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CSM meets CCP Senior Producer Zulu about your concerns

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#421 - 2011-09-14 07:55:46 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Did you vote?


And what else should the CSM do but talk to CCP? Do you think that they should sneak in to the building and code in some features in a daring midnight operation? What timescales are you expecting the CSM to work and elicit results on?


^^ this

People that don't vote have no right to complain. Period.


They have a right to complain, but they don't have much of a case to be taken seriously. Especially when they're so hugely unrealistic and entitled.

Is it necessary that the CSM sign an NDA in order to fully function? Yes, obviously.
Have individuals CCP abused the NDA in a (futile) attempt to spare themselves embarrassment? Again, obviously

So what can the CSM do about it? They should certainly have idscussion about the NDA with CCP, and get a better process implemented. The point should be strongly made that using the NDA to cover up embarassing discussions does nothing but exacerbate the situation and is in any case ultimately futile. Fuckups remain fuckups whether or not the CSM are allowed to publish the "We asked CCP how the hell they ****** this up so badly" minutes.

They might be able to do things like propose that the NDA system be reformed, for example with shorter durations for less sensitive items, and more rational NDA expiry times (eg: CCP plan to make Thullium into the "new Technetium", the bottleneck material in T2 production. Obviously, market sensitive data like this need to be NDA'd, but once the change goes live, there is no longer a need to NDA any discussion about it.

Another example might be to note who exactly in CCP requested that a specific discussion be NDA'd, so that there is an accountability chain if the NDA process is abused: "The CSM questioned CCP about $_GIGANTIC_MISTAKE, but the details were NDA'd at the request of CCP Herpaderpa and CCP Fecalcranium"

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
#422 - 2011-09-14 07:56:10 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Did you vote?


And what else should the CSM do but talk to CCP? Do you think that they should sneak in to the building and code in some features in a daring midnight operation? What timescales are you expecting the CSM to work and elicit results on?


This is actually very tempting... I'll see how doable that is in December, maybe I'll booze up some devs and use their workstations while they're passed out on the floor ;-)

Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#423 - 2011-09-14 07:59:42 UTC
Time for a 'Vote or Die' campaign?

Where is Helicity Bosun....

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Checkin theprices
Doomheim
#424 - 2011-09-14 08:37:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Checkin theprices
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
Basileus Volkan wrote:
Arrogance is usually only seen as such from below.

Ones personal feelings towards a political figure do not determine their competence.
In fact, as far as I am aware, the current CSM has done a lot more than the previous ones.


That's a bit of a side issue, but one that bears repeating.

Having been on all those pasts CSMs (except the first), I am in a very good position to tell you that while the quality of elected members has overall increased, the major progress in terms of ability to accomplish things is because the CSM-CCP process has strongly evolved.

Practical examples:
During CSM 2, communication between CSM and CCP was limited to exactly 1 summit in Iceland and 1 brainstorming session with CCP Abathur and CCP Greyscale. No "pre-meeting", no post-meeting, nothing. Something CSM 2 fought to change.
During CSM 3, communication between CSM and CCP was limited to 1 iceland summit and 2 online meetings.
During CSM 4, we got the stakeholder status that allowed us to fight for the inclusion of "our" items in the release plan (the list of stuff includded in an expansion), before that it was up to devs to pick stuff from our list if they chose to.
During CSM 5, communication was extended to a lot of forum dialog with the devs (the private CSM forum was only used by CSM members before that). We got devs to start poking us about requests that they have while they were developping stuff.
So far, during CSM 6, we got a few of the key devs (or just cool devs) to hang out with us in a skype channel where a lot of discussions can take place, in addition to an increased dev presence on the forums.

The CSM is only as good as its capacity to engage the devs in dialog and give them feedback. Each CSM has added more communication abilities on top of what its predecessor already had, it should therefore come as no surprise that each CSM is able to accomplish more.

Also, while initially many devs were very cautious about the CSM ("who the hell are these players hanging about in the office"), over the terms they've come to accept us as a good feedback tool. We're only as good as CCP's willingness to use us (I think I'll forever have CSM 3 Zastrow's "but please use us as cheap hookers" request in my mind :p)

So, yes, CSM 6 looks set to do a better job than CSM 5, but not as a question of effort on the part of previous CSMs.


So in other words, as the CSM AND players have consistently been getting more of a say in the development of this game, the faster it has turned to dogshit. Not surprising, but the players are the problem.

CCP: Make YOUR game. That's what you did before the CSM. That's the game everyone wants back.
Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
#425 - 2011-09-14 09:03:37 UTC
Checkin theprices wrote:
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
Basileus Volkan wrote:
Arrogance is usually only seen as such from below.

Ones personal feelings towards a political figure do not determine their competence.
In fact, as far as I am aware, the current CSM has done a lot more than the previous ones.


That's a bit of a side issue, but one that bears repeating.

Having been on all those pasts CSMs (except the first), I am in a very good position to tell you that while the quality of elected members has overall increased, the major progress in terms of ability to accomplish things is because the CSM-CCP process has strongly evolved.

Practical examples:
During CSM 2, communication between CSM and CCP was limited to exactly 1 summit in Iceland and 1 brainstorming session with CCP Abathur and CCP Greyscale. No "pre-meeting", no post-meeting, nothing. Something CSM 2 fought to change.
During CSM 3, communication between CSM and CCP was limited to 1 iceland summit and 2 online meetings.
During CSM 4, we got the stakeholder status that allowed us to fight for the inclusion of "our" items in the release plan (the list of stuff includded in an expansion), before that it was up to devs to pick stuff from our list if they chose to.
During CSM 5, communication was extended to a lot of forum dialog with the devs (the private CSM forum was only used by CSM members before that). We got devs to start poking us about requests that they have while they were developping stuff.
So far, during CSM 6, we got a few of the key devs (or just cool devs) to hang out with us in a skype channel where a lot of discussions can take place, in addition to an increased dev presence on the forums.

The CSM is only as good as its capacity to engage the devs in dialog and give them feedback. Each CSM has added more communication abilities on top of what its predecessor already had, it should therefore come as no surprise that each CSM is able to accomplish more.

Also, while initially many devs were very cautious about the CSM ("who the hell are these players hanging about in the office"), over the terms they've come to accept us as a good feedback tool. We're only as good as CCP's willingness to use us (I think I'll forever have CSM 3 Zastrow's "but please use us as cheap hookers" request in my mind :p)

So, yes, CSM 6 looks set to do a better job than CSM 5, but not as a question of effort on the part of previous CSMs.


So in other words, as the CSM AND players have consistently been getting more of a say in the development of this game, the faster it has turned to dogshit. Not surprising, but the players are the problem.

CCP: Make YOUR game. That's what you did before the CSM. That's the game everyone wants back.



Correlation does not imply causation. Get some logic classes.

If at the same time as we get more say on what gets made on the FiS front (read my previous post on the subject), we get saddled with the majority of the available resources allocated to dollies, you can't assume that our say has caused the game to grow worse.

Not only that, but I would agree that it is important the CSM doesn't dictate fully what gets done (see that same linked post).

Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7
Temulkar Blaine
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#426 - 2011-09-14 10:33:55 UTC
"CSM 6 looks set to do a better job than CSM 5, but not as a question of effort on the part of previous CSMs."

Statements like this are utterly inapropriate at this point in time. It is hubris on a grand scale to suggest success when eve is in its current state. It is completly disingenuous to suggest you are doing a good job given the results that we have at the moment which amount to absolutly nothing.

Since you were made fools of by CCP in July, I would save the triumphalism until you actually deliver somthing.

At the moment CSM has not effected any change to CCP strategy or plans in the areas that have concerned the community since the release of incarna in June.

The CSM hide behind the NDA like a shield. In this very thread when faced with pertinent questions about tangible results they either start personal attacks or attempt sarcasm (badly).

The CSM is not an elected parliament they are not your direct representitives, they have no power to effect change. The CSM are a talking shop that are being increasingly used by CCP to deflect player crticism and anger whilst effecting no change.

The fact this CSM is so puffed up with self importance about the great job they are doing is astounding given the current state of the game and relations between the players and CCP.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#427 - 2011-09-14 10:34:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Rodj Blake
Checkin theprices wrote:


So in other words, as the CSM AND players have consistently been getting more of a say in the development of this game, the faster it has turned to dogshit. Not surprising, but the players are the problem.

CCP: Make YOUR game. That's what you did before the CSM. That's the game everyone wants back.


As a player of the game, I do not feel as though I've had more of a say in recent times.

Of course, the vested interests in 0.0 powerblocs will probably disagree with me.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Vaako Horizon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#428 - 2011-09-14 10:42:35 UTC
I did vote but from the start I was aware that it whould not make any difference...
azurisk
Winter Forge Syndicate
Fraternity.
#429 - 2011-09-14 11:00:21 UTC
Two step wrote:


Bolded the important part for you. FFS, we took time off work and all got on planes with 5 days notice to represent you.



Made me lol.
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#430 - 2011-09-14 11:20:42 UTC
azurisk wrote:
Two step wrote:


Bolded the important part for you. FFS, we took time off work and all got on planes with 5 days notice to represent you.



Made me lol.


It made you lol? Can you take some days off from work at a moments notice to travel half way around the world to represent the playerbase of a computer game?

How about explaining this to your family? I'm pretty sure my boss an girlfriend would not be amused!

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

azurisk
Winter Forge Syndicate
Fraternity.
#431 - 2011-09-14 11:22:14 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
azurisk wrote:
Two step wrote:


Bolded the important part for you. FFS, we took time off work and all got on planes with 5 days notice to represent you.



Made me lol.


It made you lol? Can you take some days off from work at a moments notice to travel half way around the world to represent the playerbase of a computer game?

How about explaining this to your family? I'm pretty sure my boss an girlfriend would not be amused!



Then do not run for CSM. Easy as that, i bet the people who are on the CSM would think it's great. If not, they should GTFO.
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#432 - 2011-09-14 11:26:20 UTC
azurisk wrote:

Then do not run for CSM. Easy as that, i bet the people who are on the CSM would think it's great. If not, they should GTFO.


They were never told that they had to leave to Iceland at a moments notice, this is not a normal part of the CSM job.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Temulkar Blaine
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#433 - 2011-09-14 11:39:20 UTC
Look nobody in their right mind is decrying the efforts of the CSM. I certainly appreciate the fact they took time out of their lives to go to Iceland and try to improve this game.

Two step gets uber defensive claiming the fact that they went to the summit should be applauded. It should be.

However, the point of my initial comment that two step was responding to was that CCP did not listen in July. The july summit was an abject failure. The process of communicating with CCP was proven to be fundementally flawed. There have been no improvemets in direction attitude or communication between the players and CCP since that meeting.

I reiterate the CSM is not a paliament it is a talking shop. Unfortunatly some of this CSM seem to be convinced they have more power or authority than they really have.

As for utterly ridiculous statements like people who dont vote cant complain. This is not a democratic nation, power is not derived from the electorate power is in the hands of a game manufacturer. If you play the game you have a right to complain about it and a right not to pay for a substandard product if that is your choice.

And I did vote in the election by the way.
Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
#434 - 2011-09-14 11:45:13 UTC
azurisk wrote:
DeBingJos wrote:
azurisk wrote:
Two step wrote:


Bolded the important part for you. FFS, we took time off work and all got on planes with 5 days notice to represent you.



Made me lol.


It made you lol? Can you take some days off from work at a moments notice to travel half way around the world to represent the playerbase of a computer game?

How about explaining this to your family? I'm pretty sure my boss an girlfriend would not be amused!



Then do not run for CSM. Easy as that, i bet the people who are on the CSM would think it's great. If not, they should GTFO.


Frankly, while going to the regular icelandic meeting is fine (they're a lot of work, but that's what we signed up for, so no complaining), having to go on that surprise meeting was not fun.

First it wasn't an enjoyable subject. Forums are aflame, NeX sucked, then the leaks. Even though we do get along really well with the devs, those are meetings were we lay aside the comradrie, don the "what the F have you done" suit and spend days having strong words against people we otherwise appreciate. 2 days of tense meetings trying to unscrew the situation... All of the time outside of meetings was spent talking about that and that only.

In addition, it's really short notice, many of us were working, telling our employers "sorry boss, have to go to Iceland for internet spaceships" was not exactly the most desirable situation. I'm personally lucky enough to have included the "if I have to go to iceland, you have to let me go" bit as part of my contract negociations with my employer, but for most it meant unpaid leave off work.

So, in that one instance, serious internet business in Iceland downright sucked.
Argue all you want about the merits and accomplishments and purpose of the CSM if you want, but that bit was *effort* plain and simple.

Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7
ISquishWorms
#435 - 2011-09-14 11:45:14 UTC  |  Edited by: ISquishWorms
Two step wrote:


Bolded the important part for you. FFS, we took time off work and all got on planes with 5 days notice to represent you.



Well I am grateful, thank you CSM.

I did not vote for the current CSM, I either missed the voting or I was not playing at the time as I did take a long break from the game, but I am thankful for what they do. I believe that whilst they may not always achieve what we as individuals want (we probably are all after slightly different outcomes) they try their best to represent us as a group and do what they can within the various constraints placed upon them. I do not understand those that complain. If you think you can do a better job and they are not doing it to your satisfaction then why not put yourself forward for the next CSM vote.

‘No, this isn't it at all. Make it more... psssshhhh’.
Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
#436 - 2011-09-14 11:53:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Meissa Anunthiel
Temulkar Blaine wrote:
Look nobody in their right mind is decrying the efforts of the CSM. I certainly appreciate the fact they took time out of their lives to go to Iceland and try to improve this game.

Two step gets uber defensive claiming the fact that they went to the summit should be applauded. It should be.

However, the point of my initial comment that two step was responding to was that CCP did not listen in July. The july summit was an abject failure. The process of communicating with CCP was proven to be fundementally flawed. There have been no improvemets in direction attitude or communication between the players and CCP since that meeting.

I reiterate the CSM is not a paliament it is a talking shop. Unfortunatly some of this CSM seem to be convinced they have more power or authority than they really have.

As for utterly ridiculous statements like people who dont vote cant complain. This is not a democratic nation, power is not derived from the electorate power is in the hands of a game manufacturer. If you play the game you have a right to complain about it and a right not to pay for a substandard product if that is your choice.

And I did vote in the election by the way.


CSM is a democratically elected body tasked with interacting with devs. The only authority we have is that given to us by you and CCP, collectively. The powers we have are byproducts of that. If we talk with devs and tell you "they're going to **** something up big time", you'll rage. If we talk to the devs and they tell us "they're fixing this", even though you (collective) may not see the results directly, you see the direction.

Statements made by the CSM to the public, if not respected induce :rage: and threadnoughts as a result. So it's indirect power, but it's power still.

Oh, and people who don't vote have every right to complain if they so want, and they have the same power we have. It just takes many more of non-voters to achieve the same result than having someone represent you can.

Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7
Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#437 - 2011-09-14 12:05:32 UTC
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:

CSM is a democratically elected body tasked with interacting with devs. The only authority we have is that given to us by you and CCP, collectively. The powers we have are byproducts of that. If we talk with devs and tell you "they're going to **** something up big time", you'll rage. If we talk to the devs and they tell us "they're fixing this", even though you (collective) may not see the results directly, you see the direction.

Statements made by the CSM to the public, if not respected induce :rage: and threadnoughts as a result. So it's indirect power, but it's power still.

Oh, and people who don't vote have every right to complain if they so want, and they have the same power we have. It just takes many more of non-voters to achieve the same result than having someone represent you can.


While I respect the CSM for what they have been doing and support their actions now it is important to note that barely 15% of players actually voted for the CSM (I believe it was closer to 13%?). I did vote for a CSM I voted for got kicked due to something mysterious involving the NDA I never bothered finding out.

The fact that CCP again fails utterly in communicating to its p(l)ayerbase is unsurprising. How are the arangements between Zulu and the CSM regarding a follow up meeting progressing btw. Now that the media pressure is no longer there?

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]
Temulkar Blaine
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#438 - 2011-09-14 12:14:53 UTC
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
Temulkar Blaine wrote:
Look nobody in their right mind is decrying the efforts of the CSM. I certainly appreciate the fact they took time out of their lives to go to Iceland and try to improve this game.

Two step gets uber defensive claiming the fact that they went to the summit should be applauded. It should be.

However, the point of my initial comment that two step was responding to was that CCP did not listen in July. The july summit was an abject failure. The process of communicating with CCP was proven to be fundementally flawed. There have been no improvemets in direction attitude or communication between the players and CCP since that meeting.

I reiterate the CSM is not a paliament it is a talking shop. Unfortunatly some of this CSM seem to be convinced they have more power or authority than they really have.

As for utterly ridiculous statements like people who dont vote cant complain. This is not a democratic nation, power is not derived from the electorate power is in the hands of a game manufacturer. If you play the game you have a right to complain about it and a right not to pay for a substandard product if that is your choice.

And I did vote in the election by the way.


CSM is a democratically elected body tasked with interacting with devs. The only authority we have is that given to us by you and CCP, collectively. The powers we have are byproducts of that. If we talk with devs and tell you "they're going to **** something up big time", you'll rage. If we talk to the devs and they tell us "they're fixing this", even though you (collective) may not see the results directly, you see the direction.

Statements made by the CSM to the public, if not respected induce :rage: and threadnoughts as a result. So it's indirect power, but it's power still.

Oh, and people who don't vote have every right to complain if they so want, and they have the same power we have. It just takes many more of non-voters to achieve the same result than having someone represent you can.


You are not democratically elected you are elected by democratic process there is a significant difference.

You have no power. You can only effect change if CCP listens to you as pointed out by two step. YOu have no executive decision makers, there is no accountability to the electorate, Your mandate is derived from less than 10% of the game population, not from a popular vote.

You are a talking shop that CCP can choose to take account of or can dismiss and ignore when they so choose. You have no electoral power imbued in the CSM as a body to change that.

You may have dignitas and authority from your position as community leaders, Im sure the goons respect mittens after all but dont mistake that for actual power within a game company. The power in a busuness resides with the owners and investors of that businness not with workers committees or customer satisfaction think tanks.

You do not have any power in any discussion with CCP. It is delusional to claim otherwise. You can express opinions, give feedback, communicate dissatisfaction but you have no power.

You can effect change by direct action, blogging, posting here and contacting the gaming press. You should have continued that until CCP were prepared to come to the community as a whole with clear plans on how they were going to address our concerns. Instead you bent over as soon as CCP asked. You stopped all direct action at the drop of a hat and threw away the one bargaining point you actually had going for you.

Get over yourself Meissa the guys with MBA's in the PR department in Rekjavik are wetting themselves that you have fallen for their blag again.
Saerathus
Vocatio Ad Virtutem
#439 - 2011-09-14 12:15:21 UTC
As an aside to the current direction this thread has taken, despite my continued irritation with the CSM being hobbled by NDA nonsense I'd like to register my appreciation towards Meissa and Two Step in particular for actively fielding communications with the players in this thread. Doubtless it's irritating to have to essentially address the same frustration (my own included) over and over again.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#440 - 2011-09-14 12:33:46 UTC
Temulkar Blaine wrote:
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
Temulkar Blaine wrote:
Look nobody in their right mind is decrying the efforts of the CSM. I certainly appreciate the fact they took time out of their lives to go to Iceland and try to improve this game.

Two step gets uber defensive claiming the fact that they went to the summit should be applauded. It should be.

However, the point of my initial comment that two step was responding to was that CCP did not listen in July. The july summit was an abject failure. The process of communicating with CCP was proven to be fundementally flawed. There have been no improvemets in direction attitude or communication between the players and CCP since that meeting.

I reiterate the CSM is not a paliament it is a talking shop. Unfortunatly some of this CSM seem to be convinced they have more power or authority than they really have.

As for utterly ridiculous statements like people who dont vote cant complain. This is not a democratic nation, power is not derived from the electorate power is in the hands of a game manufacturer. If you play the game you have a right to complain about it and a right not to pay for a substandard product if that is your choice.

And I did vote in the election by the way.


CSM is a democratically elected body tasked with interacting with devs. The only authority we have is that given to us by you and CCP, collectively. The powers we have are byproducts of that. If we talk with devs and tell you "they're going to **** something up big time", you'll rage. If we talk to the devs and they tell us "they're fixing this", even though you (collective) may not see the results directly, you see the direction.

Statements made by the CSM to the public, if not respected induce :rage: and threadnoughts as a result. So it's indirect power, but it's power still.

Oh, and people who don't vote have every right to complain if they so want, and they have the same power we have. It just takes many more of non-voters to achieve the same result than having someone represent you can.


You are not democratically elected you are elected by democratic process there is a significant difference.

You have no power. You can only effect change if CCP listens to you as pointed out by two step. YOu have no executive decision makers, there is no accountability to the electorate, Your mandate is derived from less than 10% of the game population, not from a popular vote.

You are a talking shop that CCP can choose to take account of or can dismiss and ignore when they so choose. You have no electoral power imbued in the CSM as a body to change that.

You may have dignitas and authority from your position as community leaders, Im sure the goons respect mittens after all but dont mistake that for actual power within a game company. The power in a busuness resides with the owners and investors of that businness not with workers committees or customer satisfaction think tanks.

You do not have any power in any discussion with CCP. It is delusional to claim otherwise. You can express opinions, give feedback, communicate dissatisfaction but you have no power.

You can effect change by direct action, blogging, posting here and contacting the gaming press. You should have continued that until CCP were prepared to come to the community as a whole with clear plans on how they were going to address our concerns. Instead you bent over as soon as CCP asked. You stopped all direct action at the drop of a hat and threw away the one bargaining point you actually had going for you.

Get over yourself Meissa the guys with MBA's in the PR department in Rekjavik are wetting themselves that you have fallen for their blag again.



You are employing a common fallacy (the fallacy of the excluded middle) in trying to assert that there is no spectrum of influence between executive power and utter powerlessness. It's obviously true that Meissa or Two Step don't have as much power as, say, Hilmar, but it's also readily obvious that they don't have zero power either. It is dishonest of you to try and use logical fallacies to assert that the CSM don't have some power to influence what CCP and the way they do it. Multiple devs have confirmed that they have found the CSM extremely useful in shaping how - and even whether - features get developed.

But it's so much easier to ignore the abundant available evidence and prove that you are just too smart, too cynical, too world-wise to be fooled and spend time running down the CSM instead of supporting them. Do you think that people like you, constantly smacking the CSM and insulting the members make the CSM more powerful or less powerful?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016