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[Carnyx] Sentry Drone Adjustments

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Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#101 - 2015-05-21 16:37:36 UTC
There is only one acceptable sentry drone adjustment. Delete them from the game, they don't belong here.

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Valterra Craven
#102 - 2015-05-21 16:39:00 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
You cannot remove sentries from the ishtar. For the simple reason that the ishtar will lose its role as a long range ship. Look at the other HACs.

Zealot = optimal bonus
muninn = optimal bonus
eagle = optimal bonus (x2)
Ishtar = optimal bonus

All these ships are meant for longer range engagements. If you take away sentries completely.. how does the ishtar project damage? Heavies? Lol.

Travel time + missing = no one will use it and it will turn into another brawler, or some kind of weird shortrange doctrine which goes completely against the role of these HACs.

Yes the ishtar is dominating and semi-OP in large scale fights. But removing its only way at projecting the damage will turn it into the drake. Overnerfed and lost its role.

Something to consider. Nerf sentry drones down to medium turret ranges and damage to balance around the other HACs and keepit in the same class. Create a new sentry for BS. Seige Sentry drone or w/e. Give it 400+ sig resolution, more range and slightly more damage. This keeps BS doctrines relatively unchanged but keeps with BS tracking/application.

The only issue i see is with carriers.. Though having 400+ sig resolution will mean smaller ships should be able to sig/speed tank them better than current sentry mechanics.


For starters, what is the range of those other weapon systems vs their dmg outpout? Also you forgot the missle boat.. you know things that have time to target issues. Seems to me if the cerb can cope with this issue just fine then hvys or meds should also be fine for the ishtar. Further nerfs of senty drones affects other platforms besides the ishtar, and those other platforms were already balanced before hand. The problem is the ishtar, not sentries.
Valterra Craven
#103 - 2015-05-21 16:41:20 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:


I never stated sentries were broken, but their use on carriers is questionable and can not be balanced any other way. Blink


Why, there is nothing OP about a sentry carrier.

Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Read my posts. I already think its stupid that the ishtar has access to sentries. We agree on this point. I have no idea why you keep bringing it up.


Don't try to dodge it now. P


The only thing being dodged around here is your reading comprehension.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#104 - 2015-05-21 16:43:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Valterra Craven wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:


I never stated sentries were broken, but their use on carriers is questionable and can not be balanced any other way. Blink


Why, there is nothing OP about a sentry carrier.


Aha. Blink

Valterra Craven wrote:


Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Read my posts. I already think its stupid that the ishtar has access to sentries. We agree on this point. I have no idea why you keep bringing it up.


Don't try to dodge it now. P


The only thing being dodged around here is your reading comprehension.


Woo, edgy and salty. P

Gal didn't know how relevant a Zealot is in an Ishtar discussion, heheh.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#105 - 2015-05-21 16:48:46 UTC
Removed a racist post.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Aijle Mijleroff
Infernal Laboratory
Infernal Octopus
#106 - 2015-05-21 16:51:28 UTC
CCP Fozzie if you nerf centry some people nerf subscription on eve!
So, you smashed display attributes Drones year ago and only nerf nerf nerf. And not have brain fix this


so, CCP Fozzie, I think you not have brain. You know that this nerf kill some kinds of ships?
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2015-05-21 16:55:40 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
You cannot remove sentries from the ishtar. For the simple reason that the ishtar will lose its role as a long range ship. Look at the other HACs.

Zealot = optimal bonus
muninn = optimal bonus
eagle = optimal bonus (x2)
Ishtar = optimal bonus

All these ships are meant for longer range engagements. If you take away sentries completely.. how does the ishtar project damage? Heavies? Lol.

Travel time + missing = no one will use it and it will turn into another brawler, or some kind of weird shortrange doctrine which goes completely against the role of these HACs.

Yes the ishtar is dominating and semi-OP in large scale fights. But removing its only way at projecting the damage will turn it into the drake. Overnerfed and lost its role.

Something to consider. Nerf sentry drones down to medium turret ranges and damage to balance around the other HACs and keepit in the same class. Create a new sentry for BS. Seige Sentry drone or w/e. Give it 400+ sig resolution, more range and slightly more damage. This keeps BS doctrines relatively unchanged but keeps with BS tracking/application.

The only issue i see is with carriers.. Though having 400+ sig resolution will mean smaller ships should be able to sig/speed tank them better than current sentry mechanics.


For starters, what is the range of those other weapon systems vs their dmg outpout? Also you forgot the missle boat.. you know things that have time to target issues. Seems to me if the cerb can cope with this issue just fine then hvys or meds should also be fine for the ishtar. Further nerfs of senty drones affects other platforms besides the ishtar, and those other platforms were already balanced before hand. The problem is the ishtar, not sentries.


Range/dps is only part of the equation. Bouncer ishtar beats zealot on those terms until you actually add transversal, sig radius, fleet warp ins, and tracking into things. Zealots will require good piloting to win, but thats a slower comp vs a faster one for you, welcome to EVE v0v

Also noteworthy: the zealots web lokis will survive, whereas the ishtars hugins will get blapped very quickly if they become a problem


Heavy/med drone doctrines would be far more vulnerable to smartbombing than missiles, which is why no one is using non-sentry drone drone doctrines.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Chip Flux
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2015-05-21 16:56:40 UTC
This is fantastic

Another Nerf

I am so excited.

CCP, you really know how to make this game great.
Lady Aesir
Ghost Recon Inc
#109 - 2015-05-21 16:57:18 UTC
Ishtar

A Cruiser should not be able to field sentries PERIOD
Valterra Craven
#110 - 2015-05-21 17:01:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Read my posts. I already think its stupid that the ishtar has access to sentries. We agree on this point. I have no idea why you keep bringing it up.


Don't try to dodge it now. P


The only thing being dodged around here is your reading comprehension.


Woo, edgy and salty. P

Gal didn't know how relevant a Zealot is in an Ishtar discussion, heheh.


The answer is a zealot isn't relevant to an Ishtar discussion. What a thing is can be pretty irrelevant to what a thing can do, especially when talking about issues of balance. The issue is that the ishtar is more likely compared to a bs given its a capability than it is compared to something like a zealot.
Viserion Pavarius
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#111 - 2015-05-21 17:01:37 UTC
But Warden's will stay untouched? :)
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#112 - 2015-05-21 17:04:40 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Read my posts. I already think its stupid that the ishtar has access to sentries. We agree on this point. I have no idea why you keep bringing it up.


Don't try to dodge it now. P


The only thing being dodged around here is your reading comprehension.


Woo, edgy and salty. P

Gal didn't know how relevant a Zealot is in an Ishtar discussion, heheh.


The answer is a zealot isn't relevant to an Ishtar discussion. What a thing is can be pretty irrelevant to what a thing can do, especially when talking about issues of balance. The issue is that the ishtar is more likely compared to a bs given its a capability than it is compared to something like a zealot.


Hahaha. Big smile

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[Cruisers Online]
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2015-05-21 17:04:44 UTC
At this point I'm still not 100% convinced it's the drones that are the problem. Can CCP release some metrics that show their rational for the changes? I still feel like there could be other ways of addressing this than nerfing the drones. Especially when they're strongest on ishtars and navy vexors and almost nothing else. Not saying they aren't strong when not on those platforms, but rather they are not an issue on any other platforms. If that's the case then why are we nerfing the drones and not changing the ships?
Kaliba Mort
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#114 - 2015-05-21 17:06:17 UTC
Obidiah Kane wrote:
I learn the Ishtar then...
I learn the Loki then...
I learn the Svipul then...
I learn the Domi then...

you are nerfing a lot of ships that new players set as desire targets...


You are forgetting about the Drake. Never not train for a drake!

Ishtars, Lokis and Svipuls are not really newbie ships anyway.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#115 - 2015-05-21 17:06:31 UTC
i think drones need a much stronger dps nerf .. consider reducing the RoF on sentries

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Zafrena Tyrleon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2015-05-21 17:18:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Zafrena Tyrleon
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Zafrena Tyrleon wrote:

You're directing the nerfs to the wrong place. Re-adjust drone bandwidth across the board. Change Heavy Drones to 20 (and Geckos to 40), leave sentries alone and then juggle bandwidth on the hulls.

More work? Absolutely. But it's not a bandaid, it's a proper fix. If the Ishtar (and whatever other cruisers) can field only 4 Sentries, it's not quite BS-level damage anymore.


That would still be a N+1 problem - just bring 1 more Ishtar for every 5 other you field to match old DPS.


The problem with this argument is that you completely devalue pilot numbers. If pilots and ships are free and not a balance point at all, then I guess everyone should show up in Supercarriers instead and we can all go home and not worry about this.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#117 - 2015-05-21 17:21:47 UTC
Xavier Azabu wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
...making some moderate tweaks to sentry drones... Shocked ...massaging drone combat... Cool

Current plan is:
Gardes: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking
Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking
Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking

We welcome feedback as always!


Optimal nerf on Gardes is a little harsh.
Maybe like 15%? No one uses them on towers or in kiting Ishtar combat anyway.

The Curator and Bouncer nerf is needed.

Will this finally discourage people from using the Ishtar?

TrouserDeagle wrote:
Quote:
-25% Optimal, +33% Falloff


why? because of sentry drone optimal bonuses being too good?

afkalt wrote:
I think you're hurting the hulls which are not bonused for them disproportionately hard compared to the bonused ones.

No-one complains about a sentry geddon. The issues sit firmly in the bonused hulls, who will feel this less because of their already huge advantage over their peer group.

I know you like to balance the weapons and not blame hulls but in this case, it clearly IS the hulls.


I have to agree with all three of these.
Bouncers and Curators - sure. The optimal/damage/tracking to the gardes is a bit much, imo.
Also, this is going to have some pretty negative downstream effects on non-bonused hulls. Reducing, overall, the "flavor" of ships seen out an about as those hulls become further sub-optimal.

I'm right behind you
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#118 - 2015-05-21 17:23:59 UTC
Zafrena Tyrleon wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Zafrena Tyrleon wrote:

You're directing the nerfs to the wrong place. Re-adjust drone bandwidth across the board. Change Heavy Drones to 20 (and Geckos to 40), leave sentries alone and then juggle bandwidth on the hulls.

More work? Absolutely. But it's not a bandaid, it's a proper fix. If the Ishtar (and whatever other cruisers) can field only 4 Sentries, it's not quite BS-level damage anymore.


That would still be a N+1 problem - just bring 1 more Ishtar for every 5 other you field to match old DPS.


The problem with this argument is that you completely devalue pilot numbers. If pilots and ships are free and not a balance point at all, then I guess everyone should show up in Supercarriers instead and we can all go home and not worry about this.


There's a threshold, I guess. Ishtar damage with 4 Sentries would equal Eagle/Zealot w/ long-range ammo, but the issue of range for stuff like the Wardens is not resolved. Blink

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Zetheral
Knights Of The Chloroform
#119 - 2015-05-21 17:26:58 UTC
I see all this complaining about sentries and the ishtar and bla bla bla...

While this crazy suggestion would be a lot of work, I think it would be best for the game. Right now we have one level of sentries, which are equivalent to BS size weapons, but we have three levels or traditional drones, light, medium, heavy. Why not apply that same design schema to sentries?!?!?! Make light, medium, and heavy sentries. The current sentries would become the heavy size, and then make the medium for cruiser/BC size, and light for frigs. Scale the damage, range, tracking and HP for each level and then make the ishtar and other ships of its size to use only size of the drone designed for its class.

This would open up the idea of using stationary drones for all kinds of fleets instead of just the niche set up they have now. You would pretty much have the choice or mobility or stationary drones for all sizes. This is a game about choices, having the ability to choose what kind of drone you field could be one of them, and a powerful one.

This would effectively remove the issue that so many are yelling about, which is BS size weps on a fast moving cruiser.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#120 - 2015-05-21 17:28:15 UTC
Looks good. Now the combat drones could do with a look at, a reduction in DPS across the board would be a good start.

Drone damage amplifiers and other such recent modifcations have pushed all types of drone use into a much too desirable place in the meta in my opinion and as is limiting other options.