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[Carnyx] Sentry Drone Adjustments

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Valterra Craven
#261 - 2015-05-22 02:37:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
Kitty Bear wrote:
Lady Aesir wrote:
Ishtar

A Cruiser should not be able to field sentries PERIOD


oh noes ... the stealth bombers .....



Yeah a whole class of ships designed to die if a flea landed on them... again not comparable.
Sort Dragon
Resilience.
The Initiative.
#262 - 2015-05-22 02:54:08 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you **** off 90% of the forums.

Big smile


Well has something come to light that contradicts Rise's statement? Which particular ships outside of Ishtar and Domi are using sentries/drones to OP effect? Where's the data to back this all up? What do the CSM say on this (if anything?)


Nothing here contradicts Rise's statement. The biggest issue was definitely the Ishtar hull, and the hull is still a significant component of the issue. That's why we made a much larger adjustment to the Ishtar last release (cutting its sentry damage bonus in half) than these changes to the drones. While the results of that Ishtar change is still playing out, we're continuing to make more adjustments to the overall sentry ecosystem with these changes. We also won't rule out more changes to the hull (and to other non-hull aspects of this whole picture) in the near future, but we aren't ready for more of those in Carnyx quite yet.

Sentries are an extremely strong weapon system, and their strength has really shown itself in the past years as we hit the critical mass required for players to improve their tactics for using them. At the moment they are a bit too good on essentially every ship that has a drone damage bonus and at least 125mbits bandwidth (with Ishtars the most obvious offender, but Domis, carriers, VNIs, Rattlesnakes and Geddons all affected), which is why we're making some moderate changes to the drones in Carnyx.

I'll let individual CSM members share their opinions if they wish, but every member of the CSM that provided any comment on these changes pushed for larger nerfs. The version of these changes that I first showed the CSM was a bit milder, but they convinced me to give it a bit more teeth.


Like Fozzie has stated we were consulted about this and the nerf suggested was less than posted at the start of this thread and after discussions between us and ccp, fozzie upped the nerf a bit. Speaking for myself I am satisfied that ccp realises the issue with sentries and the boats that get direct bonus's to these and instead of following the old way of doing things and just nerfing these ships into nonexistance they are actually trying to apply a nerf but still make them usefull if you so chose to use them.
Thirdsin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#263 - 2015-05-22 03:21:41 UTC
Can we just not, and say we did?

+1 to the Hulls, not drones, camp.
novasigma Okaski
Doomheim
#264 - 2015-05-22 03:36:52 UTC
I don't usually key in on things like this because of trolls but would it not instead of adjusting the range and damage output of existing drones to just take the bonuses to tracking on the ishtar down/away as well as the optimal range bonus? This would help smooth out the ishtar op-ness
07 nova
Garrett Howe
New Eden Shipbuilding
#265 - 2015-05-22 03:39:14 UTC
What can you do to nerf the Ishtar without killing sentries? The only feasible option I see is reducing their drone bandwidth to 50 and giving them huge bonuses to medium drones, but then they are essentially a cheaper Gila, so then do you change the Gila to something else? Maybe EWAR drone bonuses or something, but I think CCP is not looking to do that either.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#266 - 2015-05-22 03:42:50 UTC
I agree that a multi-pronged approach is necessary. You have to adjust both the weapon system and the ships.

As far as the weapons go, I hate that Carriers can use sentry drones. This needs to go away. Nerfing sentry drones across the board to make them slightly less desirable on Carriers does not really fix the issues.

As far as ships go, I don't want to see the Ishtar completely gutted - I just want to see a healthy ecosystem in which other HAC's - and other ship classes - have a sensible place. The combination of selectable damage, excellent projection, excellent mobility, and relatively tough ships makes it hard for any other comparable class to compete with the Ishtar right now. CCP needs to find the sweet spot to make the Zealot, Eagle, and Muninn at least worth considering vis-a-vis the Ishtar. That will require slight buffs to those ships as well as slight nerfs to the Ishtar.

I think the Dominix and the Armageddon are both decent ships, without being so overwhelming that every other BS has no role in Eve.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#267 - 2015-05-22 04:18:48 UTC
Fozzie: I feel you have the wrong end of the problem. Sentries are truly only OP on Ishtars.

I suggests you leave Sentries at 25mb bandwidth and adjust their stats to reflect a long range sniper platform, which should result in a nerf to DPS. Take heavy drones and cut their bandwidth to 20mb (geckos to 45mb) and then reduce the ishtar bandwidth to 100mbs. Give the ishtar a hefty bonus to heavy drone hp and navigation. So the sniper fit is viable but not overpowered (4 sentries only) and a brawling fit using heavies also possible without being pants on head dumb, but appropriately risky.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Valkin Mordirc
#268 - 2015-05-22 04:57:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkin Mordirc
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you **** off 90% of the forums.

Big smile



Look I get it, when you make a change you got 100 bajillion people calling you an idiot, that you can't do you job, if it's like anything else that gets the public eye, you probably even been sent death threats, and been harassed. I get how that can be frustrating, annoying, and probably makes you want to quit your job, being forced to just sit and take the abuse specially when it's something you care about, as I assume you do with EVE, and not defend yourself.

I have sympathies for you, I really do.


But passive aggressive comments to your customers is not a good way to be the face of a multi-national gaming corporation. You ask for Feedback you got feedback. Don't get mad when people don't agree with the change.

Reedit:


Rethought about it, I want the ishtar fixed. I don't know if nerfing sentries is the solution it's obviously a liquid state where things can be fixed later. However given CCP's past I really doubt that that may happen. I like the Ishtar, I like droneboats I don't want them to become a Drake.

This Nerf effects more then just the Ishtar, I've never had a problem with Sentries with other ships, only the Ishtar does it seem like a problem. This nerf cascades into that ship. And I hope that you have the data backing that choice.
#DeleteTheWeak
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#269 - 2015-05-22 05:07:25 UTC
You're making the right call.

If you nerf Ishtars hard, then the Vexor Navy Issue or the Dominix or the Armageddon or the Rattlesnake will just replace it as the sentry platform of choice.

That said, monitor closely how this change works in practice, and if the Ishtar remains better than the second and third best cruiser-size hulls combined, it's time for a little more nerfbat loving for that hull; maybe dropping the role bonus from 5% to 4% or even 3% for sentries.

Also remember the nuclear option on sentries if needed - making heavies 20mb/s bandwidth, sentries 30mb/s, and then making the Ishtar and VNI both 100mb/s while battleship droneboats get 120 or 150mb/s as appropriate to the hull. If this patch PLUS a recalibration of the Ishtar hull don't solve the problem, bring out that nuclear option.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#270 - 2015-05-22 05:36:29 UTC
Any way PvE drone boats (which already fell subpar to pretty much everything else with previous nerf) can compensate for this nerfbatting?

Guess not. Thanks for killing most of the drones SP on PvE characters, yet another lovely setback. Now go buff gewnies one more time and this time I unsub for real.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#271 - 2015-05-22 05:51:14 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Any way PvE drone boats (which already fell subpar to pretty much everything else with previous nerf) can compensate for this nerfbatting?

Guess not. Thanks for killing most of the drones SP on PvE characters, yet another lovely setback. Now go buff gewnies one more time and this time I unsub for real.


Umm the goons preferred PVE boat is an Ishtar, good native resist profile for fighting Guristas and heavy drones/sentries don't care about being jammed.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#272 - 2015-05-22 06:10:04 UTC
-25mb bandwidth on cruisers class.
Compare Stratios vs VNI. Same bonus to damage. Few hundred alpha less on Stratios.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#273 - 2015-05-22 06:19:05 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Any way PvE drone boats (which already fell subpar to pretty much everything else with previous nerf) can compensate for this nerfbatting?

Guess not. Thanks for killing most of the drones SP on PvE characters, yet another lovely setback. Now go buff gewnies one more time and this time I unsub for real.


To paraphrase Heartbreak Ridge, "this is the AFK Ishtar, the preferred ratting ship of your enemies. It makes a distinctive noise when it's fired at a Gurista."

In other words, take your nonsensical grrr Goons nonsense elsewhere. It has no place in this thread.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Gladiator XM
BURN EDEN
No Therapy
#274 - 2015-05-22 06:28:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Gladiator XM
Obidiah Kane wrote:
I learn the Ishtar then...
I learn the Loki then...
I learn the Svipul then...
I learn the Domi then...

you are nerfing a lot of ships that new players set as desire targets...is there anyway you could advise us of your rebalance timetable in advance? ie. if you had told me end of last year the Ishtar and Domi I had been training toward (with my PVE toon) were going to have their balls cut off I would have gone Amarr/ Caldari like everyone else, and not wasted months of sub training 'meh' skills I thought were 'Wooo!' skills.

:( Sorry, just grumpy, everything seems to devalue after I have learnt it.



Welcome to FozziEvE
Skydott
KHAN TENGRI
#275 - 2015-05-22 07:28:56 UTC
You better REPAIR! drone assist in lkow sec cause drone assisted to rapier or other ship not engage fighting in pvp.
Calico Jack Rose
Original Sinners
Pandemic Legion
#276 - 2015-05-22 07:29:55 UTC
Obidiah Kane wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Obidiah Kane wrote:
I learn the Ishtar then...
I learn the Loki then...
I learn the Svipul then...
I learn the Domi then...

you are nerfing a lot of ships that new players set as desire targets...is there anyway you could advise us of your rebalance timetable in advance? ie. if you had told me end of last year the Ishtar and Domi I had been training toward (with my PVE toon) were going to have their balls cut off I would have gone Amarr/ Caldari like everyone else, and not wasted months of sub training 'meh' skills I thought were 'Wooo!' skills.

:( Sorry, just grumpy, everything seems to devalue after I have learnt it.


maybe you should train what you like, rather than being utterly awful



Come again?! What kind of person even writes that? Why write it? What does it even mean?



Uh maybe a new bro! Quit being so elite you bitter vet piece of trash! It is a legit question and one that is seen on the forums often. The nerf bat is ridiculous around here. I mean why not make every ship equal in every situation so that people don't have to think about what they are going out to fight. There is and always will be a specific set of ships for different situations. No matter what happens the next ship will pop up and be op because that's what happens when you have a null power block they put boots on the ground so to speak and thus people will always complain because they lost a ship in a sandbox game.
Vlade Randal
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#277 - 2015-05-22 07:33:20 UTC
afkalt wrote:
I think you're hurting the hulls which are not bonused for them disproportionately hard compared to the bonused ones.

No-one complains about a sentry geddon. The issues sit firmly in the bonused hulls, who will feel this less because of their already huge advantage over their peer group.

I know you like to balance the weapons and not blame hulls but in this case, it clearly IS the hulls.


I think its reasonable to give sentries an overall nerf... however
I agree that the Ishtar hull bonuses need to be adjusted as well.

Currently the Ishtar has the following buffs:

Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed
10% bonus to Light Drone, Medium Drone, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage
5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage.

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):
5000m bonus to Drone operation range
5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed

Role Bonus:
50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty

In addition to the proposed changes to sentry drones, I suggest that the Ishtar needs to have the following hull bonus adjusted:

"5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed"

I think the tracking speed bonus to sentries needs to be removed, so that the bonus is:

"5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range"
Rax Perio
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#278 - 2015-05-22 07:59:31 UTC
Sir Constantin wrote:
Gardes optimal and tracking nerf is too strong for my PVE ishtar.

I guess it's time to look for alternatives.



your pve ishtar should be using heavies after the sentry nerf.

just sayin
Anthar Thebess
#279 - 2015-05-22 08:35:32 UTC
Love this change! Sentry deserve this!

Currently all module meta is moving into direction :
T1 < T2 < Faction

Can we get some nice buff to faction drones or new faction drone types :
- 75% tracking
+ 50% damage
+ 15% to optimal range

Cost PU: 10mil + 5.000 LP

Sometimes you just need to shoot something big, not moving , and not piloted by any one.

So we will have drone :
- worthless in PVP
- bad in PVE
- good at shooting different structures.
- expensive and good isk sink

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#280 - 2015-05-22 08:39:24 UTC
Miner Hottie wrote:
Umm the goons preferred PVE boat is an Ishtar, good native resist profile for fighting Guristas and heavy drones/sentries don't care about being jammed.


That's what they say and you repeat after them like a parrot. They never speak truth, so don't. What they rat in are carriers and rattlesnakes, the lies about Ishtars is needed to try and convince people that there are no slow and blingy ships ratting there, which has been proven wrong a buttload of times. Doesn't stop people who are gullible enough to listen to a gewn from believing in the Ishtar myth and other bull.

Aaaaaaaand guess what? Wardens aint nerfed. There are goonie ears sticking out of this change, how unexpected, yet another nerf-everyone-but-gewns change.

Ok, just so this post doesn't get moderated, I'll be mild: curse you all.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.