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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Abolition and Faith
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#61 - 2015-05-22 02:30:06 UTC
Answering what ... well, bluntly, seems worth answering.

Evi Polevhia wrote:
The Caldari are against Slavery too, they're just not willing to break any of their precious trade agreements. But even still, no such vote has even taken place.

....

So in short, the Empire gets to keep their slaves because of Caldari greed and cowardice. Because with the State backing the Empire out of love of ISK, it's too big of a potential war and too many people could die for something really only the Federation and Republic care that much about. Lovely.

The Caldari back the Amarr because the Amarr stand against the Gallente. The Matari back the Gallente because the Gallente stand against the Amarr.

The Jove mostly just stay out of it (or prefer to look like they do).

That's been the basic balance of power for, literally, decades. Literally.

There's a bit more to this than trade agreements and ISK.
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#62 - 2015-05-22 02:35:45 UTC
You're more of an optimist than I.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#63 - 2015-05-22 02:43:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Evi Polevhia wrote:
You're more of an optimist than I.

If you trust the Nation to be an improvement, I can't agree.

Edit:

No, that's not enough of a response.

Ms. Polevhia, nation states, including the Caldari State, don't run (just) on money; they run on power. Power, be it personal, institutional, or national, is needed for just about everything. Money's just one form of power (of which the Caldari are admittedly fond), but a nation state needs a whole tool kit.

The Gallente and Caldari have been enemies for generations (even if the Gallente sometimes seem to have wanted to forget about that). The Caldari cannot allow the Gallente to gain an edge in power, or they risk losing the next war outright. They're not going to shoot their own ally in the back, ISK or no ISK, slaves or no slaves, because doing that would weaken the Caldari.

It's not about principle; it's about national interests. That's realpolitik. It's about as cold-blooded as politics gets, and that's plenty cold-blooded.

About the only way I can think of that seeing the State's actions in this way constitutes optimism is that I'm assuming the State's leaders aren't stupid.
Enso Nibbana
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#64 - 2015-05-22 03:20:14 UTC
Don't throw stones when you live in a glass house.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#65 - 2015-05-22 05:01:49 UTC
Saede Riordan wrote:

This is a difficult world to live in, compared to the much simpler lives our ancestors lived. Our time is burdened under the cumulative weight of successive debunkings of our conceits: We aren't special or unique, we live in an unremarkable galaxy amidst a multitude.

That what holy texts are about.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#66 - 2015-05-22 10:16:40 UTC
Liam Antolliere wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
I am pretty sure to have seen historical records mentioning slavery, and those are legion.


Which brings us full circle back to the problem of culture being intentionally intertwined with religion.

Historical records are secular documents. Yet they qualify as divinely inspired, God-mandated Scripture?

Unless I am misunderstanding what you mean by "historical records."

If, instead, you are stating that historical documents which are part of the Scriptures mention slavery, and further that the slavery mentioned in these documents is a direct command by God to implement and practice slavery then that's another matter. However, my answer to such an assertion would remain unchanged; present to me the authenticity of these documents as direct commands form God and not simply the assertions of a group directly tied to the politics of the Empire.


Uhm... Since you wrote 'refer directly to slavery', I did not understand that you also meant by the word of God, thus my allusion to scripture historical records... My apologies...
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#67 - 2015-05-22 11:02:34 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:

The Caldari are against Slavery too, they're just not willing to break any of their precious trade agreements. But even still, no such vote has even taken place.


Well... The Caldari have never been against slavery proper, they are just opposing it inside their own borders...
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#68 - 2015-05-22 11:13:54 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Evi Polevhia wrote:

The Caldari are against Slavery too, they're just not willing to break any of their precious trade agreements. But even still, no such vote has even taken place.


Well... The Caldari have never been against slavery proper, they are just opposing it inside their own borders...

It's illegal within their space. The empires are fine with trying to enforce their own laws outside of their boarders, but in this case they value their trade relations and military relations with the Amarr too much.
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#69 - 2015-05-22 11:51:14 UTC
So much hand-wringing over a food product for the Chosen people of God.
Jili Tonari
Doomheim
#70 - 2015-05-22 12:01:27 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

The Caldari back the Amarr because the Amarr stand against the Gallente. The Matari back the Gallente because the Gallente stand against the Amarr.

The Jove mostly just stay out of it (or prefer to look like they do).

That's been the basic balance of power for, literally, decades. Literally.

There's a bit more to this than trade agreements and ISK.




The Caldari and Gallente need to realize that it's just a matter of time before Amarrr aims the Reclamation at them.

The Jove are dead. And if the Jove were a barrier to Amarr ambition, that barrier is gone.

Politics abhors a vacuum and with the Jove out of the picture, how long before the Empire starts thinking that they're the logical replacement for "top banana of the galaxy?"

“Where must we go, we who wander this wasteland, in search of our better selves.”
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#71 - 2015-05-22 12:01:35 UTC
Took you long enough to show up.
Jili Tonari
Doomheim
#72 - 2015-05-22 12:04:42 UTC
Tyrel Toov wrote:
I would like to rectify my previous statement, this topic may entertain me for a bit longer than I thought.... I also popped more popcorn then I ment to, so I'll be hanging around.



Yo!


Still here?

“Where must we go, we who wander this wasteland, in search of our better selves.”
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#73 - 2015-05-22 12:55:47 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
Evi Polevhia wrote:

The Caldari are against Slavery too, they're just not willing to break any of their precious trade agreements. But even still, no such vote has even taken place.


Well... The Caldari have never been against slavery proper, they are just opposing it inside their own borders...

It's illegal within their space. The empires are fine with trying to enforce their own laws outside of their boarders, but in this case they value their trade relations and military relations with the Amarr too much.


They are illegal within their space, and that does not mean that they actively campaign against it outside. Most of what I have heard and read about the Caldari is that the concept simply looks alien to them, and thus do not want to have to do anything with it.

From that point of view, it is easy to understand that they have no vested interest nor any ideological lever to weight outside of their own space, against slavery.
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#74 - 2015-05-22 13:21:38 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
From that point of view, it is easy to understand that they have no vested interest nor any ideological lever to weight outside of their own space, against slavery.

This then means they went to war with Nation...why?
Vizage
Capital Allied Industrial Distribution
#75 - 2015-05-22 13:37:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Vizage
Making something Illegal in ones sovereign territory is a rather stark statement of what the society inside that territory views on the matter. Barring hardliner dictatorships where laws are used to suppress the the populace, laws tend to represent the moral heart of the people whom are subject to them.

While I wouldn't go so far as to say amongst the most common Caldari people there is a deep seated hatred for Slavery. But the fact that it is illegal in the greater State and no Megacorperation has pushed forward any attempt to annul said law. Even given the rather exemplary effects a slave workforce would have on ones profit margins, speaks for itself really.

Slavery is illegal in the State because we believe it is wrong, but we Caldari also due to our tumultuous history with the Gallente believe that it should be no one's business what someone else does in their own home.

Ms. Polevhia raises a good question that had me pondering for a while. If I could best guess Ms. Polevhia beside the Political pressure of the other signatories agreeing for that war I could suspect that of all Empires, Sansha posed the greatest economic and military threat to ours. Being smaller in both physical geography and population, and ever growing empire on our doorstep to a hawkish politician would be a serious concern.

Especially given how good our diplomacy was going with our other neighbor.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2015-05-22 14:23:22 UTC
God, the universe, and the self are synonymous.

We are all searching for answers.

How you search for them or what you call what you seek is what divides all of humanity much as the same as race does. A phantom we all believe in that ends up owning our lives. The mistake is thinking there is only one path to God. This is human failure, the stars, animals, ...even a child, sees no difference. They must be taught division.

All live in harmony with God and the universe, and only we seek to divide and upset the balance. Everything is true and everything happens for a reason. God is greater than we can even comprehend and man is more than capable of twisting creation to suit what we think is the right path. Men have used science to control other men and so too have they used religion and God.

The Amarrian Empire is guilty of this, they have twisted the word of God to support slavery, to support their monuments of greed and excess and pride. They are not beyond hope and they are no further from God than any of us. They have brought many Matari to God through suffering, just as they say to do.

But it is a suffering men wrote into God's word. And surely God suffers too as we are all a part of God.

God is perfect, man has brought this pain on ourselves and we shall pay the price.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Cakzad Arcashiri
Arcashiri Family
#77 - 2015-05-22 14:35:54 UTC
It would appear many of you have openly expressed your opinion.

Never-the-less, I hold mine. God is Holy, God is Redeemer, God is Purifier, and I will praise and worship Him until my death.

"I give to you the destiny of Faith,

And you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens:

Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given."

- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 22:13
Natheniel
Kurupt.
Sedition.
#78 - 2015-05-22 14:47:48 UTC
Cakzad Arcashiri wrote:
It would appear many of you have openly expressed your opinion.

Never-the-less, I hold mine. God is Holy, God is Redeemer, God is Purifier, and I will praise and worship Him until my death.



And no one here has challenged this. Simply the method in such you are told to do so.

"Life is as a storm, one must be prepared for the hardship and scorn. But with in this is a light, one for which we must fight. For hope is our weapon and our dreams are our shield. When fully armed we can not be felled from the field."
Cakzad Arcashiri
Arcashiri Family
#79 - 2015-05-22 14:50:17 UTC
The method? You mean that I am told by God to follow Him to Heaven. Ha.

I would not expect Heathen to understand. Do you know how many slaves have been lead to God? The Ni-Kunni were once slaves, and they came to God and now they are an influential race among the Empire.

"I give to you the destiny of Faith,

And you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens:

Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given."

- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 22:13
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#80 - 2015-05-22 14:54:00 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
From that point of view, it is easy to understand that they have no vested interest nor any ideological lever to weight outside of their own space, against slavery.

This then means they went to war with Nation...why?


I suppose that like most other empires, the problem was probably to see what happened to true slaves. It is on a far different scale than mere TCMCs... That, and the experiments.

But that coalition was done in such a manner that it shows a clear sign of fear and horror, strong enough to push dire enemies to band together with the aim of destroying the source of that fear.