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The laser crystals rebalance thread.
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James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#21 - 2015-05-18 14:25:26 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
PvP balance in Eve is very simple. You fly Gallente or you go home. They're so overpowered that there's literally no risk in training for the FOTM here, as in the majority of ship classes they don't only have the best ship, but they also have the second best ship as well. So even if sentry drones get nerfed at some point, Gallente will still be the best at everything.


Here and I thought I was the only one that saw this.

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell us that in niche situation #98798687687 we're wrong, but in 90% of all engagements the statement stands firm. Those are betting odds.

Confirming that with drones fixed, rails and blasters would have only scorch pulses that come close, and that this means gallente needs at least 2 nerfs before it becomes time to neuter scorch and then maybe we will have achieved balance.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#22 - 2015-05-18 15:05:38 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Relative to everything that's not sentry drones, lasers are actually overpowered right now, the problems are:

1. There are very few hulls that cater to the strength of lasers. (read: kiting) Omen Navy Issue and Navy Slicer are retardedly good, because they can kite.
2. Just like every other weapon system in Eve except for light missiles, they're completely and totally obsoleted by sentry drones.


They are only retardedly good when linked, and loaded with scorch.

Which is at least half of what this thread is about.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#23 - 2015-05-18 15:09:34 UTC
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
1150 dps at 58 km optimal with Navy Multi Freq with Mega Pulse Laser II is of course not powerful enough...



It has been established, many many times, that large lasers are actually good.

Small and Medium are what need adjusting, pretty badly. At least beams are decent now even though they wreck your capacitor.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#24 - 2015-05-18 15:17:49 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Why is everyone talking about battleships? You're not paying attention. What are lasers good at? Kiting. What can battleships not do? Right.

Lasers are **** on battleships. Don't compare pulse lasers to neutrons and projectiles. Nobody ever uses those on BS. Compare them to railguns and you'll quickly see how **** they are. A Megathron with railguns and CN Plutonium significantly outdamages a pulse Abaddon at its optimal range, and when using CN Thorium it also significantly outdamages a pulse Apoc at its optimal range. The ability of the rail Mega to deal damage from further away than this is far more valuable than the ability of the pulse ships to deal more damage than this when at point blank range, so there you go.

PvP balance in Eve is very simple. You fly Gallente or you go home. They're so overpowered that there's literally no risk in training for the FOTM here, as in the majority of ship classes they don't only have the best ship, but they also have the second best ship as well. So even if sentry drones get nerfed at some point, Gallente will still be the best at everything.


This man speaks the truth!

You have to really wonder about CCP's favoritism toward Gallente.... And before that it was Winmatar, their ally!
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2015-05-18 19:02:08 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
afkalt wrote:
I don't think I've ever heard someone say lasers have average to poor tracking before, because scorch is that good. Whilst it exists, lasers aren't really 'fixable' imo.


Then you haven't looked at the values. Lasers have good tracking for their optimal+falloff range,but blasters and autocannons have even better tracking for their optimal+falloff range. Go ahead and try to use small pulse lasers at 1000 meters vs an enemy target and you'll see how bad your DPS gets real quick.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Khorvek
Colear Mining Retrieval and Distributing
#26 - 2015-05-20 04:50:02 UTC
I'm a bit surprised people in this thread have said lasers have the best DPS. You don't often hear about coercer freighter or miner suicide ganking fleets. The number one ship for undock games in Amarr for faction warfare is a thrasher. Catalysts have always been considered the gank ship for suicide runs.

That doesn't sound like lasers have the most DPS in the game.

People talk about how eve is better than WoW. I still get one shotted undocking in a frigate if there's a WT thrasher outside. It looks eerily similar to getting one shotted in WoW battlegrounds by a x9 level player when you're x1-4 levels.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#27 - 2015-05-20 05:32:45 UTC
Khorvek wrote:
I'm a bit surprised people in this thread have said lasers have the best DPS. You don't often hear about coercer freighter or miner suicide ganking fleets. The number one ship for undock games in Amarr for faction warfare is a thrasher. Catalysts have always been considered the gank ship for suicide runs.

That doesn't sound like lasers have the most DPS in the game.


Trasher have best alpha, Catalyst have optimal (50% role) + falloff (10%/lvl) bonus to counter the EXTREME low range from small blasters.
Khorvek
Colear Mining Retrieval and Distributing
#28 - 2015-05-20 06:30:55 UTC
That would still mean we'd see amarr ships used for station ganking FW targets instead of thrashers, if thrashers were high alpha and low dps compared to lasers being higher dps. People don't station camp in FW with coercers but with thrashers.

People talk about how eve is better than WoW. I still get one shotted undocking in a frigate if there's a WT thrasher outside. It looks eerily similar to getting one shotted in WoW battlegrounds by a x9 level player when you're x1-4 levels.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#29 - 2015-05-20 07:17:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Haatakan Reppola
Khorvek wrote:
That would still mean we'd see amarr ships used for station ganking FW targets instead of thrashers, if thrashers were high alpha and low dps compared to lasers being higher dps. People don't station camp in FW with coercers but with thrashers.


Beam Coercer does 30% more DPS than Arty Thraser (no dmg mod, where coercer have 1 extra low for more dmg)
Pulse Coercer does 4-5% more DPS than AC Thraser with 4x optimal and almost same falloff (again no dmg mods counted)

Arty Thraser does 70% more alpha than beam Coercer, THATS why its used
Anthar Thebess
#30 - 2015-05-20 07:42:49 UTC
You want to re balance crystals , start with faction ones.
Sansha / blood crystals are much worst than a imperial versions , so you need to bring this stuff instead of buying it from local supplier.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Khorvek
Colear Mining Retrieval and Distributing
#31 - 2015-05-20 07:56:32 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Khorvek wrote:
That would still mean we'd see amarr ships used for station ganking FW targets instead of thrashers, if thrashers were high alpha and low dps compared to lasers being higher dps. People don't station camp in FW with coercers but with thrashers.


Beam Coercer does 30% more DPS than Arty Thraser (no dmg mod, where coercer have 1 extra low for more dmg)
Pulse Coercer does 4-5% more DPS than AC Thraser with 4x optimal and almost same falloff (again no dmg mods counted)

Arty Thraser does 70% more alpha than beam Coercer, THATS why its used


I suppose I'm having trouble understanding why alpha matters when DPS is what kills the other person before you die.

People talk about how eve is better than WoW. I still get one shotted undocking in a frigate if there's a WT thrasher outside. It looks eerily similar to getting one shotted in WoW battlegrounds by a x9 level player when you're x1-4 levels.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#32 - 2015-05-20 09:25:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Haatakan Reppola
Khorvek wrote:
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Khorvek wrote:
That would still mean we'd see amarr ships used for station ganking FW targets instead of thrashers, if thrashers were high alpha and low dps compared to lasers being higher dps. People don't station camp in FW with coercers but with thrashers.


Beam Coercer does 30% more DPS than Arty Thraser (no dmg mod, where coercer have 1 extra low for more dmg)
Pulse Coercer does 4-5% more DPS than AC Thraser with 4x optimal and almost same falloff (again no dmg mods counted)

Arty Thraser does 70% more alpha than beam Coercer, THATS why its used


I suppose I'm having trouble understanding why alpha matters when DPS is what kills the other person before you die.


Alpha is instant dmg, it can kill a ship before there is any chance to rep it.
For the first 3 shots a Thraser will do more total dmg than Coercer in same time (5 shots) and first on the 6th shot will the Coercer stay ahead in total dmg done

(does not account for tracking or range, just pure dmg + cycle time)
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2015-05-20 10:35:22 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
afkalt wrote:
I don't think I've ever heard someone say lasers have average to poor tracking before, because scorch is that good. Whilst it exists, lasers aren't really 'fixable' imo.


Then you haven't looked at the values. Lasers have good tracking for their optimal+falloff range,but blasters and autocannons have even better tracking for their optimal+falloff range. Go ahead and try to use small pulse lasers at 1000 meters vs an enemy target and you'll see how bad your DPS gets real quick.



Precisely - they track like bosses at the ranges they fight at. Because scorch.
Ix Method
Doomheim
#34 - 2015-05-20 10:40:59 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
i think the ammo variance or lack of interesting choices is a problem for all weapons.
penalties like -50% are far too huge and weakens the uniqueness of the gun your putting the ammo in.

This didn't get the attention it deserved. Pretty much nothing would be lost stripping down each turret to have say 4 types+T2. Still plenty of scope for variety and flexibility but far easier to balance reasonably.

Lasers don't need Microwave AND Radio, no matter what you do with them.

Travelling at the speed of love.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2015-05-20 11:18:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakaari Inkuran
afkalt wrote:
I don't think I've ever heard someone say lasers have average to poor tracking before, because scorch is that good. Whilst it exists, lasers aren't really 'fixable' imo.

Scorch nerfs your tracking, though. So i don t understand the point you are making.

And other t2 ammo like barrage and null also confer huge bonuses. Whats so bad about scorch? It operates in midranges as intended of the pulse weapon system.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2015-05-20 11:50:38 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
I can't be the only one that knows the further away you are, the less tracking matters.

At scorch engagement ranges they have disgusting tracking and DPS.

Take for example an omen and moa. No range or tracking bonuses. Both 5% damage bonus.

Heavy pulse & scorch:
22+6km range, tracking 0.076, 44DPS per turret

250mm railgun (200mm more common fit and fits similar profile) (CNAM):
15+18km range, tracking 0.026, 54DPS per turret

Heavy Neutron Blaster (null):
6.3+8.7km range, tracking 0.112, 51 dps per turret


Thus, at the WORKING range of scorch, next to her peers she tracks like a beast, doing severe damage for that range. In fact it will outdamage and outrack the 250mm rails right out to long point range. Sure, the blasters track better, but at ranges so bad the extra tracking is all but irrelevant. Blasters win <10km away, but of course, at those ranges I can go to multispec and blam, lasers win again forcing the blasters to move to CNAM, which means from 6km to long point end game, the multifreq/scorch combo beats ALL hybrids.

This is why people don't complain about laser tracking, because scorch. Because it is stupid good. I get ~80% of short range paper DPS at long range distances tracking almost 4x as well as long range guns whilst doing more applied damage than both hybrids. And these aren't even ranged/tracking bonused hulls!

Laser tracking would "suck" if scorch wasn't a thing, but it is. It masks any potential issue with lasers tracking almost completely.


Test it yourself in EFT - it's remarkable the "working" range of lasers. A simple Omen and a Moa with one turret each shooting each other.


Also, beams are a different thing. I know. But on a quick compare of heavy beam vs 250mm rails (I stress quick) they're beating rails from 0-60km
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#37 - 2015-05-20 14:23:49 UTC
Ix Method wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
i think the ammo variance or lack of interesting choices is a problem for all weapons.
penalties like -50% are far too huge and weakens the uniqueness of the gun your putting the ammo in.

This didn't get the attention it deserved. Pretty much nothing would be lost stripping down each turret to have say 4 types+T2. Still plenty of scope for variety and flexibility but far easier to balance reasonably.

Lasers don't need Microwave AND Radio, no matter what you do with them.

well, projectiles would lose most of their ability to select damage types, which means they would almost certainly need something big to bring them back up to par, like a total undo of the TE nerf.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2015-05-20 14:38:49 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Ix Method wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
i think the ammo variance or lack of interesting choices is a problem for all weapons.
penalties like -50% are far too huge and weakens the uniqueness of the gun your putting the ammo in.

This didn't get the attention it deserved. Pretty much nothing would be lost stripping down each turret to have say 4 types+T2. Still plenty of scope for variety and flexibility but far easier to balance reasonably.

Lasers don't need Microwave AND Radio, no matter what you do with them.

well, projectiles would lose most of their ability to select damage types, which means they would almost certainly need something big to bring them back up to par, like a total undo of the TE nerf.


And the tracking boosted ammo, something nothing else enjoys. And no-one seems to know about.

D-U, webs and scrams with dual 180s on a hurricane has shocked and horrified many an overconfident tackle pilot.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#39 - 2015-05-20 14:39:52 UTC
afkalt wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Ix Method wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
i think the ammo variance or lack of interesting choices is a problem for all weapons.
penalties like -50% are far too huge and weakens the uniqueness of the gun your putting the ammo in.

This didn't get the attention it deserved. Pretty much nothing would be lost stripping down each turret to have say 4 types+T2. Still plenty of scope for variety and flexibility but far easier to balance reasonably.

Lasers don't need Microwave AND Radio, no matter what you do with them.

well, projectiles would lose most of their ability to select damage types, which means they would almost certainly need something big to bring them back up to par, like a total undo of the TE nerf.


And the tracking boosted ammo, something nothing else enjoys. And no-one seems to know about.

D-U, webs and scrams with dual 180s on a hurricane has shocked and horrified many an overconfident tackle pilot.

No one else "enjoys" always being in falloff, with most of their range being in said.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2015-05-20 14:46:51 UTC
Yup. But the tracking boost is pretty huge, 20% as I recall.

[Medium/large] Projectiles are pretty sucky in general though. Probably loosely on a par with missiles of that tier, it's just less obvious because the hulls mask it a little (and RL/HML exist).