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[Carnyx] Sentry Drone Adjustments

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Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2015-05-21 15:56:44 UTC
I lost the quote because :eve forums: but to the guy comparing ishtars to zealots:

The problem with your comparison is sentry drones cannot move. Tactics dictate whether this is an advantage or disadvantage, though it should be noted that close range sentries see little use for a reason, as people can move away from them easily. This also doesnt take into consideration that, for example, a linked beam legion is 80-85m sig radius.

For example a beam zealot with IN standard (57+16, 0.037 tracking) doing 371dps (2/3 EM 1/3 therm dmg) into your ishtar fits 54% em resist and 82% therm resist, and 732 sig radius moving at 1578m/s

Whereas the ishtar doing 457 explosive dps (62+76 range, 0.028 tracking) against 90% explosive resist, 84m sig radius, moving at 660m/s

Two entirely different ships. The fight cannot be determined by stats, as far too much piloting is involved in the fight.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#82 - 2015-05-21 15:56:54 UTC
Just reduce ishtar bandwidth to 100 already. Why this hasn't been done yet is a mystery.
Ryan en Tilavine
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2015-05-21 15:58:19 UTC
Ive always trusted you fozzie to not need a helping hand. But here i am. Making my first ever post, since you can't seem to see the forest for the trees. Sentry drones are FINE. Leave them as they are now and just do this...


The Ishtar we all want to see

Gallente cruiser bonus :

7.5% to light, medium, heavy drone max velocity and tracking speed
10% to drone damage and hitpoints

Heavy Assault Cruiser bonus :

5000m bonus to drone operation range
7.5% to sentry drone tracking

375 M3 drone bay
125 mb drone bandwidth


The Dominix we all want to see

Gellente Battleship bonus

7.5% to drone max velocity and optimal range
10% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints

375 m3 drone bay
125 mb drone bandwidth

The sentry drones out of any other ship are fine. Their ranges, tracking, damage, hitpoints, and immobility feel perfect as they are now. Nerfing them will only pound other ships that would use them into the dust. If you want to take 10-15% of the optimal from gardes and give them the same falloff then cool. But leave them be besides.
Azure and Argent
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#84 - 2015-05-21 16:00:30 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tyr Dolorem wrote:
Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem?

Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both.

Because nerfing the Thorax really helped with that Tengu problem.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#85 - 2015-05-21 16:04:03 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Zafrena Tyrleon wrote:

You're directing the nerfs to the wrong place. Re-adjust drone bandwidth across the board. Change Heavy Drones to 20 (and Geckos to 40), leave sentries alone and then juggle bandwidth on the hulls.

More work? Absolutely. But it's not a bandaid, it's a proper fix. If the Ishtar (and whatever other cruisers) can field only 4 Sentries, it's not quite BS-level damage anymore.


That would still be a N+1 problem - just bring 1 more Ishtar for every 5 other you field to match old DPS.

Wrong. It would encourage people to start using other ships again as the ishtar would stop being completely oppressive within its weight class.
Judas Lonestar
Stryker Industries
Stryker Group
#86 - 2015-05-21 16:06:12 UTC
So a drone type (sentries) which arent all that impressive outside of bonused hulls now become even worse?


Fantastic idea. I cant believe it wasnt thought of sooner.....
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#87 - 2015-05-21 16:06:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Valterra Craven wrote:


Quick question. How many sentys can you deploy on a domi?
Quick question. How many artys can you fit on a mael?


How quickly you change the topic from the Ishtar. Smile

Don't try demagogy, it won't work.

Maelstrom has 8 * (1 / (1-0.25)) = 10.6 Effective turrets.
Dominix has 5 * 1.5 = 7.5 Effective sentries.

Each sentry deals more damage than each turret and they are also fixed in range.

A Dominix with 3 DDAs can do 579 DPS at 103 + 42km ranges with Wardens.
For Maelstrom with 3x Gyros and 1400s to reach that range, you have to use Tremor, giving you 395 DPS at 108 + 44 km.

With Bouncers Domi does 620 DPS at 61 + 54km - Maelstrom can reach those damage levels with 50% less range. A Maelstrom isn't a correct comparison due to Arties relying on alpha over DPS.

Try again. Roll

Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:


You're serious aren't you?

Both the Zealot and the Ishtar are Heavy Assault Cruisers. People don't even remember, or know what ships like the Zealot, Muninn are.

Good job, CCP.


Serious about my first question:

"I'm curious, what evidence do you have to support your argument that both drones and hulls are the problem, as opposed to just drones, or just hulls. I've seen no data analysis posted by devs in this thread as to why they think sentries themselves are still the problem."

We all know that the ishtar having access to sentries is stupid beyond belief (and by we I mean everyone but CCP)

Yet, they keep nerfing sentries into the ground to try and fix this issue.

So my question is, what the hell are they looking at that they think sentries are still the problem?

As your post, I'm not sure what point you were trying to prove as I already agree that the ishtar is stupid OP right now.


Into the ground. Right. Roll

Look up the two posts above yours.

Into the ground - http://evenews24.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/zbg9Bbn-1024x702.png

Further into the ground - http://i.imgur.com/XJIWFZY.gif *

*Courtesy of Soldarius - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5616268#post5616268


Into the ground.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2015-05-21 16:07:24 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Zafrena Tyrleon wrote:

You're directing the nerfs to the wrong place. Re-adjust drone bandwidth across the board. Change Heavy Drones to 20 (and Geckos to 40), leave sentries alone and then juggle bandwidth on the hulls.

More work? Absolutely. But it's not a bandaid, it's a proper fix. If the Ishtar (and whatever other cruisers) can field only 4 Sentries, it's not quite BS-level damage anymore.


That would still be a N+1 problem - just bring 1 more Ishtar for every 5 other you field to match old DPS.

Wrong. It would encourage people to start using other ships again as the ishtar would stop being completely oppressive within its weight class.


Why would they do that? It isn't a pound for pound advantage the ishtar has over its class, it is the ability to deal damage from range while maintaining maximal transversal without adversely affecting its own dps. The only other cruisers that can do that are missile boats, which get their dps nerfed to the ground by firewalls.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#89 - 2015-05-21 16:10:41 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Zafrena Tyrleon wrote:

You're directing the nerfs to the wrong place. Re-adjust drone bandwidth across the board. Change Heavy Drones to 20 (and Geckos to 40), leave sentries alone and then juggle bandwidth on the hulls.

More work? Absolutely. But it's not a bandaid, it's a proper fix. If the Ishtar (and whatever other cruisers) can field only 4 Sentries, it's not quite BS-level damage anymore.


That would still be a N+1 problem - just bring 1 more Ishtar for every 5 other you field to match old DPS.

Wrong. It would encourage people to start using other ships again as the ishtar would stop being completely oppressive within its weight class.


Except it doesn't encourage it at all, because fundamentally the problem isn't resolved.

Your think 3% damage reduction will stop Ishtars from being completely oppressive within their weight class? There's at least 40% difference between other HACs! Big smile

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#90 - 2015-05-21 16:12:59 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Can the Domi have access to fighters now, to balance the fact that Ishtars get access to heavy drones and sentries?

Ok ok. I kid. Give the fighters to the sin.
Valterra Craven
#91 - 2015-05-21 16:20:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:


Quick question. How many sentys can you deploy on a domi?
Quick question. How many artys can you fit on a mael?


How quickly you change the topic from the Ishtar. Smile


So change the domi to the isthar, they both field the same amount.

Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:

Don't try demagogy, it won't work.


There is no need for this. Either you can have a civil debate or you can't. Only you decide.

Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:

Each sentry deals more damage than each turret.

Which is by design since you can field fewer of them.
Or do you remember the time when you could field 10 drones and then they adjusted things to reduce lag?

Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:

A Dominix with 3 DDAs can do 579 DPS at 103 + 42km ranges with Wardens.
For Maelstrom with 3x Gyros and 1400s to reach that range, you have to use Tremor, giving you 395 DPS at 108 + 44 km.
.


Or you could just switch to a raven which gets the same range and same dps with 3 bal controls.
Or you could just use tacking computers.
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#92 - 2015-05-21 16:24:18 UTC
this will not damage the ishtar's dominance, as you can still fit BS-class weapons onto a HAC, the ishtar is a T2 Attack BC

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2015-05-21 16:24:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Desudes
Probably worth pointing out that if you remove sentries from ishtars, which you are on the road to doing, you have essentially removed it from fleet applications because lolsmartbombs against drones, unless you give the ishtar the Gila treatment, but if you do that, you end up with extreme conflict between those 2 hulls, which already don't see much use (Gila/non-sentry ishtar).

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#94 - 2015-05-21 16:27:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Valterra Craven wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:

How quickly you change the topic from the Ishtar. Smile


So change the domi to the isthar, they both field the same amount.


Try to understand that Ishtar is a HAC, operating at Battleship levels.

It is not the same "amount".

Quote:

Which is by design since you can field fewer of them.


And that is fine.

Quote:

Or you could just switch to a raven which gets the same range and same dps with 3 bal controls.


Missile fleets are very situational. Smile

I can agree that Dominix at least is balanced in this regard - a Tachyon Apocalypse matches it in both range and damage.

Quote:
Or you could just use tacking computers.


Which can be fitted on both weapons systems.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#95 - 2015-05-21 16:28:48 UTC
Desudes wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:



Why would they do that? It isn't a pound for pound advantage the ishtar has over its class, it is the ability to deal damage from range while maintaining maximal transversal without adversely affecting its own dps. The only other cruisers that can do that are missile boats, which get their dps nerfed to the ground by firewalls.

Its the ability to do all that without significant drawbacks while having far and away huge. Either reduce the raw power or give it real cons, I don't care. It needs a hammer either way.


[quote=Iroquoiss Pliskin][quote=Hakaari Inkuran]

Except it doesn't encourage it at all, because fundamentally the problem isn't resolved.

Your think 3% damage reduction will stop Ishtars from being completely oppressive within their weight class? There's at least 40% difference between other HACs! Big smile

We're discussing a 20% reduction. What's 4/5? I will point out that I'd also accept a nerf to 75Mbit rather than 100Mbit. I'm npt disagreeing with your position.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#96 - 2015-05-21 16:31:49 UTC
You cannot remove sentries from the ishtar. For the simple reason that the ishtar will lose its role as a long range ship. Look at the other HACs.

Zealot = optimal bonus
muninn = optimal bonus
eagle = optimal bonus (x2)
Ishtar = optimal bonus

All these ships are meant for longer range engagements. If you take away sentries completely.. how does the ishtar project damage? Heavies? Lol.

Travel time + missing = no one will use it and it will turn into another brawler, or some kind of weird shortrange doctrine which goes completely against the role of these HACs.

Yes the ishtar is dominating and semi-OP in large scale fights. But removing its only way at projecting the damage will turn it into the drake. Overnerfed and lost its role.

Something to consider. Nerf sentry drones down to medium turret ranges and damage to balance around the other HACs and keepit in the same class. Create a new sentry for BS. Seige Sentry drone or w/e. Give it 400+ sig resolution, more range and slightly more damage. This keeps BS doctrines relatively unchanged but keeps with BS tracking/application.

The only issue i see is with carriers.. Though having 400+ sig resolution will mean smaller ships should be able to sig/speed tank them better than current sentry mechanics.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#97 - 2015-05-21 16:33:09 UTC
Desudes wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Zafrena Tyrleon wrote:

You're directing the nerfs to the wrong place. Re-adjust drone bandwidth across the board. Change Heavy Drones to 20 (and Geckos to 40), leave sentries alone and then juggle bandwidth on the hulls.

More work? Absolutely. But it's not a bandaid, it's a proper fix. If the Ishtar (and whatever other cruisers) can field only 4 Sentries, it's not quite BS-level damage anymore.


That would still be a N+1 problem - just bring 1 more Ishtar for every 5 other you field to match old DPS.

Wrong. It would encourage people to start using other ships again as the ishtar would stop being completely oppressive within its weight class.


Why would they do that? It isn't a pound for pound advantage the ishtar has over its class, it is the ability to deal damage from range while maintaining maximal transversal without adversely affecting its own dps. The only other cruisers that can do that are missile boats, which get their dps nerfed to the ground by firewalls.

The problem is the ishtar has all that stuff, and oppressive raw damage, and minimal drawbacks (if any). Something has to give, I don't particularly care HOW it gives.
Valterra Craven
#98 - 2015-05-21 16:33:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:


Try to understand that Ishtar is a HAC, operating at Battleship levels.

It is not the same "amount".


Read my posts. I already think its stupid that the ishtar has access to sentries. We agree on this point. I have no idea why you keep bringing it up.

Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:

Or you could just switch to a raven which gets the same range and same dps with 3 bal controls.


Missile fleets are very situational. Smile

I can agree that Dominix at least is balanced in this regard - an Tachyon Apocalypse matches it in both range and damage.


So if you think that the domi is balanced vs a tach apoc and a raven, then why exactly do you keep bringing up the point that sentries are broken, when even you think they are balanced against other BS platforms?!

Seriously, the whole point of my posts was to point out that in the current meta the only real problem with sentries is the ishtar, not sentries themselves and to try and figure out what data ccp is looking at that makes them think otherwise
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#99 - 2015-05-21 16:35:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Valterra Craven wrote:
So if you think that the domi is balanced vs a tach apoc and a raven, then why exactly do you keep bringing up the point that sentries are broken


I never stated sentries were broken, but their use on carriers is questionable and can not be balanced any other way. Blink

Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:


Why? Ishtar is bonused in all sentries and all other racial drones.

Nice try.


Then why is the zealot any more of a valid comparison?


You're serious aren't you?

Both the Zealot and the Ishtar are Heavy Assault Cruisers. People don't even remember, or know what ships like the Zealot, Muninn are.


Valterra Craven wrote:
Read my posts. I already think its stupid that the ishtar has access to sentries. We agree on this point. I have no idea why you keep bringing it up.


Don't try to dodge it now. P

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Dentia Caecus
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#100 - 2015-05-21 16:35:57 UTC
Why did CCP fail to seize an opportunity to make sentries a BS only platform, thereby mollifying the the major complaint by the players regrading the OP Ishtar? BS already have built in ( I shudder to use the word) balance: slow speed, deterrence by bomber fleets, other BS platforms can hit as far, etc. Instead of addressing the obvious error, the Ishtar hull bonus/or ability to use what ought to be a BS weapons system , the entire weapons system receives a nerf, the Ishtar is still OP, your customers are still upset and sentries slowly become a less and less viable weapon for any non-bonused vessel.

Fozzie, I implore you to rethink this decision. Sometimes the easy answer is the right one: either reduce the drone bandwidth on the Ishtar to 75mbit or remove the sentry bonus or make the sentries a battleship only weapon system.