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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Fixing Mines.

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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#41 - 2015-05-16 01:22:00 UTC
Deep Nine wrote:
This thread has already worked the mechanic of mines down to a foundation in which it can be applicable.

Please reread the entire thread.

That is your opinion anfd if you would read the posts your are condemning you would realize that there are many others here that agree with me in basic concept.
Deep Nine
Vigilante Carebears
#42 - 2015-05-16 02:08:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Deep Nine
Donnachadh wrote:
Deep Nine wrote:
This thread has already worked the mechanic of mines down to a foundation in which it can be applicable.

Please reread the entire thread.

That is your opinion anfd if you would read the posts your are condemning you would realize that there are many others here that agree with me in basic concept.


It is stated fact. I condemned nothing, or consulted it. Having alts or friends doesn't make you right.

Several aspects of this thread have determined many improvements and applicable suggestions to bringing back a once popular idea. You should redact retrograde statements and exchange them for progressive suggestions instead of simply making false implications, lying by omission, and attempting weakly to bash solid ideas meant to progress PvP, otherwise they will be dismissed with the same disregard they are presented with.

If you actually understood what I just said in your mother tongue, try harder instead of just being stagnant, it will serve the game and others much better, which of course, is this purpose of this forum, not your feelings, not trolling, the exchange of ideas and suggestions for the sake of EvE.

Also, please cite any actual reasons for why mines, cant, wont, shouldn't, work out the way the suggestions have been presented or its back to reddit or SA you go, because you wont be responded to here, at least by me.

This was a courtesy.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#43 - 2015-05-16 02:30:45 UTC
Because goons.
Not actually goon hating but as has been mentioned, the extreme circumstances are normal in EVE, so if the system breaks with extreme uses it's a flawed system.
Also if you have to so heavily regulate the system to attempt to stop the extreme uses, you are designing an overly complex system that will not be easily understandable, and that is bad.
And runtime on them is also bad.
Deep Nine
Vigilante Carebears
#44 - 2015-05-16 12:56:38 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Because goons.
Not actually goon hating but as has been mentioned, the extreme circumstances are normal in EVE, so if the system breaks with extreme uses it's a flawed system.
Also if you have to so heavily regulate the system to attempt to stop the extreme uses, you are designing an overly complex system that will not be easily understandable, and that is bad.
And runtime on them is also bad.


Goons aren't an argument and matter less by the day, though perhaps they are a cause for many broken game mechanics and abuse of said mechanics. There is something to be said about that, but not here.

We've established how they can be applied. Mines aren't going to break EvE. We suggested regulating mines, within reason, along the same lines smartbombs cant be fired within certain range of stations, to prevent abuse. It was abuse that broke the mechanic in the first place, so it necessitates regulation.

The design proposed for mines is not overly complex, this entire thread is proof. Stating that mines are not understandable without an explanation is not understandable, and that is without merit.

The runtime on them is none existent because they cannot currently be used.

We actually need further information on why these mechanics cannot be applied, as it stands, there is nothing wrong with a vast majority of what several people have suggested. Goons not liking it because it isent on their personal agenda or their CSM didn't suggest it, is not a reason, its a flimsy unjustifiable excuse.
Deep Nine
Vigilante Carebears
#45 - 2015-05-17 01:05:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Deep Nine
(Updated from Original Post.)

Bringing back Mines has been spoken about but not properly discussed or proposed.

Limiting amount that can be placed, restricting security they can be placed in, setting them to become inert after a timer expires, the distance they can be placed from structures, and spacing limitations, are all possible ways of making Mines practical to use without creating server clutter and allowing abuse.

This is a refined list of parameters for the new mines based on the data collected from this thread.

Placement will require stealth bombers with a specialized launcher for mines.
The amount that can be placed should be limited to 1 mine per placement, which can be placed via a specialized launcher with a loading cap of 3. Like some deployables, they have a placement time, which will be 15 seconds, after which they become live.

Restricted security to nullsec only and possibly low sec, but doubtful. High sec placement will be prohibited. Wormhole space will be included in placement capability.

A timer of 1 hour will be effective in the determent of their placement and then leaving system. When the timer expires the mine will be rendered inert and can be scoop up by any player. The mine can be reactivated, or the timer refreshed by the pilot who placed it, so long as they are on grid to reactivate the mine, it can be done remotely within 200k of the mine.

Cost [/u ]should be prohibitive, 1 million isk starting, or more expensive, this would deter their waste and leaving them behind in mass, while providing possible income for salvage operations that wish to retrieve inert abandoned mines. After this the price will rise per demand.

Distance will be 5k from station, 20k from gates, 3,500 meters from other deployables and other mines, 10k from POS, 2,500 meters from custom offices, And 7,500 meters from Wormholes.

Damage will be 100 for small mines, 200 for medium, and 300 for large. 5 types will be available, one for each classification of damage, and one additional type of mine for energy neutralization, for which the cap drain will vary, as well, depending on the size of the mine, my recommendation is to make a small, medium, large, and X-L, all of which should be developed based on current stats of ship classifications.

AOE of 3,000 meters with an activation range of 250 meters.

[u]Hitpoints and tracking The mines should have a very low signature radius, thus be difficult to track and take an extensive amount of time, leaving the attacking should vulnerable to enemies that are on grid. They should have a fair amount of HP to avoid being instantly glitterized upon firing.

These are the new specs based on all information gathered by multiple sources in this thread.
Cassandra Opium
The Opium Sisters
#46 - 2015-05-17 11:27:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassandra Opium
the distance and AOE actually make sense, the placement and security are solid, the cost will of course be adjusted by players, the damage is reasonable, and the timer is a must. nice idea on allowing it to be salvaged, i really liked that one.
Lucious Lyon
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2015-05-17 16:57:16 UTC
Deep Nine wrote:
This is a refined list of parameters for the new mines based on the data collected from this thread.

Placement will require stealth bombers with a specialized launcher for mines.
The amount that can be placed should be limited to 1 mine per placement, which can be placed via a specialized launcher with a loading cap of 3. Like some deployables, they have a placement time, which will be 15 seconds, after which they become live.

Restricted security to nullsec only and possibly low sec, but doubtful. High sec placement will be prohibited. Wormhole space will be included in placement capability.

A timer of 1 hour will be effective in the determent of their placement and then leaving system. When the timer expires the mine will be rendered inert and can be scoop up by any player. The mine can be reactivated, or the timer refreshed by the pilot who placed it, so long as they are on grid to reactivate the mine, it can be done remotely within 200k of the mine.

Cost should be prohibitive, 1 million isk starting, or more expensive, this would deter their waste and leaving them behind in mass, while providing possible income for salvage operations that wish to retrieve inert abandoned mines

Distance will be 5k from station, 20k from gates, 3,500 meters from other deployables and other mines, 10k from POS, 2,500 meters from custom offices, And 7,500 meters from Wormholes.

Damage will be 100 for small mines, 200 for medium, and 300 for large. 5 types will be available, one for each classification of damage, and one additional type of mine for energy neutralization, for which the cap drain will vary, as well, depending on the size of the mine, my recommendation is to make a small, medium, large, and X-L, all of which should be developed based on current stats of ship classifications.

AOE of 3,000 meters with an activation range of 250 meters.

The mines will be invulnerable to all damage with the exception of smartbombs and the Entosis link module.

These are the new specs based on all information gathered by multiple sources in this thread.

Thoughts?


Dats it main. that works, nice
Olivias Lahoe
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2015-05-18 02:12:40 UTC
Yes and Yes.

It's a great idea and it looks like you actually worked out the mechanics. really what it needs is the devs to take notice, which im sure they are aware by now.

How do you find out if it is an acceptable idea anyway?
Mr Thicke
Black Market Imperium
#49 - 2015-05-18 14:48:04 UTC
Olivias Lahoe wrote:
Yes and Yes.

It's a great idea and it looks like you actually worked out the mechanics. really what it needs is the devs to take notice, which im sure they are aware by now.

How do you find out if it is an acceptable idea anyway?


from wht I can see you have to keep it on the forum long enough to get enough views and likes before someone in authority actually picks up the idea, but I don't really know.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#50 - 2015-05-18 15:05:20 UTC
New mines help reinforce the couple of natural chokepoints too far to be bridged by the neutered capitals beyond much hope of anything not an inty or nullified t3 surviving when you actually bubble in depth, with a strong mine field and a tender to reactivate all the mines. 200 or so KM of mine field with bubble to navigate, with a tender on grid but cloaked and so able to call in reinforcements to nuke anything trying to navigate the field and the mines themselves making it almost impossible to survive a speed run.

Great plan for reinforcing natural choke points. Still a bit too exploitable, but getting there. Way too regulated to be an easy push.

Also, do not know if want.jpg.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2015-05-18 15:10:55 UTC
Olivias Lahoe wrote:
How do you find out if it is an acceptable idea anyway?


Given the very recent precedent of remote killing ()skynet) being removed.....I'd say you'e on a hiding to nothing unless you can justify/defend killing people whilst you're not there.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2015-05-18 15:12:27 UTC
Deep Nine wrote:
...
Cost should be prohibitive, 1 million isk starting, or more expensive, this would deter their waste and leaving them behind in mass, while providing possible income for salvage operations that wish to retrieve inert abandoned mines

...

The mines will be invulnerable to all damage with the exception of smartbombs and the Entosis link module.

...


That cost scale is in no way prohibitive and why would something designed to explode in some way or another be immune to anything but smart bombs and Jamie's magic torch?
Deep Nine
Vigilante Carebears
#53 - 2015-05-18 20:04:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Deep Nine
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Deep Nine wrote:
...
Cost should be prohibitive, 1 million isk starting, or more expensive, this would deter their waste and leaving them behind in mass, while providing possible income for salvage operations that wish to retrieve inert abandoned mines...
The mines will be invulnerable to all damage with the exception of smartbombs and the Entosis link module.
...


That cost scale is in no way prohibitive and why would something designed to explode in some way or another be immune to anything but smart bombs and Jamie's magic torch?


You've made a good point and this is how progress is made. They should be able to be destroyed, but have an extremely low mass and thus the targeting time of the mines will take a great deal longer, leaving the ship that is looking to destroy them exposed to enemies present on grid. Long tracking time solves this issue.

The price may need adjustment. However, if the price of the item is the only critic you can offer, then you have inadvertently pointed out, that we have made an enormous amount of progress in perfecting the mechanic. We are fortunate that price is the only thing left to negotiate now. Supply and demand will cause the price to rise, the price I recommended was just a reference point.

We should start the price off reasonable and let the players decide. The mines should have a very low signature radius and thus take a long time to track.

Thank you for your help.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2015-05-18 20:11:28 UTC
Deep Nine wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Deep Nine wrote:
...
Cost should be prohibitive, 1 million isk starting, or more expensive, this would deter their waste and leaving them behind in mass, while providing possible income for salvage operations that wish to retrieve inert abandoned mines...
The mines will be invulnerable to all damage with the exception of smartbombs and the Entosis link module.
...


That cost scale is in no way prohibitive and why would something designed to explode in some way or another be immune to anything but smart bombs and Jamie's magic torch?


You've made a good point and this is how progress is made. They should be able to be destroyed, but have an extremely low mass and thus the targeting time of the mines will take a great deal longer, leaving the ship that is looking to destroy them exposed to enemies present on grid. Long tracking time solves this issue.

The price may need adjustment. However, if the price of the item is the only thing you can critic you can offer, then you have inadvertently pointed out, that we have made an enormous amount of progress in perfecting the mechanic. We are fortunate that price is the only thing left to negotiate now. Supply and demand will cause the price to rise, the price I recommended was just a reference point.

We should start the price off reasonable and let the players decide. The mines should have a very low signature radius and thus take a long time to track.

Thank you for your help.


Sorry, they were the first two things that leapt out at me whilst in work. In addition to that these would be spammed to death, have issues with killing all and sundry on the way by, all the other reasons that these were removed originally I just can't see this being workable.

Deep Nine
Vigilante Carebears
#55 - 2015-05-18 20:31:22 UTC
Quote:
Sorry, they were the first two things that leapt out at me whilst in work. In addition to that these would be spammed to death, have issues with killing all and sundry on the way by, all the other reasons that these were removed originally I just can't see this being workable.


You need to reread the thread. We've already solved the problem of mines being spammed.

Thanks again.
Earl Von Sandwich
Doomheim
#56 - 2015-05-19 01:38:31 UTC
+1
Dagger Micstilson
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2015-05-19 11:53:10 UTC
/thread solved every problem with mines.

+1
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#58 - 2015-05-19 13:19:58 UTC
All of your adjustments and you still have not addressed several key but fundamentally important questions.

CCP wants player to be present and accounted for in game when they are credited with a kill, something your plan does not account for. Drop mine, log oof, come back next day to read kill mail from 30 minutes after you logged off.

CCP wants players to be present and accounted for in game and on grid when they are credited with a kill, again this is something your plan does not take into account. Drop mine, warp 20 or 30 jumps away and read kill mail from that mine you laid.

I do have to credit you, your current rework MAY have some minimal affect on the server lag issue but overall this still gets a resounding no way from me.
Deep Nine
Vigilante Carebears
#59 - 2015-05-19 17:28:16 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
All of your adjustments and you still have not addressed several key but fundamentally important questions.

CCP wants player to be present and accounted for in game when they are credited with a kill, something your plan does not account for. Drop mine, log oof, come back next day to read kill mail from 30 minutes after you logged off.

CCP wants players to be present and accounted for in game and on grid when they are credited with a kill, again this is something your plan does not take into account. Drop mine, warp 20 or 30 jumps away and read kill mail from that mine you laid.

I do have to credit you, your current rework MAY have some minimal affect on the server lag issue but overall this still gets a resounding no way from me.


We've addressed all fundamental questions, saying otherwise doesen't make it so. Since you speak for all of CCP and they have obviously given you permission to speak on their behalf, I will address these concerns that they have.

Dropping off a mine wouldent kill anything, not even a pod, although it would critically wound it, maybe. This logic is flawed but chanted as a mantra.

You've repeated yourself again, although this means nothing. Dropping a mine and warping 30 jumps away, while this still wouldent produce a kill, unless of course the pilot killed themselves on purpose by hitting every mine they came across, would render the mine inert by that time frame anyway, once again, flawed logic.

My work destroyed the server lag problem. Once again, you are skipping enormous portions of the thread and lying by omission.

However, since you have spoken with CCP and they have appointed you their representative to inform me of their problems with my presentation, please let them know that a possible suggestion to solve this issue (if indeed it is one) would be to make a mechanic that renders the mines inert when the pilot leaves system, although, I doubt this would be necessary, as has been explain a half dozen times previously.

Once again, you have provided an opportunity to improve the refinement of this feature and showed that it is almost complete in its development.

Thank You.
Dradis Aulmais
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2015-05-19 17:42:11 UTC
How about mines being part of the citadel and structure defense can only be active near certain structures and deployed by the owners.

Dradis Aulmais, Federal Attorney Number 54896

Free The Scope Three