Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Pretty much.

JF's are fine. Because I said so.

Actually, I lost weight eating bacon and donuts (40-45 pounds). Cycled ketogenic diets are awesome for losing weight and improving your health.

That is probably the most informative this thread has ever gotten.....

And JF's are fine because I said so.

Wow, a mind reader! I have goosebumps!

As per zKillboard, a total of 1,418 Rhea Jump Freighters have been destroyed to this point, with 12.60 Tn lost in this particular case; It is 682 ships destroyed for the Ark, and 5.88 Tn in ISK value; 534 Nomads have become space dust, 4.63 Tn in ISK lost and finally Anshars have died 1,330 times since the records began in early 2008, taking along 12.53 Trillion ISK in value along with them.

Total number of JF deaths: 3,964.
Total number of regular Freighters killed: 11,986.

Total ISK value destroyed in JF case: 35.64 Tn ISK.
Total ISK value lost by Freighters: 40.7 Trillion ISK.

The average JF hull price for the 2008-2015 period is around 5.7 bn ISK: 35.64 Tn - 5.7 bn * 3,964 = 13 Trillion ISK.

Freighters during the same time averaged around 1 bn ISK: 40.7 Tn - 1 bn * 11,986 = 28.74 Trillion ISK in cargo lost.

Prices taken from Eve-Markets.net for the time period.

You have a funny idea of 'all in agreement'

Read the post above yours and use that as a basis for how much loss is acceptable - keeping in mind it's apparently 'impossible' to lose a JF.....

This isn't about JF, balance sheets or the null economy. It's about fixing a poop mechanic that happens to effect JF (as you and the super hero have pointed out repeatedly).

I'll be honest with you. I want to kill cynoing dreads and carriers. I want them to call in support when I tackle them. I want to fight that support and make explosions.

Your whole premise that all of Eve will suddenly dogpile every freighter and smash them all into oblivion isn't glued down very well. Most of the pvp side of eve wants content. Big bulky loot pinatas aren't really content. They are boring kills. Your overdeveloped sense of self importance needs to sit down and take a rest. JF aren't THE ship that keeps Eve in existence. You guys are just cargo jockeys for the real game. That's it.

Get over yourself.

Hi,
it seems you guys who favor this idea haven't flown a capital at all, because otherwise you would know how stupid your idea is.

First of all it's nonsense not to split capitals into groups because it's the reason why especially JF pilots are against this idea. When flying a carrier you can avoid crowded areas. PVE usage is limited to quiet areas, otherwise you loose them even sooner than you already do. For this purpose you can and should avoid crowded systems. When doing PVP you always fly together with a supporting fleet which protects you.
JF on the other side are only designed to bring goods to places where people are. Telling a JF pilot to stick to quiet areas is like telling a storm chaser to avoid strong winds.
Conclusion: this idea is a direct hit to anyone who must go to crowded areas and can't avoid it because the instant docking mechanism is gone.

Now let's have a look at the defense mechanism. A carrier can be fitted and adapted to changing situations. I can add cap rechargers and warp core stabs for travelling, I can fit a cloak, a mwd which brings me to warp in 9 secs and last but not least I can defend myself in such a ship. Nothing similar can be done with a JF. Its only defense is to dock as fast as possible and rely on the buffer tank for any attack happening during this period.
Conclusion: changing this mechanism would remove the only defense a JF currently has, another reason why any JF pilot doesn't like this idea.

Talking about price:
A JF costs 2-3x more than a fitted carrier and 30x more than a fitted astero - you don't want to lose it.

The "free money with no risk" can only be considered as a joke. There is no calculation how safe it is to use such a ship. All your "facts" rely on some observations and zkillboard shows that this shiptype can and is attacked. What you also forget is that you don't earn money by moving stuff from station A to station B. You make money selling items. So if you hate people who make money without risk, why don't you bring up ideas to eliminate station trading instead of thinking about funny ideas which would make one ship class obsolete?


Last but not least: Considering this mechanism here as "broken" only shows you have no clue about game mechanisms. Every ship is invulnerable as long as you don't make a mistake and use it in the wrong way.

These complaints sound like opportunities for corp and alliance members to work together doing something more than gate camps or offensive roams to me. What if you flood a system with combat ships before you jump a freighter in? What if your teammates create some sort of distraction in system? What if you jump into an adjacent system and offload cargo into bloackade runners, DSTs, or just T-1 cargo ships? Coordination and cooperation!

Let me repeat it for the ones who are a bit slower in understanding things.

The advantage of being able to appear wherever they want (cynos and capitals) is countered by the disadvantage that the entry point must be launched before they jump and this point is visible and warpable to everyone. Other ships now have the disadvantage to use gates when entering a system but the advantage of not announcing their entry point.

-> So this is in balance.

All ship types now share the same feature of being able to immediately dock into a station when they reach the docking range, no matter if entering this range by using a cyno or by warping to the station from a location in the system. Both methods to dock are bullet proof, you can't be killed as long as you don't make a stupid error doing this.

-> Also in balance

If you now want to introduce something which changes this mechanism for one class (cynos/capitals) then you have to do the same for the rest - to keep the balance.

Your idea to forbid cynos around stations forces capital pilots to run through an additional flight phase during which they have to expose their ships to enemy fire. It's only fair to use a similar same approach then for any other ship type and also add some risks here.

One idea would be to force them to slow boat 15km until they reach the docking range of the station. Another idea would be to for them to slow boat 15km until they reach a jump gate and another one to drop the initial cloak so they can be warp scrambled immediately. These restrictions should only apply to non capital ships.

All ideas offer an attacker an additional time frame to find and kill them - which was and is the intention of this thread, but only for capitals so far.

So choose whatever you want as "improvement" but don't try to change a balanced mechanism into an unbalanced one just because you would like to kill a specific ship type and in the current situation you are only too dumb to do what others can do: shoot them.

1. When you haul billions in goods around from one regional market to another or millions of m3's around from source to the point where it is utilized, you are doing PVP. I would call it market PVP or even economic PVP, but that belittles it. What you are really doing is sustatining a war effort. A titan can't normally do its job without a support fleet. Should a jump freighter, doing the economic equivalent of doomsdaying an enemy, be able to operate without a support fleet?
2. Storm chasers sometimes get killed by the wind . . . and the wind isn't even TRYING to kill them. And, if they don't get killed by the wind, it's probably because they are smart enough not to dive head first into the storm. Can you guess what would happen if they drove into the middle of a tornado? Probably the same thing that should happen to your jump freighter if you cyno'ed into a hostile system without support.
3. A carrier is meant to operate in space. It doesn't do anything while docked. And, even being adaptable, they still die just doing what they were intended to do, without even having to make any sort of mistake or suffer some misfortune. A hostile player or group can just kill it while it is trying to do its job.
4. Nobody wants to lose a ship. What does that have to do with being invulnerable during the normal use of your ship?
5. Nothing is perfectly safe so long as people are involved. People can die riding their skateboard down the street. Air travel is the safest manner of traveling, statistically, yet even airliners crash sometimes. It's not evidence that skateboarding or flying on a commercial jet are dangerous. It is only evidence that people are dangerous, even to themselves. I'm sure that someone at some time has accidentally one of his own clones by clone jumping. That doesn't mean clone jumping has an "acceptable" level of risk.
6. Should any ship be invulnerable during normal and effective use? Recall the sentry drone/POS shield exploit where drone boats were making use of their drones from behind POS shields. CCP was threatening to BAN people. But your big, slow, speshul fairy boat gets to be invulnerable while you relentlessly reinforce the blue donut? **** that.
7. Are you kidding? The gate is a warpable celestial that is on at least one of peoples overview tabs, generally. There are rarely more than 3 or 4 gates in a system (versus how many stations), and traffic usually flows predictably. Couple that with the fact that you spawn 12 km from the inbound gate and, yeah, lots of people die to gate camps. If you think it's such a balanced mechanic, then why don't you use it instead of cynoing your jump freighter around?
As for being invulnerable by warping to 0km . . . warping to 0km could land you up to 2.5km away from your intended position. And, do you know what can happen in that last 2.5km before you reach the station?
8. Only ships with jump drives (or ships using jump portals) can "jump into the docking range of a station". Do you support the idea of putting gates and stations right next to eachother? If not, then your point is moot.
9. Jump gates are on most peoples' overview. Cynos are not, especially before and after the cynoing ship did his job (i.e. when there is no cyno lit). If you have a problem with warping to 0km, that's probably an issue for a separate thread. Whatever your suggestion, I just hope it applies to all ships and players equally.