, they'd still be more worried about the Gallente, for now.
Anyanka Funk
Doomheim
#85 - 2015-05-22 15:02:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Anyanka Funk
If Master Kuvakei changed his citizens' implants to give his citizens joy from the belief in god and scripture, wouldn't that be more efficient than how the Amarr force their slaves to believe?
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#86 - 2015-05-22 15:06:12 UTC
More efficient does not mean better. Mind control devices do not cultivate real faith.
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#87 - 2015-05-22 15:06:29 UTC
Anyanka Funk wrote:
If Master Kuvakei, changed his citizens' implants to give his citizens joy from the belief in god and scripture, wouldn't that be more efficient than how the Amarr force their slaves to believe?


I believe that would be rather counter-intuitive to the very foundation of faith. Forced acceptance and false belief aren't faith, they're delusions, at best, and mental conditioning, at worst.

The Amarr, from my understanding, hold that the willing acceptance of submission to God is the beginning of faith, a vital component that cannot be replaced or circumvented.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Natheniel
Kurupt.
Sedition.
#88 - 2015-05-22 15:09:00 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
More efficient does not mean better. Mind control devices do not cultivate real faith.


But chemical control via vitoc is?

"Life is as a storm, one must be prepared for the hardship and scorn. But with in this is a light, one for which we must fight. For hope is our weapon and our dreams are our shield. When fully armed we can not be felled from the field."
Anyanka Funk
Doomheim
#89 - 2015-05-22 15:10:59 UTC
Liam Antolliere wrote:
Anyanka Funk wrote:
If Master Kuvakei, changed his citizens' implants to give his citizens joy from the belief in god and scripture, wouldn't that be more efficient than how the Amarr force their slaves to believe?


I believe that would be rather counter-intuitive to the very foundation of faith. Forced acceptance and false belief aren't faith, they're delusions, at best, and mental conditioning, at worst.

The Amarr, from my understanding, hold that the willing acceptance of submission to God is the beginning of faith, a vital component that cannot be replaced or circumvented.


There is no willing acceptance through slavery. Then it wouldn't be slavery.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#90 - 2015-05-22 15:15:21 UTC
Natheniel wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
More efficient does not mean better. Mind control devices do not cultivate real faith.


But chemical control via vitoc is?


It isn't.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#91 - 2015-05-22 15:15:48 UTC
Natheniel wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
More efficient does not mean better. Mind control devices do not cultivate real faith.


But chemical control via vitoc is?

Respectfully, Mr. Natheniel, the key question is whether the slave is capable of choosing to believe (however much they might be encouraged to do so).

If I remember the history, the Amarr were Sansha's Nation's strongest supporters, and the last empire to agree to go to war against Sansha Kuvakei after the True Slaves appeared.

The Amarr, I guess, did find Kuvakei's ideas intriguing, but ... removing free will defeats the purpose.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#92 - 2015-05-22 15:19:23 UTC
Jili Tonari wrote:
Tyrel Toov wrote:
I would like to rectify my previous statement, this topic may entertain me for a bit longer than I thought.... I also popped more popcorn then I ment to, so I'll be hanging around.



Yo!


Still here?


Yeah. Still here.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#93 - 2015-05-22 15:21:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Antolliere
Anyanka Funk wrote:
Liam Antolliere wrote:
Anyanka Funk wrote:
If Master Kuvakei, changed his citizens' implants to give his citizens joy from the belief in god and scripture, wouldn't that be more efficient than how the Amarr force their slaves to believe?


I believe that would be rather counter-intuitive to the very foundation of faith. Forced acceptance and false belief aren't faith, they're delusions, at best, and mental conditioning, at worst.

The Amarr, from my understanding, hold that the willing acceptance of submission to God is the beginning of faith, a vital component that cannot be replaced or circumvented.


There is no willing acceptance through slavery. Then it wouldn't be slavery.


Ha! Fate has a sense of humor, it seems....I never thought I'd see the day where I would be arguing for slavery, rather than against it.

Your sentiment, while completely understandable, represents a misunderstanding of the purpose of slavery in the Empire. A slave is never forced to accept faith nor is the acceptance of faith suddenly rewarded with freedom.

Slavery exists in order to break an individual free from distraction and teach them discipline, to instruct them in how to live a life that would be considered righteous before God. You can see the general philosophy behind this in the Scriptures:

Quote:
"Only through many hardships
Is a man stripped to his very foundations
And in such a state
Devoid of distractions
Is his soul free to soar
And in this
He is closest to God"
- The Scriptures, Book of Missions 42:5


If the reward for acceptance of the faith was immediate emancipation, then I would see merit in your argument. However, even after accepting the faith, an individual's status as a slave doesn't change. They remain a slave until such a time that they are able to have the chains removed and walk the righteous path without them.

Almost like training wheels to a bicycle.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Anyanka Funk
Doomheim
#94 - 2015-05-22 15:22:01 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Natheniel wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
More efficient does not mean better. Mind control devices do not cultivate real faith.


But chemical control via vitoc is?

Respectfully, Mr. Natheniel, the key question is whether the slave is capable of choosing to believe (however much they might be encouraged to do so).

If I remember the history, the Amarr were Sansha's Nation's strongest supporters, and the last empire to agree to go to war against Sansha Kuvakei after the True Slaves appeared.

The Amarr, I guess, did find Kuvakei's ideas intriguing, but ... removing free will defeats the purpose.


Slaves do not have free will. If they did, they would not be slaves.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#95 - 2015-05-22 15:24:06 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Natheniel wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
More efficient does not mean better. Mind control devices do not cultivate real faith.


But chemical control via vitoc is?


It isn't.

Then how is it still a thing?

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Anyanka Funk
Doomheim
#96 - 2015-05-22 15:25:45 UTC
Liam Antolliere wrote:
Anyanka Funk wrote:
Liam Antolliere wrote:
Anyanka Funk wrote:
If Master Kuvakei, changed his citizens' implants to give his citizens joy from the belief in god and scripture, wouldn't that be more efficient than how the Amarr force their slaves to believe?


I believe that would be rather counter-intuitive to the very foundation of faith. Forced acceptance and false belief aren't faith, they're delusions, at best, and mental conditioning, at worst.

The Amarr, from my understanding, hold that the willing acceptance of submission to God is the beginning of faith, a vital component that cannot be replaced or circumvented.


There is no willing acceptance through slavery. Then it wouldn't be slavery.


Ha! Fate has a sense of humor, it seems....I never thought I'd see the day where I would be arguing forj slavery, rather than against it.

Your sentiment, while completely understandable, represents a misunderstanding of the purpose of slavery in the Empire. A slave is never forced to accept faith nor is the acceptance of faith suddenly rewarded with freedom.

Slavery exists in order to break an individual free from distraction and teach them discipline, to instruct them in how to live a life that would be considered righteous before God. You can see the general philosophy behind this in the Scriptures:

Quote:
"Only through many hardships
Is a man stripped to his very foundations
And in such a state
Devoid of distractions
Is his soul free to soar
And in this
He is closest to God"
- The Scriptures, Book of Missions 42:5


If the reward for acceptance of the faith was immediate emancipation, then I would see merit in your argument. However, even after accepting the faith, an individual's status as a slave doesn't change. They remain a slave until such a time that they are able to have the chains removed and walk the righteous path without them.

Almost like training wheels to a bicycle.



I think this would suffice as an application letter to [PAUX].
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#97 - 2015-05-22 15:30:33 UTC
Anyanka Funk wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Natheniel wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
More efficient does not mean better. Mind control devices do not cultivate real faith.


But chemical control via vitoc is?

Respectfully, Mr. Natheniel, the key question is whether the slave is capable of choosing to believe (however much they might be encouraged to do so).

If I remember the history, the Amarr were Sansha's Nation's strongest supporters, and the last empire to agree to go to war against Sansha Kuvakei after the True Slaves appeared.

The Amarr, I guess, did find Kuvakei's ideas intriguing, but ... removing free will defeats the purpose.


Slaves do not have free will. If they did, they would not be slaves.

Even as a slave, I would have the option to rebel, and suffer for it, and probably eventually die.

Or just spit in my owner's soup, maybe.

Similarly, I might be forced to go through the motions of religious belief, and even study and recite the beliefs of my captors. I'm ... well, kind of clever. I could probably fake it. But the question of whether I actually believed would be mine alone.

True Slaves don't get that sort of choice. ... the mind isn't free (though it might be butchered as much as directly controlled).
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#98 - 2015-05-22 15:31:12 UTC
Anyanka Funk wrote:
I think this would suffice as an application letter to [PAUX].


Do not misunderstand me...

The wise learn the ways of their adversaries not because they wish to adopt them but because understanding reveals paths otherwise hidden; either for peace or for war.

I am an administrator in a peace conference, it would be extremely difficult to facilitate that goal if I did not make some effort to understand the people on the opposite end of the table.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#99 - 2015-05-22 15:34:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Anyanka Funk wrote:
Slaves do not have free will. If they did, they would not be slaves.


Slaves have freedom of will. What they don't have is freedom of opportunity.

Tyrel Toov wrote:
Then how is it still a thing?


Because Holders use their best judgment in handling difficult subjects. Some slaves are too stubborn and hostile to be able to be managed with more proper methods.

The issue with it, is that there are some places in the empire where it is used too liberally.
Anyanka Funk
Doomheim
#100 - 2015-05-22 15:48:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Anyanka Funk
I'm going to adopt a Drooler for experimentation with this subject.