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[Carnyx] Sentry Drone Adjustments

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Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#141 - 2015-05-21 18:26:38 UTC
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
Liking the change. In general I've always hated droneboats. Anything that discourages their use is fine by me. Makes those huge battles much easier on the Hamsters when there aren't 10's of thousands of drones being abandoned into space (sometimes purposefully to induce more tidi)

[Sarcasm] We should get rid of everything except missiles, then it would all be balanced. [/Sarcasm]
There are different weapon systems that behave in different ways, let us not get rid variety because you don't like one of the flavors.
Stinkie Wizzleteats
East Coast Grass Growers Association
#142 - 2015-05-21 18:29:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Stinkie Wizzleteats
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone! For our Carnyx release at the beginning of June we're planning on making some moderate tweaks to sentry drones, part of our ongoing process of massaging drone combat into a healthier place in the meta.

These are a very specific and limited set of changes that we believe will benefit the game, but it's important to know that these are explicitly not intended to be a "once and for all" fix for every problem related to sentries. There's no such thing as a balance silver bullet.

The main goals of these changes are to further improve the intra-class balance between sentry drones (smoothing out the progression in tracking speed and compressing the damage spread a bit) and slightly reducing the power level of some sentry fits and doctrines, especially for Bouncers and Curators that are quite dominant in a few areas.

Current plan is:
Gardes: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking
Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking
Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking

We welcome feedback as always!


So, you are making this change to specifically address the bouncers and curators and yet....you nerd the **** out of the gardes....the fleet meta uses the drone in which you specially said this was to address.

So with the same fit, same char in a unbonsued hull No tracking mods. Gardes 24k optimal, bouncers 36k optimal, curators 42k optimal, wardens 60k optimal. so why are you reducing optimal of the grade to 18k optimal? The unbonsued hulls for gardes will really take a hit. When currently, they already have a 67% the optimal range of the next drone up ( the bouncer).after they will have a range of half 50% of the next ranged drone

The bonused hills specifically with range bonus is the real problem.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#143 - 2015-05-21 18:29:51 UTC
Terra Chrall wrote:

An Eagle gets: 20% shield resists, 50% optimal, 50% optimal, 25% damage.
A Zealot gets a 50% weapon cap use bonus, 25% RoF bonus, 50% optimal bonus, and 25% raw damage bonus.
An Ishtar gets 25% drone HP, 25% damage, 25% optimal, and 25% tracking.

The Eagle gets 1x tank bonus, 2x range, 1x damage,
The Zealot gets 2x damage bonuses and 1x range bonus
The Ishtar gets 1x damage, 1x range, and 1x applicaiton.



You forgot to list the cap usage reduction as a bonus to damage in your shortlist I guess.

You also missed the 5000m/level drone range on the Ishtar which is a projection bonus, especially on sentries.
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#144 - 2015-05-21 18:30:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Desudes
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Terra Chrall wrote:
Taram Caldar wrote:
Just my opinion but sentries aren't the problem, currently. The problem is the bonuses on the ishtar that push their drone damage, in general, so over and above the damage output of other ships in their peer group...

Ishtar Sentry damage is already in line with ships of their class. This happened the last balance pass on the hull when damage bonus was cut in half from 50% to 25%. They have maximal dps with Heavy Drones which have their own shortcomings.

The tracking/optimal bonus of 25% on the Ishtar Sentries and 37.5% on the Domi ones are significant but not out of line with other ranged systems.

Let's compare 3 HACs, bonuses only:

An Eagle gets: 20% shield resists, 50% optimal, 50% optimal, 25% damage.
A Zealot gets a 50% weapon cap use bonus, 25% RoF bonus, 50% optimal bonus, and 25% raw damage bonus.
An Ishtar gets 25% drone HP, 25% damage, 25% optimal, and 25% tracking.

The Eagle gets 1x tank bonus, 2x range, 1x damage,
The Zealot gets 2x damage bonuses and 1x range bonus
The Ishtar gets 1x damage, 1x range, and 1x applicaiton.

The bonuses are all in line with each other.


Still waiting for a Zealot setup that can do 420 dps at 160 km.

Eagle can reach that with CN Plutonium at 58+20 km.

Quote:
It is the weapon system that then makes them stand apart.


So just a battleship-sized weapons system. Roll


Apples/oranges comparison. zealot will have half again the ehp of a fleet ishtar, a tiny signature, the zealots dps is where the ship is, not where he drops it, fleet zealots are typically AB brawlers, not shield kiters, even beam zealot has significantly more tracking...

160km drone control range is nigh impossible with any tank due to cpu. 120ish is feasible.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#145 - 2015-05-21 18:33:37 UTC
Desudes wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Terra Chrall wrote:
Taram Caldar wrote:
Just my opinion but sentries aren't the problem, currently. The problem is the bonuses on the ishtar that push their drone damage, in general, so over and above the damage output of other ships in their peer group...

Ishtar Sentry damage is already in line with ships of their class. This happened the last balance pass on the hull when damage bonus was cut in half from 50% to 25%. They have maximal dps with Heavy Drones which have their own shortcomings.

The tracking/optimal bonus of 25% on the Ishtar Sentries and 37.5% on the Domi ones are significant but not out of line with other ranged systems.

Let's compare 3 HACs, bonuses only:

An Eagle gets: 20% shield resists, 50% optimal, 50% optimal, 25% damage.
A Zealot gets a 50% weapon cap use bonus, 25% RoF bonus, 50% optimal bonus, and 25% raw damage bonus.
An Ishtar gets 25% drone HP, 25% damage, 25% optimal, and 25% tracking.

The Eagle gets 1x tank bonus, 2x range, 1x damage,
The Zealot gets 2x damage bonuses and 1x range bonus
The Ishtar gets 1x damage, 1x range, and 1x applicaiton.

The bonuses are all in line with each other.


Still waiting for a Zealot setup that can do 420 dps at 160 km.

Eagle can reach that with CN Plutonium at 58+20 km.

Quote:
It is the weapon system that then makes them stand apart.


So just a battleship-sized weapons system. Roll


Apples/oranges comparison. zealot will have half again the ehp of a fleet ishtar, a tiny signature, the zealots dps is where the ship is, not where he drops it, fleet zealots are typically AB brawlers, not shield kiters, even beam zealot has significantly more tracking...


Except that you can have all of the above on the Ishtard, with yes, 50% more EHP and project to ranges where Zealot and Eagle are blown into stellar dust, hence they are not employed. Anymore.

I'll update this post with tracking metrics in a sec.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#146 - 2015-05-21 18:34:40 UTC
Elenahina wrote:
Obidiah Kane wrote:

:( Sorry, just grumpy, everything seems to devalue after I have learnt it.


You get used to it - this happens a lot in Eve, especially for newer players. Best advice I was ever given was do not specialize - the more ships you know how to fly, the more nerf proof you are.


Endorsing this.

Train everything, shrug at nerfs and enjoy the buffs

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#147 - 2015-05-21 18:36:44 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Elenahina wrote:
Obidiah Kane wrote:

:( Sorry, just grumpy, everything seems to devalue after I have learnt it.


You get used to it - this happens a lot in Eve, especially for newer players. Best advice I was ever given was do not specialize - the more ships you know how to fly, the more nerf proof you are.


Endorsing this.

Train everything, shrug at nerfs and enjoy the buffs


It's kind of a large goal when starting EVE tho.
Alexis Nightwish
#148 - 2015-05-21 18:39:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexis Nightwish
To all of you who say sentries and heavies, being BS class weapons, should not be on these cruiser class hulls, let me tell you I've gone down that road and it leads to nowhere.

CCP Rise wrote:
This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries.

We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well.



I think the best course of action is to address the rediculous bandwidth cruisers have.

Logical progresssion of drone boat bandwidth maximums:
Frigate: 25mb
Destroyer: 40mb
Cruiser: 50mb
Battlecruiser: 100mb
Battleship: 125mb


Current, and fundementally flawed progresssion of drone boat bandwidth maximums:
Frigate: 25mb
Destroyer: 35mb
Cruiser: 125mb
Battlecruiser: 100mb
Battleship: 125mb

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Irya Boone
The Scope
#149 - 2015-05-21 18:43:58 UTC
stop nerfing drones for god sake
the only problem with drones is Ishtar but not sentries , sentries are the only way drones can match guns or missiles because .. of speed and damage application

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#150 - 2015-05-21 18:44:39 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Why does the double bonus on the problematic hulls are allowed to stay for so damn long on ship that even CCP acknowledge are problematic?

Is there any other weapon where a bonus to application and projection (tracking + optimal) in any form is present on the same bonus slot for a hull?

Looking at other HACs the Munnin gets rate of fire, damage, optimal, and tracking; which from a bonus only comparison is better than the Ishtar's.

Several other HACs get double damage bonuses and double range, some only get one range bonus. The fact that the Ishtar gets one for damage, one for optimal, and one for tracking is not out of line with other HACs. It is the weapon system that makes the bonuses more meaningful.
punch monke
East Coast Grass Growers Association
#151 - 2015-05-21 18:46:56 UTC  |  Edited by: punch monke
Kinda redicious that why you say your nerfing primarily bounces and curators, you still nerd the gardes range to 1/4 of the actual range. They already like 70% the range or bouncers, 60% the range of curators, and 40% the range or wardens.

After your proposed changes the optimal of gardes will be 50% of bouncers, 43% of curators, and 30% of wardens. Pretty sure the dps of these do not match the optimal ranges. Seems as though it was balanced with the current setup
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2015-05-21 18:47:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Desudes
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:


Except that you can have all of the above on the Ishtard, with yes, 50% more EHP and project to ranges where Zealot and Eagle are blown into stellar dust, hence they are not employed. Anymore.

I'll update this post with tracking metrics in a sec.


plz link a 120k+ ehp ishtar fit with DLAs in the highs and dmg in the lows.

Most fleet ishtars are going to be 40-65k ehp depending on their range/tracking mods, with 95ish to 115ish drone control range (1 DLA or 2)

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#153 - 2015-05-21 18:55:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Deacon Abox
Alexhandr Shkarov wrote:
I hope one day the Ishtar loses any sentry bonuses, and instead is more tailored to heavy-drone platforms. It retains a lot of the power but no longer the range that sentries can project damage at.

That's called a Rattlesnake, Gila, Worm. Also, the damage multiplier on the Ishtar was already addressed.
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Current, and fundementally flawed progresssion of drone boat bandwidth maximums:
Frigate: 25mb
Destroyer: 35mb
Cruiser: 125mb
Battlecruiser: 100mb
Battleship: 125mb

Nice try, except you are mixing in tech II and faction ships for comparison. If you want to talk base tech I ships only then there is nothing to moan about. Vexor/Arby at 75.

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#154 - 2015-05-21 18:59:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Desudes wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:


Except that you can have all of the above on the Ishtard, with yes, 50% more EHP and project to ranges where Zealot and Eagle are blown into stellar dust, hence they are not employed. Anymore.

I'll update this post with tracking metrics in a sec.


plz link a 120k+ ehp ishtar fit with DLAs in the highs and dmg in the lows.


Where do you get 120k from? A Zealot with a 800mm plate is 40k EHP with 50% more you get 60k for the Ishtar.

Sentry Tracking vs Heavy Beams as promised,

Tracking/Chance to hit AB HAC target: http://i.imgur.com/UV7IoZc.png
DPS: http://i.imgur.com/GzxCLYe.png

Tracking/Chance to hit MWD HAC target: http://i.imgur.com/84VLxdJ.png
DPS: http://i.imgur.com/JgzRSH1.png

Yes, the Zealot has 8.33 effective turrets and the 7.5 sentries - yet it still achieves 25% more DPS.

Balanced game, yo.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#155 - 2015-05-21 19:01:41 UTC
Who puts 800s on a zealot...wtaf
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2015-05-21 19:03:46 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Desudes wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:


Except that you can have all of the above on the Ishtard, with yes, 50% more EHP and project to ranges where Zealot and Eagle are blown into stellar dust, hence they are not employed. Anymore.

I'll update this post with tracking metrics in a sec.


plz link a 120k+ ehp ishtar fit with DLAs in the highs and dmg in the lows.


Where do you get 120k from? A Zealot with a 800mm plate is 40k EHP with 50% more you get 60k for the Ishtar.

Sentry Tracking vs Heavy Beams as promised,

Tracking/Chance to hit AB HAC target: http://i.imgur.com/UV7IoZc.png
DPS: http://i.imgur.com/GzxCLYe.png

Tracking/Chance to hit MWD HAC target: http://i.imgur.com/84VLxdJ.png
DPS: http://i.imgur.com/JgzRSH1.png

Yes, the Zealot has 8.33 effective turrets and the 7.5 sentries - yet it still achieves 25% more DPS.

Balanced game, yo.


Thats why you put a 1600mm plate on it. 84km ehp and 83m sig radius with legion links.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#157 - 2015-05-21 19:05:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Desudes wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Desudes wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:


Except that you can have all of the above on the Ishtard, with yes, 50% more EHP and project to ranges where Zealot and Eagle are blown into stellar dust, hence they are not employed. Anymore.

I'll update this post with tracking metrics in a sec.


plz link a 120k+ ehp ishtar fit with DLAs in the highs and dmg in the lows.


Where do you get 120k from? A Zealot with a 800mm plate is 40k EHP with 50% more you get 60k for the Ishtar.

Sentry Tracking vs Heavy Beams as promised,

Tracking/Chance to hit AB HAC target: http://i.imgur.com/UV7IoZc.png
DPS: http://i.imgur.com/GzxCLYe.png

Tracking/Chance to hit MWD HAC target: http://i.imgur.com/84VLxdJ.png
DPS: http://i.imgur.com/JgzRSH1.png

Yes, the Zealot has 8.33 effective turrets and the 7.5 sentries - yet it still achieves 25% more DPS.

Balanced game, yo.


Thats why you put a 1600mm plate on it. 84km ehp and 83m sig radius with legion links.


And 45% less DPS than the Ishtar, which has the same EHP. Big smile

So how about that tracking? Even on a 85 sig target, Bouncers & Curators track the same as Heavy Beams.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#158 - 2015-05-21 19:06:30 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Who puts 800s on a zealot...wtaf

Posting alts ? P

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Valterra Craven
#159 - 2015-05-21 19:08:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
To all of you who say sentries and heavies, being BS class weapons, should not be on these cruiser class hulls, let me tell you I've gone down that road and it leads to nowhere.

CCP Rise wrote:
This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries.

We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well.



I think the best course of action is to address the rediculous bandwidth cruisers have.

Logical progresssion of drone boat bandwidth maximums:
Frigate: 25mb
Destroyer: 40mb
Cruiser: 50mb
Battlecruiser: 100mb
Battleship: 125mb


Current, and fundementally flawed progresssion of drone boat bandwidth maximums:
Frigate: 25mb
Destroyer: 35mb
Cruiser: 125mb
Battlecruiser: 100mb
Battleship: 125mb


But that still doesn't address the ridiculous amount of range the ishtar is able to achieve. Cruisers should NOT be able to shoot that far.
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2015-05-21 19:08:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Desudes
link your ishtar fit that is getting these numbers.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?