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Intergalactic Summit

 
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[P.P.C.] Announcement of Pakhshi Peace Conference
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Aedre Lafisques
Nadire Security Consultants
Federation Peacekeepers
#181 - 2015-05-18 19:06:52 UTC
Che Biko wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Thankfully today was the day that a Delegate from the Sanity Coalition came to the conference and we have purged the balance of that crap from the commission lists.

Heheh.
I feel like I have to make a minor correction, in order to not have myself or other "sane" delegates feel insulted:
That day was the day that that Delegate was able to convince a majority on the sanity of her objections. Most of the "crap" you refer to initially passed with only a small majority, 5-4.


Well, we have since changed the voting system and had a revote on all affected topics, so the result is best called as it stands, rather than at that time. It's been a very rough week for all of us, I think.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#182 - 2015-05-18 23:22:19 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
*snip*

Thank you for actually providing a real answer, though I still have an issue with your explanation.
You talk about 'asking the other side what would make them happy' yet again I point to who the delegates are. Capsuleers, you are probably one of the most involved 'delegates' in militia affairs, as yours is a name I know. And you are right about how the Empires could end it.

But the problem is.... the other side isn't capsuleers for the most part. It's all the people you haven't invited, all those baseliners. Something that will make an independent capsuleer (And I use independent to say we pay our own licenses, not the Empires paying for us like the Navy Capsuleers have) delegate happy is entirely different to what will make a baseliner happy. And this means you'll be coming to false conclusions.

But again, thank you for actually bothering to answer properly, and thankyou to the other person above you who admitted that unless the Empires chose to take things on board, absolutely nothing will happen. It's nice to see honest answers that don't tiptoe around such points and pretend.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#183 - 2015-05-18 23:26:31 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
*snip*

Thank you for actually providing a real answer, though I still have an issue with your explanation.
You talk about 'asking the other side what would make them happy' yet again I point to who the delegates are. Capsuleers, you are probably one of the most involved 'delegates' in militia affairs, as yours is a name I know. And you are right about how the Empires could end it.

But the problem is.... the other side isn't capsuleers for the most part. It's all the people you haven't invited, all those baseliners. Something that will make an independent capsuleer (And I use independent to say we pay our own licenses, not the Empires paying for us like the Navy Capsuleers have) delegate happy is entirely different to what will make a baseliner happy. And this means you'll be coming to false conclusions.

But again, thank you for actually bothering to answer properly, and thankyou to the other person above you who admitted that unless the Empires chose to take things on board, absolutely nothing will happen. It's nice to see honest answers that don't tiptoe around such points and pretend.


You're right that my opposite numbers are capsuleers but they will be, I hope, Gallente capsuleers who can maybe explain from their cultural context why they think they deserve to get away with stealing my homeworld. And hopefully I can explain why it's not happening and maybe if we can find a common solution that WE agree with, it'll be one that the baseliners agree with.

You're totally right, though. This thing WILL be decided by the baseliners - all we can hope to do is inspire them.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#184 - 2015-05-18 23:51:26 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
stuff.

It just seems..... Very ego driven.

What movement in the history of mankind wasn't?

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#185 - 2015-05-19 00:24:26 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
*snip*

Thank you for actually providing a real answer, though I still have an issue with your explanation.
You talk about 'asking the other side what would make them happy' yet again I point to who the delegates are. Capsuleers, you are probably one of the most involved 'delegates' in militia affairs, as yours is a name I know. And you are right about how the Empires could end it.

But the problem is.... the other side isn't capsuleers for the most part. It's all the people you haven't invited, all those baseliners. Something that will make an independent capsuleer (And I use independent to say we pay our own licenses, not the Empires paying for us like the Navy Capsuleers have) delegate happy is entirely different to what will make a baseliner happy. And this means you'll be coming to false conclusions.

But again, thank you for actually bothering to answer properly, and thankyou to the other person above you who admitted that unless the Empires chose to take things on board, absolutely nothing will happen. It's nice to see honest answers that don't tiptoe around such points and pretend.


Allow me to apologize to you publicly, since I have now had some much needed rest. My responses to you were, admittedly, unkind and very dismissive and that is, in large part, due to my perception of your intended message which was more accusatory and dismissive than actual inquiry.

I am not often so brazenly abrasive with my responses and it was both unjust and inconsiderate of me to respond to you in such a fashion.

So I extend to you a full apology and hope that our future interactions will be more constructive.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#186 - 2015-05-19 01:25:58 UTC
Accepted Liam.
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#187 - 2015-05-19 01:46:32 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

First of all, I represent a major militia alliance. Look at the 24th IC list of top contributors and you'll find my mob there, grinning out at you. With my background in the Caldari and Amarrian militias I can tell you, without a doubt, that the people fighting for ideological causes are a tiny minority. Sorry for the bruised egos, thou good and faithful servants, but you know as well as I do that there is a reason the militias are opened to mercenary outfits, and that mercenaries, privateers, freebooters and... let's be honest... out and out opportunistic pirates... provide the largest and most successful forces.

They fight for the money. The Empires could end the militia wars within a month, anytime they chose, and the way to do that would be to increase the security rating of those systems and STOP PAYING THE MERCENARIES. I guarantee that it would get very quiet, very quickly. TL&DR? The Empires don't need to consult with capsuleers to end the wars in lowsec. They need to come to terms and tell us that the Isk fountain is dry. End of line.



And this is exactly what I've been saying.

You want peace, tell CONCORD and the DED that we will no longer support their pointless excuse for a "limited" war. Make them act as peace-keepers, not war-mongers.

But they won't. Not willingly.

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#188 - 2015-05-19 01:50:35 UTC
Sinjin Mokk wrote:

And this is exactly what I've been saying.

You want peace, tell CONCORD and the DED that we will no longer support their pointless excuse for a "limited" war. Make them act as peace-keepers, not war-mongers.

But they won't. Not willingly.


And if the Empires don't want to stop even a limited war, then they will just ignore Concord, and Concord doesn't have the manpower to fight the main battle fleets of all the Empires at once. So Concord has to work with the Empires. All of whom seem to have their reasons to keep the wars running.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#189 - 2015-05-19 08:30:56 UTC
Lord Mokk, I am not sure that brandishing CONCORD as a scapegoat for everything, and especially the current proxy war, will lead to anything fruitful. Was it not for them, the war would be total. That war has been started and fueled by empires, some of them Yulai signatories. Fueled by empires, who continue to offer navy issued materials for the cost of their "loyalty points" currency.
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#190 - 2015-05-19 10:37:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Evi Polevhia
Lyn Farel wrote:
Lord Mokk, I am not sure that brandishing CONCORD as a scapegoat for everything, and especially the current proxy war, will lead to anything fruitful. Was it not for them, the war would be total. That war has been started and fueled by empires, some of them Yulai signatories. Fueled by empires, who continue to offer navy issued materials for the cost of their "loyalty points" currency.

Maybe if the big four had to fight Actual Wars they would realize how terrible and costly wars are and actually try diplomacy. As it is, this Limited War system provides a minimum amount of suffering to them for a maximum amount of profit. They will not give it up. There will not be peace as long as this is allowed to go on. And no one is giving them a good reason to drop it.

Edit: And we're not just blaming CONCORD at random. They are one of the larger parties to blame for the situations as they are. Militia, War Decs, Security Tags. There are laws in place that for some Kredits in their pocket, you can ignore at your leisure. Want to kill that man? NO! THAT IS MURDER, SIR! Unless you grease CONCORD's palms. Then it's a "war". Blow up his ship, space his crew, slam his escape pod into your hull at a few thousand m/s, doesn't matter. Cracking open escape pods and capsules like eggs is perfectly legal now that you have paid off the authorities.

They are corrupt. They are vile. People's tolerance of CONCORD is one reason I fight.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#191 - 2015-05-19 13:56:30 UTC
War dec is not bribbery, it's enclosed in CONCORD rules... I doubt you would get official messages every time if it was bribbery...
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#192 - 2015-05-19 14:31:29 UTC
Handing someone money for them to suspend laws is not bribery?

A bribe is giving something to a person or group in order to get them to act in your favor, generally dishonestly or illegally. I suppose by the strictest definition of the wording, it is not a bribe because they state it's legal. But it is a corrupt practice that allows the wealthy to prey on the weak while CONCORD collects the cash.

If you support this practice, it speaks volumes about you.
Aedre Lafisques
Nadire Security Consultants
Federation Peacekeepers
#193 - 2015-05-19 15:33:05 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
*snip*

Thank you for actually providing a real answer, though I still have an issue with your explanation.
You talk about 'asking the other side what would make them happy' yet again I point to who the delegates are. Capsuleers, you are probably one of the most involved 'delegates' in militia affairs, as yours is a name I know. And you are right about how the Empires could end it.

But the problem is.... the other side isn't capsuleers for the most part. It's all the people you haven't invited, all those baseliners. Something that will make an independent capsuleer (And I use independent to say we pay our own licenses, not the Empires paying for us like the Navy Capsuleers have) delegate happy is entirely different to what will make a baseliner happy. And this means you'll be coming to false conclusions.

But again, thank you for actually bothering to answer properly, and thankyou to the other person above you who admitted that unless the Empires chose to take things on board, absolutely nothing will happen. It's nice to see honest answers that don't tiptoe around such points and pretend.


You're right that my opposite numbers are capsuleers but they will be, I hope, Gallente capsuleers who can maybe explain from their cultural context why they think they deserve to get away with stealing my homeworld. And hopefully I can explain why it's not happening and maybe if we can find a common solution that WE agree with, it'll be one that the baseliners agree with.

You're totally right, though. This thing WILL be decided by the baseliners - all we can hope to do is inspire them.



I think it's also good to remember that we were all baseliners ourselves once. Tuulinen hopes that someone across from him remembers his baseliner feelings and understandings of the matter and can explain them. And this is ultimately what the Conference is.

Besides our uncanny ability to explode, I don't particularly feel superiority. I may speak in terms that sound condescending towards them at times, but this is because I believe that Capsuleers should be leveraging their advantages. We have more money and time. We can travel freely, work freely. It really does fall to us to do what we can. We're quite flexible, and can turn on a dime. Just as the paramilitary can change course quicker than the Navy, perhaps Capsuleers should see themselves as a flexible extension of baseliner interests, rather than necessarily proxies and raiders; I feel as though there has started some self-hate. We are very quick to assume the worst of each other - I think we feel fairly poorly about our own daily actions as well. Even the most noble of us knows exactly how terrible they really are. How are we supposed to be forgiving to each other?
Cakzad Arcashiri
Arcashiri Family
#194 - 2015-05-19 17:18:49 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Handing someone money for them to suspend laws is not bribery?

A bribe is giving something to a person or group in order to get them to act in your favor, generally dishonestly or illegally. I suppose by the strictest definition of the wording, it is not a bribe because they state it's legal. But it is a corrupt practice that allows the wealthy to prey on the weak while CONCORD collects the cash.

If you support this practice, it speaks volumes about you.


Despite my very very deep hatred of Sansha's Nation and all of their supporters, I have to agree with Heathen Polevhia on the matter of war-decs, especially within Imperial, State, Republic, and Federation borders.

"I give to you the destiny of Faith,

And you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens:

Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given."

- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 22:13
Cakzad Arcashiri
Arcashiri Family
#195 - 2015-05-19 17:21:30 UTC
And just to clarify, I am a "baseliner" who can be put inside a Pod. I'm not immortal.

"I give to you the destiny of Faith,

And you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens:

Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given."

- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 22:13
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#196 - 2015-05-19 17:49:38 UTC
Cakzad Arcashiri wrote:
And just to clarify, I am a "baseliner" who can be put inside a Pod. I'm not immortal.


None of us are immortal. We just have multiple redundancy which makes us very hard to kill.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#197 - 2015-05-19 18:51:32 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Handing someone money for them to suspend laws is not bribery?

A bribe is giving something to a person or group in order to get them to act in your favor, generally dishonestly or illegally. I suppose by the strictest definition of the wording, it is not a bribe because they state it's legal. But it is a corrupt practice that allows the wealthy to prey on the weak while CONCORD collects the cash.

If you support this practice, it speaks volumes about you.


Wait, who said I support that... ? I think respectfully that you are making big leaps of assumptions here...
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#198 - 2015-05-19 19:11:26 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Handing someone money for them to suspend laws is not bribery?

A bribe is giving something to a person or group in order to get them to act in your favor, generally dishonestly or illegally. I suppose by the strictest definition of the wording, it is not a bribe because they state it's legal. But it is a corrupt practice that allows the wealthy to prey on the weak while CONCORD collects the cash.

If you support this practice, it speaks volumes about you.


Wait, who said I support that... ? I think respectfully that you are making big leaps of assumptions here...

You seemed to be defending it in post 191. Which is why I said if.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#199 - 2015-05-19 19:59:58 UTC
Uh... well, I am sorry if it was taken that way then...
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#200 - 2015-05-19 20:15:39 UTC
No worries. I think most of us here are fairly united in how strongly we disagree with certain policies of CONCORD.