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Targeted Cyno Suppression Module
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Alexis Nightwish
#21 - 2015-05-20 17:28:47 UTC
People keep saying "It's easy, just kill the cyno"

Let's do a play-by-play.

Cyno ship lights cyno and calls out "Cyno up!" (takes about 1 second)
Titan or carrier pilots do the right click menu dance to open portal or jump (takes about 1 second)
Titan pilot calls out "Jump jump jump!" (takes about 1 second)
Fleet right clicks titan and selects jump (takes about 1 second)
Ships travel through the jump tunnel/load the remote grid (takes 2-5 seconds)


From the cyno going up, till fleet is landing on top of you, is from 4-9 seconds.

Assuming that you know that a ship is packing a cyno, and assuming you're not busy with something else (like combat?), and assuming your fleet is super pro and has a response time of zero, can you lock and destroy the following in under 9 seconds?

[Maller, Brick cyno]
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Damage Control II

Warp Disruptor II
Warp Disruptor II
Faint Warp Disruptor I

Cynosural Field Generator I
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

114,000 EHP on overheat. You will need to do somewhere between 13,000 to 28,500 DPS (depending on how long it takes for the enemy fleet to get to you) to stop from being dropped. Given that this ship is less than 25m ISK, there's no reason to not use a second or even a third.

So tell me again how easy it is to kill the cyno.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#22 - 2015-05-20 21:07:42 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
People keep saying "It's easy, just kill the cyno"

Let's do a play-by-play.

Cyno ship lights cyno and calls out "Cyno up!" (takes about 1 second)
Titan or carrier pilots do the right click menu dance to open portal or jump (takes about 1 second)
Titan pilot calls out "Jump jump jump!" (takes about 1 second)
Fleet right clicks titan and selects jump (takes about 1 second)
Ships travel through the jump tunnel/load the remote grid (takes 2-5 seconds)


From the cyno going up, till fleet is landing on top of you, is from 4-9 seconds.

Assuming that you know that a ship is packing a cyno, and assuming you're not busy with something else (like combat?), and assuming your fleet is super pro and has a response time of zero, can you lock and destroy the following in under 9 seconds?

[Maller, Brick cyno]


114,000 EHP on overheat. You will need to do somewhere between 13,000 to 28,500 DPS (depending on how long it takes for the enemy fleet to get to you) to stop from being dropped. Given that this ship is less than 25m ISK, there's no reason to not use a second or even a third.

So tell me again how easy it is to kill the cyno.

In that case, is a targeted cyno squasher really going to stop the fleet from bridging through? A lot of that time is eaaten up by reacting to the appearance of a new ship (warp in, or decloak), locking the ship, then throwing the suppression on it.

And this assumes that you're within suppression range. If not, then add time to burn into range.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#23 - 2015-05-21 01:34:26 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
As it is, the only really viable counter to dropping is counter dropping.

Alexis Nightwish wrote:
[Maller, Brick cyno]


Or...you know, not taking obvious bait. Maller is terrible because everyone knows its a cyno. If you get scrammed by something as obvious and slow as a maller, you have bigger issues. You can annoy a cyno maller and blueball his gang by just sending enough kiting ships to tear it apart slowly - it's not going to light unless it has a solid lock on something, and if it does light, you can all just scurry away.

Ship scanners and cargo scanners are also your friends, but again, most bait ships can be discerned more readily through judgement alone.

Procurer? check to see if it has a mining laser equipped. If no, its a cyno.

If you want to make convincing bait, you have to hull tank it so it still goes really fast but has enough buffer to initiate and aggressively tackle something.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2015-05-21 02:13:49 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Or...you know, not taking obvious bait. Maller is terrible because everyone knows its a cyno. If you get scrammed by something as obvious and slow as a maller, you have bigger issues. You can annoy a cyno maller and blueball his gang by just sending enough kiting ships to tear it apart slowly - it's not going to light unless it has a solid lock on something, and if it does light, you can all just scurry away.

Again, I'm not talking about getting jumped by unknown cyno characters in obvious mallers. I'm proposing an idea to deal with known cyno alts that roam about every day in the same ship using the same tactic.

Yes, kiting ships can be used, but the situation is still fairly low risk for the cyno as he can always just drop carriers. And if it's a recon he won't even uncloak without a real target.

I'm pretty sure the maller example was just an exaggeration of the point that you can't just alpha the cyno in most situations, and to suggest that you can is just silly.

To reiterate, the goal here is not to be immune to cynos or make them useless. It is to make cynos fallible so that tactics and supporting ships become more important than remembering to bring ozone and stay within jump range.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#25 - 2015-05-21 02:46:34 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
It is to make cynos fallible so that tactics and supporting ships become more important than remembering to bring ozone and stay within jump range.


They already are. Deny them the drop. Bring lots of yellow jams or just kite the cyno ship. You win? It's hardly an I win button if the maller is jammed/kited and has to panic light, you all warp off, and all the people who were waiting on the bridge have fatigue and no kills for all the waiting you made them do.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#26 - 2015-05-21 02:49:41 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
They already are. Deny them the drop. Bring lots of yellow jams or just kite the cyno ship. You win? It's hardly an I win button if the maller is jammed/kited and has to panic light, you all warp off, and all the people who were waiting on the bridge have fatigue and no kills for all the waiting you made them do.

This is boring for both sides and the lack of real risk makes it a daily recurring experience. I'm trying to liven things up by forcing both sides to consider alternative tactics.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#27 - 2015-05-21 03:43:23 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Cara Forelli wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
They already are. Deny them the drop. Bring lots of yellow jams or just kite the cyno ship. You win? It's hardly an I win button if the maller is jammed/kited and has to panic light, you all warp off, and all the people who were waiting on the bridge have fatigue and no kills for all the waiting you made them do.

This is boring for both sides and the lack of real risk makes it a daily recurring experience. I'm trying to liven things up by forcing both sides to consider alternative tactics.


This is Eve. If you cannot win, than you deny them any satisfaction from the experience.

You are trying to have a personal cyno jammer on your ship. If you want that, stay in high sec or go to WH space.

Having a personal cyno jammer on a ship will not make the game any more exciting for the BLOPS gang that is hunting you. It just gives you another way to get away when you fritter away all the other tools at your disposal (like paying attention).

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2015-05-21 04:01:51 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Having a personal cyno jammer on a ship will not make the game any more exciting for the BLOPS gang that is hunting you. It just gives you another way to get away when you fritter away all the other tools at your disposal (like paying attention).

This still isn't a "whoops, pants caught around my ankles, better jam the cyno" suggestion. People won't fit them to everything on the off chance they get dropped. Highslots are too valuable.

The situation I have in mind is where you know EXACTLY what that cyno alt is doing in your system and why, what they are flying, and what they intend to do with it. This will not benefit people who aren't "paying attention". It will just provide one more way to provoke a fight with them (current suggestions are kite the cyno until you all get bored, dock up until you get bored and log off, or counter drop until the whole region gets bored and unsubs). And the fact that it exists as an option will force the droppers as well as any possible counter droppers to factor it into their risk assessment, either bringing more ships to support their cyno or running the risk of having to abandon it.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2015-05-21 09:15:56 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
Highslot utility mod, prevents a cyno from being lit and/or deactivates an active cyno. Perhaps just "jams" the cyno so that it still has to cycle the full duration but becomes unusable.

Would allow some counterplay to known hotdroppers, forcing them to be more careful in bait ships and hopefully encouraging less one-sided conflict where people are more willing to fight. Probably wouldn't have much effect on large scale capital ops where multiple backup cynos are already used.

Clearly there would be many repercussions - some good, some bad. Some depend on your point of view.

Discuss!


Already implemented it´s called volley damage. Just adjust your damage to volley the ships ;)

-1
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2015-05-21 09:23:08 UTC
I've never in all my time in eve had a bait ship pop before we got through. Not ever.

That solution is like suggesting jumping before you hit the ground will save you from a falling elevator.
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#31 - 2015-05-21 09:37:30 UTC
Tabyll Altol wrote:
Already implemented it´s called volley damage. Just adjust your damage to volley the ships ;)

-1

No need for ECM...just volley them!
No need for warp disruption...just volley them!
No need to rep my friends...just volley the other guys!

Just because there are multiple solutions does not make mine any less valid. Not everyone brings 204 of their closest friends to every engagement. Roll

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#32 - 2015-05-21 09:38:33 UTC
afkalt wrote:
I've never in all my time in eve had a bait ship pop before we got through. Not ever.

That solution is like suggesting jumping before you hit the ground will save you from a falling elevator.


I've seen it happen plenty of times - not often to bait ships, but to BLOPs hunters. Granted, I do not know what caused the problem on the hostile end, but several of my friends have been dropped and killed the cyno ship before the hostile gang made it through. I have also seen it happen when going after a bunch of Skiffs and the horde of assisted drones obliterates the cyno very quickly. Usually this happens to throwaway alts in stealth bombers. If you use a sturdier ship, you don't have the same issues, but you are also not as agile.

Anyone who engages an probable bait ship without expecting an escalation needs to rethink their approach to Eve.

I do understand the frustration inherent behind the OP's suggestion. The hardest part of Eve PvP is finding a way to make someone commit to a fight so you can kill them. Whether that comes with hiding numbers in a gate, on the other side of a jump bridge, in a nearby WH, cloaked, docked, or wherever, disguising your true strength is usually the first requirement for success in Eve PVP.

This module would not make people more likely to get into fights, so it does not solve that problem.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2015-05-21 09:45:55 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
No module can stop people caring about losses more than good fights, unfortunately. Too many people are too precious about "not losing" at all costs and damn the actual fight itself. I'd rather lose a close run 15v15 than win a 40 vs 4. All day, every day.

The crippling irony here is they'll claim everyone but themselves are risk averse. It's a sad state of affairs indeed.
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2015-05-21 10:27:07 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
I do understand the frustration inherent behind the OP's suggestion. The hardest part of Eve PvP is finding a way to make someone commit to a fight so you can kill them. Whether that comes with hiding numbers in a gate, on the other side of a jump bridge, in a nearby WH, cloaked, docked, or wherever, disguising your true strength is usually the first requirement for success in Eve PVP.

This module would not make people more likely to get into fights, so it does not solve that problem.

Thank you for being constructive. I agree with most of your post. As for the last part...you may be right. Perhaps the most risk adverse pilots will simply stop fighting at all. However, I think most would find another solution, whether it is extra support for their cyno or just ditching it altogether and roaming. Hopefully this means more ships out in space flying around and having the potential to make "mistakes" and get content and less sitting docked up in station. And if people are forced to be more careful about dropping cynos willy-nily then there will be more room for smaller roaming gangs that would otherwise find it difficult to operate.

Or it might just lead to mass unsubbing as we all succumb to our true risk-adverse nature. Who knows.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
per
Terpene Conglomerate
#35 - 2015-05-21 10:59:36 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
. Perhaps just "jams" the cyno


i like this part, would be nice to be able to "jam" active cyno so ships that will jump on it will end up in different parts of the grid randomly(aka 200k from cyno) ;)
Daoden
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2015-05-21 13:43:14 UTC
I don't think there should be any module that can deactivate another persons modules (short of neuts or course). if your really worried about cynos that much there are several things you can do to avoid them.
1. as stated before cyno inhibitors
2. High sec if your really that afraid of them
3. WH space
4. a ship that people generally wont drop a cyno on

the problem is it seems you just want to change the game for your own benefit, and while im sure others would benefit as well it takes away from the game.
Lord LazyGhost
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2015-05-21 13:55:10 UTC
Hows about the item does not block them but means they dont land on the cyno but land at random spots in system
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#38 - 2015-05-21 15:51:16 UTC
What is there to stop a ship with a utility highslot from fitting this? What is the trade off? Besides losing a small neut or whatever. Would not every fleet roam with a ship or two that has this module fit?

Stopping or impeding cynosural fields is an interesting idea, but it can't be so easy and guaranteed.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#39 - 2015-05-21 16:32:35 UTC
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:
What is there to stop a ship with a utility highslot from fitting this? What is the trade off? Besides losing a small neut or whatever. Would not every fleet roam with a ship or two that has this module fit?

Stopping or impeding cynosural fields is an interesting idea, but it can't be so easy and guaranteed.


Pretty much this. The most I could see a highslot module do is cause the cyno landing range to become massively dispersed from 5km to (Just throwing a number out there) 500km. This would make it so extrreme sniping doctrines wouldn't simply benefit from using it on their own cyno by having most of their fleet land out of lock range, and it would simply give the defending fleet a few more seconds to react to the cyno as the enemy fleet attempts to warp back to their cyno. However this still wouldn't be a guarantee as something could still land 5km from the cyno. Although will that ship be that blingy pirate hull brawler, or will that be your logi backup?

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Alexis Nightwish
#40 - 2015-05-21 16:35:28 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Cara Forelli wrote:
As it is, the only really viable counter to dropping is counter dropping.

Alexis Nightwish wrote:
[Maller, Brick cyno]


Or...you know, not taking obvious bait. Maller is terrible because everyone knows its a cyno. If you get scrammed by something as obvious and slow as a maller, you have bigger issues. You can annoy a cyno maller and blueball his gang by just sending enough kiting ships to tear it apart slowly - it's not going to light unless it has a solid lock on something, and if it does light, you can all just scurry away.

Ship scanners and cargo scanners are also your friends, but again, most bait ships can be discerned more readily through judgement alone.

Procurer? check to see if it has a mining laser equipped. If no, its a cyno.

If you want to make convincing bait, you have to hull tank it so it still goes really fast but has enough buffer to initiate and aggressively tackle something.

I never suggested the Maller was the bait ship, just the cyno. Blink A more tantalizing ship or small fleet would be used to bait, then the Maller would warp in or decloak and pop the cyno. My point was simply that "killing the cyno" isn't a valid tactic.

Cyno mechanics are terrible, and have been without change since implemented. I just want to be able to roam in LS or NS without needing my own Titan and fleet of risk averse l33t PvPers waiting on standby. So any change that would facilitate that interests me.

Maybe when all this sov nonsense is done cyno mechanics will get a long overdue pass, but CCP has a knack for ignoring glaring problems for long periods of time so I'm not holding my breath. Straight

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
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