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The laser crystals rebalance thread.
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Khorvek
Colear Mining Retrieval and Distributing
#41 - 2015-05-20 21:07:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Khorvek
I see what you're saying.

So on an infinite scale, the lasers do more DPS provided tracking isnt an issue. But if we take the start of the fight to the specific time of the third arty thrasher shot, it does more DPS than lasers in that timeframe because of high alpha, and on the 6th shot the average is lowered enough that lasers overtake them in DPS.

People talk about how eve is better than WoW. I still get one shotted undocking in a frigate if there's a WT thrasher outside. It looks eerily similar to getting one shotted in WoW battlegrounds by a x9 level player when you're x1-4 levels.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#42 - 2015-05-20 21:37:17 UTC
Khorvek wrote:
I see what you're saying.

So on an infinite scale, the lasers do more DPS provided tracking isnt an issue. But if we take the start of the fight to the specific time of the third arty thrasher shot, it does more DPS than lasers in that timeframe because of high alpha, and on the 6th shot the average is lowered enough that lasers overtake them in DPS.


Between the arty hits laser do more dmg, its just that the alpha bring arty back up for each of the first 3 arty shots.
From 2nd and 3rd laser hit is more total dmg than arty have done up until the arty land the 2nd hit, 4th and 5th laser shot means more dmg for laser until arty hit the 3rd shot. then 6th laser shot bring it up far enough that arty do not reach again
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2015-05-20 23:11:35 UTC
afkalt wrote:
I can't be the only one that knows the further away you are, the less tracking matters.

At scorch engagement ranges they have disgusting tracking and DPS.

Take for example an omen and moa. No range or tracking bonuses. Both 5% damage bonus.

Heavy pulse & scorch:
22+6km range, tracking 0.076, 44DPS per turret

250mm railgun (200mm more common fit and fits similar profile) (CNAM):
15+18km range, tracking 0.026, 54DPS per turret

Heavy Neutron Blaster (null):
6.3+8.7km range, tracking 0.112, 51 dps per turret


Thus, at the WORKING range of scorch, next to her peers she tracks like a beast, doing severe damage for that range. In fact it will outdamage and outrack the 250mm rails right out to long point range. Sure, the blasters track better, but at ranges so bad the extra tracking is all but irrelevant. Blasters win <10km away, but of course, at those ranges I can go to multispec and blam, lasers win again forcing the blasters to move to CNAM, which means from 6km to long point end game, the multifreq/scorch combo beats ALL hybrids.

This is why people don't complain about laser tracking, because scorch. Because it is stupid good. I get ~80% of short range paper DPS at long range distances tracking almost 4x as well as long range guns whilst doing more applied damage than both hybrids. And these aren't even ranged/tracking bonused hulls!

Laser tracking would "suck" if scorch wasn't a thing, but it is. It masks any potential issue with lasers tracking almost completely.


Test it yourself in EFT - it's remarkable the "working" range of lasers. A simple Omen and a Moa with one turret each shooting each other.


Also, beams are a different thing. I know. But on a quick compare of heavy beam vs 250mm rails (I stress quick) they're beating rails from 0-60km

Yes yes apples and oranges, nerf apples oranges are fine.

You're comparing midrange weapons with highrange ammo loaded to longrange weapons with shortrange ammo loaded. All I see is that rails should be compared to beams. I see nothing overpowering about scorch.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#44 - 2015-05-21 02:07:54 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:

Yes yes apples and oranges, nerf apples oranges are fine.

You're comparing midrange weapons with highrange ammo loaded to longrange weapons with shortrange ammo loaded. All I see is that rails should be compared to beams. I see nothing overpowering about scorch.

Had numbers. Forums ate my post. Suffice to say that at the end of m4, t2 and faction long point ranges, beams crap on rails for DPS and beat them on tracking.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#45 - 2015-05-21 04:07:05 UTC
It's all about where you are from.

I trained for my race which meant hybrids. I then went projectile because they rule in everything important.

Finally I trained lasers, and find them to be almost completely silly OP in comparison.

With Pulse lasers you are pretty much still in optimal while the other short range turrets are in distant falloff if they can even hit at that range at all. Long range ammo in pulse lasers rivals ranges on the other turrets seen only in the long range versions.

There is a reason to use standard crystals, and that reason is cap use. You want to see the high performance of lasers, pay the drawback with it.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2015-05-21 05:17:47 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
To put things in perspective, who allows a laserboat to dictate range? We're talking amarr ships, since lasers on anything else would be terrible. Amarr ships are the slowest. They can't dictate range, so while you're complaining about how lasers have a long optimal you could instead be using superior speed or webs to easily keep them in range of ac or blaster falloff, at which point the tracking of lasers fails them, and ac and blaster have superior dps.


I'm glad that you're giving a nod to scorch being the only thing that is good about lasers, even if you did dance around it.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2015-05-21 05:20:09 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
It's all about where you are from.

I trained for my race which meant hybrids. I then went projectile because they rule in everything important.

Finally I trained lasers, and find them to be almost completely silly OP in comparison.

With Pulse lasers you are pretty much still in optimal while the other short range turrets are in distant falloff if they can even hit at that range at all. Long range ammo in pulse lasers rivals ranges on the other turrets seen only in the long range versions.

There is a reason to use standard crystals, and that reason is cap use. You want to see the high performance of lasers, pay the drawback with it.


The point is it's too easy to abuse the low tracking of lasers. Amarr ships in general are slow, if you want to get in close and under the guns, you can. Amarr ships can't do **** to stop you, low numbers of midslots plus high cap use means stuff like defensive scrams and usually even webs are right out.

The Amarr ships that actually are fast, like the Navy Omen, are still easily tackled and killed by any interceptor. You can't tackle and kill a Vagabond in an inty, you'll get smoked. Nomen can't hit you at all if you do a spiral approach and then just orbit at 2km.
Devasha Detrasha
Doomheim
#48 - 2015-05-21 06:06:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Devasha Detrasha
Catherine Laartii wrote:
How about since lasers are basically just light-based weaponry, upping their tracking and range significantly while lowering their dps, but increasing their cap usage and giving them a slight penalty to weapon heat damage per usage, same as the crystals? you'd get excellent damage application but they'd be a lot harder to manage.


NAY NAY!! Don't go spouting crappy ideas in thread about lasers!! Lasers are in a fine place as is right now..........assuming you're using Tachyons +NavyMulti.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#49 - 2015-05-21 06:16:05 UTC
Devasha Detrasha wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
How about since lasers are basically just light-based weaponry, upping their tracking and range significantly while lowering their dps, but increasing their cap usage and giving them a slight penalty to weapon heat damage per usage, same as the crystals? you'd get excellent damage application but they'd be a lot harder to manage.


NAY NAY!! Don't go spouting crappy ideas in thread about lasers!! Lasers are in a fine place as is right now..........assuming you're using Tachyons +NavyMulti.


Or you could use small pulse and have the best DPS of any small weapon at short point range.
Or small beams for the best DPS of small weapons at long point range.

Or you could have the best DPS at scram range for medium weapons with medium pulse lasers.

Or truely ridiculous projection with mega pulse + beams and tachs on those things (oracles, NMs, paladins) that can fit them.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2015-05-21 06:58:44 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
To put things in perspective, who allows a laserboat to dictate range? We're talking amarr ships, since lasers on anything else would be terrible. Amarr ships are the slowest. They can't dictate range, so while you're complaining about how lasers have a long optimal you could instead be using superior speed or webs to easily keep them in range of ac or blaster falloff, at which point the tracking of lasers fails them, and ac and blaster have superior dps.


I'm glad that you're giving a nod to scorch being the only thing that is good about lasers, even if you did dance around it.


I know, but you can't change ANY of that whilst scorch is a thing. It gives them too much DPS at too much range for things to change.

And I'm not complaining about long optimal, I said you can't get them rebalanced whilst scorch is a thing and I stand by that. Gut scorch, then the rest can be rebalanced. Until then, you're pretty much boned.

I have sympathy, but that is the reality as I see it.

Tell you what, post some EFT DPS charts showing us how bad they are next to other weapons because in the quick testing I did, they're pretty solid next to the peer group over wide ranges.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#51 - 2015-05-21 08:23:15 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
To put things in perspective, who allows a laserboat to dictate range? We're talking amarr ships, since lasers on anything else would be terrible. Amarr ships are the slowest. They can't dictate range, so while you're complaining about how lasers have a long optimal you could instead be using superior speed or webs to easily keep them in range of ac or blaster falloff, at which point the tracking of lasers fails them, and ac and blaster have superior dps.


I'm glad that you're giving a nod to scorch being the only thing that is good about lasers, even if you did dance around it.


Amarr/Laser-ships that kite:

Beam Confessors
Kiting Navy Omen
Kiting Navy Auguror
Anti-frig shield Zealot
Both Slicer fits
Beam Tormentor
Beam Legion
Scorch Oracles
Tachyon Nightmares
Nano Bhaals
Nano Ashimmu
Phantasms

No, I don'T think standard/UV/Radio/Gamma are never used. They just aren't used on pulse lasers, but that's only the case because scorch is THAT broken. On Beams, you'll see all crystals shuffled around all day, and IN Radio is a more common choice than Aurora in many scenarios due to tracking.

So please no complaining amarr couldn't kite when a significant number of their ships do just that.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#52 - 2015-05-21 11:22:44 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
To put things in perspective, who allows a laserboat to dictate range? We're talking amarr ships, since lasers on anything else would be terrible. Amarr ships are the slowest. They can't dictate range, so while you're complaining about how lasers have a long optimal you could instead be using superior speed or webs to easily keep them in range of ac or blaster falloff, at which point the tracking of lasers fails them, and ac and blaster have superior dps.


I'm glad that you're giving a nod to scorch being the only thing that is good about lasers, even if you did dance around it.


Amarr/Laser-ships that kite:

Beam Confessors
Kiting Navy Omen
Kiting Navy Auguror
Anti-frig shield Zealot
Both Slicer fits
Beam Tormentor
Beam Legion
Scorch Oracles
Tachyon Nightmares
Nano Bhaals
Nano Ashimmu
Phantasms

No, I don'T think standard/UV/Radio/Gamma are never used. They just aren't used on pulse lasers, but that's only the case because scorch is THAT broken. On Beams, you'll see all crystals shuffled around all day, and IN Radio is a more common choice than Aurora in many scenarios due to tracking.

So please no complaining amarr couldn't kite when a significant number of their ships do just that.


A very entertaining list of ships you listed here (especially the nano Bhaal, LOLOL). I'd love for you to post some fits with these ships in a kiting setup pretty please.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#53 - 2015-05-21 11:31:49 UTC
The only real issues laser crystals have that need to be addressed is their inability to be repaired and their ability to subsequently clog up inventory space since they're impossible to repackaged.

Just set it so ALL laser ammo cannot be damaged in the same way t1 ammo is, and give faction ammo a larger cap reduction bonus.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2015-05-21 12:29:40 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
The only real issues laser crystals have that need to be addressed is their inability to be repaired and their ability to subsequently clog up inventory space since they're impossible to repackaged.

Just set it so ALL laser ammo cannot be damaged in the same way t1 ammo is, and give faction ammo a larger cap reduction bonus.


What will happen to the variouls LP stores providing those items? Would't that reduce the demand for those items or do people loot them?
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#55 - 2015-05-21 13:37:13 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
The only real issues laser crystals have that need to be addressed is their inability to be repaired and their ability to subsequently clog up inventory space since they're impossible to repackaged.

Just set it so ALL laser ammo cannot be damaged in the same way t1 ammo is, and give faction ammo a larger cap reduction bonus.



There have been suggestions before on ways to deal with this. One of my favorites was to allow a right click option on crystals to break them down into "[Crystal Type} Crystal Polish". You get a varying amount depending on the size and damage on the crystal being ground into polish, possibly even with a bit of loss. You can then use the polish on other crystals of that type in your inventory to repair them, and ultimately stack them once repaired to 100%.

This way the market remains stable, as you cannot simply make polish and never again buy a crystal, and the crystals can be reduced to easily stackable whole crystals and piles of polish.

Xequecal wrote:
The point is it's too easy to abuse the low tracking of lasers. Amarr ships in general are slow, if you want to get in close and under the guns, you can. Amarr ships can't do **** to stop you, low numbers of midslots plus high cap use means stuff like defensive scrams and usually even webs are right out.

The Amarr ships that actually are fast, like the Navy Omen, are still easily tackled and killed by any interceptor. You can't tackle and kill a Vagabond in an inty, you'll get smoked. Nomen can't hit you at all if you do a spiral approach and then just orbit at 2km


That is true of a one on one encounter, but not every encounter conforms to the situation you describe. Essentially your beef is that Slow hulls combined with long range weapons don't make for good short range brawlers. Lasers have several advantages, either switch weapons or stop trying to play to lasers weaknesses.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2015-05-21 23:53:52 UTC


Its only a matter of time before people get smart and use the superior base speed of other ships to set an MWD and scram to tackle down kiting amarr ships.

Lets not forget resistances are a thing. Hardly anyone shield tanks for PVP anymore, due to base resist stats on the armor. Probably the biggest reason is amarr ships still out there, coupled with how CCP strangely made almost all hp buffer systems nearly equal. Even caldari ships are armor tanking these days, so you know there's a problem with hp buffer balance, if the combined effect of natural hp stat + resists is actually neck and neck competition with an armor/DCU tanked merlin or kestrel.

All you have to do is put one resistance module on any ship in the game for thermal armor, and you've got T2 resists to lasers. More to the point, lasers damage shifts from EM+Therm to pure EM at radio, in addition to a loss of damage for trading range for damage, while also having almost as much cap use as scorch or multifreq, so you've lost damage trading for range, you've also started hitting a natural 50-60% resist, which is basically T2 resist. It should be no wonder T1 crystals don't get used more over scorch, but the thing is that scorch is simply allowing amarr ships to remain competitive. Take away scorch and where would amarr ships be?

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#57 - 2015-05-22 00:11:29 UTC
More balanced. Then it would be time to fix hybrids, so that everything is on a level. Because since projectiles seem like they will remain terribad, everything should be brought down to match.Twisted

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2015-05-22 03:46:17 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:


Its only a matter of time before people get smart and use the superior base speed of other ships to set an MWD and scram to tackle down kiting amarr ships.

Lets not forget resistances are a thing. Hardly anyone shield tanks for PVP anymore, due to base resist stats on the armor. Probably the biggest reason is amarr ships still out there, coupled with how CCP strangely made almost all hp buffer systems nearly equal. Even caldari ships are armor tanking these days, so you know there's a problem with hp buffer balance, if the combined effect of natural hp stat + resists is actually neck and neck competition with an armor/DCU tanked merlin or kestrel.

All you have to do is put one resistance module on any ship in the game for thermal armor, and you've got T2 resists to lasers. More to the point, lasers damage shifts from EM+Therm to pure EM at radio, in addition to a loss of damage for trading range for damage, while also having almost as much cap use as scorch or multifreq, so you've lost damage trading for range, you've also started hitting a natural 50-60% resist, which is basically T2 resist. It should be no wonder T1 crystals don't get used more over scorch, but the thing is that scorch is simply allowing amarr ships to remain competitive. Take away scorch and where would amarr ships be?


This is not true. Almost all small scale PvP is shield tanked, range and speed are king when you're not alphaing people off the field. Even in large scale armor PvP, EM is still often the lowest resist. BS and even capitals running a standard 3 hardener + DCU setup have EM as the lowest resist, as does Gallente T2 with an explosive hardener. Minmatar T2 basically doesn't exist and the FOTM ships (Ishtar, Tengu) have 0 EM resist.

Amarr sucks because they're slow and armor tank. Lasers are very strong, the hulls just suck. It's the exact opposite problem Minmatar has. Great hulls, ****** weapons. Just imagine the Vagabond redone with the corresponding laser bonuses.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2015-05-22 04:01:36 UTC
What would you do then? Grant amarr ships slightly more base armor hp to offset being slow?

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#60 - 2015-05-22 06:41:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
13kr1d1 wrote:
What would you do then? Grant amarr ships slightly more base armor hp to offset being slow?


For starters how about CCP give the Zealot the same speed+agility as the Nomen and a 25m3 drone bay.
And add some optimal range on the Absolution.