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[Carnyx] The Jackdaw

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Lura Zara
Worlds Without Boundaries Special Forces
#341 - 2015-05-18 20:46:38 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Yeah the 50 per level bonus is intentionally one of the weaker ship bonuses, to keep the rest of the package balanced. I am open to considering other bonuses like the ECCM one, and I'm interested in other ideas you folks have for bonuses that don't have a huge impact on the ship power level while remaining flavourful for Caldari.


If I may say. Ide rather see the following if the 5% shield hp is off the table

75hp/level
+x% Shield booster cap need per cycle reduction.
+x% Shield booster boost amount [Like a built in shield amp instead of HP]


Some things like those. Having a active tank dessi instead of a passive tanking EHP Block would be nice.

So far the only things caldari have that have a Rep amount bonus is the Golem...
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#342 - 2015-05-18 20:53:07 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Yeah the 50 per level bonus is intentionally one of the weaker ship bonuses, to keep the rest of the package balanced. I am open to considering other bonuses like the ECCM one, and I'm interested in other ideas you folks have for bonuses that don't have a huge impact on the ship power level while remaining flavourful for Caldari.


ECM bonus to multispec jammers only. Let it use those mids.

Twisted
Saerin Korvalu
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#343 - 2015-05-18 20:54:56 UTC
Lura Zara wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Yeah the 50 per level bonus is intentionally one of the weaker ship bonuses, to keep the rest of the package balanced. I am open to considering other bonuses like the ECCM one, and I'm interested in other ideas you folks have for bonuses that don't have a huge impact on the ship power level while remaining flavourful for Caldari.


If I may say. Ide rather see the following if the 5% shield hp is off the table

75hp/level
+x% Shield booster cap need per cycle reduction.
+x% Shield booster boost amount [Like a built in shield amp instead of HP]


Some things like those. Having a active tank dessi instead of a passive tanking EHP Block would be nice.

So far the only things caldari have that have a Rep amount bonus is the Golem...



Having a bonus that caters to a specific type of tank eliminates the idea of the ship being a 'tactical' destroyer.
Lura Zara
Worlds Without Boundaries Special Forces
#344 - 2015-05-18 21:00:14 UTC
Saerin Korvalu wrote:
Lura Zara wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Yeah the 50 per level bonus is intentionally one of the weaker ship bonuses, to keep the rest of the package balanced. I am open to considering other bonuses like the ECCM one, and I'm interested in other ideas you folks have for bonuses that don't have a huge impact on the ship power level while remaining flavourful for Caldari.


If I may say. Ide rather see the following if the 5% shield hp is off the table

75hp/level
+x% Shield booster cap need per cycle reduction.
+x% Shield booster boost amount [Like a built in shield amp instead of HP]


Some things like those. Having a active tank dessi instead of a passive tanking EHP Block would be nice.

So far the only things caldari have that have a Rep amount bonus is the Golem...



Having a bonus that caters to a specific type of tank eliminates the idea of the ship being a 'tactical' destroyer.


Thats not what tactical means.

Tactical: of, relating to, or constituting actions carefully planned to gain a specific military end.

What your saying implies 'Broad."
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#345 - 2015-05-18 21:06:56 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Yeah the 50 per level bonus is intentionally one of the weaker ship bonuses, to keep the rest of the package balanced. I am open to considering other bonuses like the ECCM one, and I'm interested in other ideas you folks have for bonuses that don't have a huge impact on the ship power level while remaining flavourful for Caldari.


4% res per level?

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#346 - 2015-05-18 21:11:39 UTC
Saerin Korvalu wrote:
Lura Zara wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Yeah the 50 per level bonus is intentionally one of the weaker ship bonuses, to keep the rest of the package balanced. I am open to considering other bonuses like the ECCM one, and I'm interested in other ideas you folks have for bonuses that don't have a huge impact on the ship power level while remaining flavourful for Caldari.


If I may say. Ide rather see the following if the 5% shield hp is off the table

75hp/level
+x% Shield booster cap need per cycle reduction.
+x% Shield booster boost amount [Like a built in shield amp instead of HP]


Some things like those. Having a active tank dessi instead of a passive tanking EHP Block would be nice.

So far the only things caldari have that have a Rep amount bonus is the Golem...



Having a bonus that caters to a specific type of tank eliminates the idea of the ship being a 'tactical' destroyer.

No it friggin' doesn't, as it still has the three modes.
Rex Omnipotens
Terminal Velocity Enterprises
#347 - 2015-05-18 21:12:33 UTC
What if it had the ability to alter its resists, like a reactive armor hardener, each level reduced the time it took to cycle the resists?
fauckasf afasdaf
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#348 - 2015-05-18 21:18:12 UTC  |  Edited by: fauckasf afasdaf
[/quote]

Having a bonus that caters to a specific type of tank eliminates the idea of the ship being a 'tactical' destroyer.[/quote]

Thats not what tactical means.

Tactical: of, relating to, or constituting actions carefully planned to gain a specific military end.

What your saying implies 'Broad."
[/quote]
At a very basic level yes but the difference is more between strategy and tactics that he is getting at. For example strategy would be to Alliance X knows Alliance Y always tends to fit a doctrine of ships that use EM damage so Alliance X attempts to use an EM tanked variant of a ship rather than omni tank and tanks all of alliance Y's damage and bombs even with impunity. Tactics would be if when on field Alliance Y noticed alliance X's doctrine is specific tanked rather than omni tanked in this specific engagement and calls for bombers to go buy explosive bombs to counter Alliance X's EM tanking strategy by making a short term tactical decision to get results during this fight.

In this situation being locked into a certain damage/tank type reduces the tactical options on the table.
Look up the difference between tactics and strategy if my hastily written. Examples are not very good.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#349 - 2015-05-18 21:18:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Terra Chrall
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Thanks for the feedback so far, especially those of you who have been testing on SISI.

We're making a couple tweaks that should be in the next SISI build for you to try out.

  • Changing the 5% shield HP bonus to a +50 shield HP per level (generally toning down the bonus a bit, especially when fitting multiple extenders)
  • +1 Powergrid
  • -50 Shield HP
  • +50 Armor HP
  • +10 Velocity
  • +0.2 Inertia
  • -50,000kg mass
  • -25 scan resolution

Man I really want to be excited about this ship but I am struggling right now. Thank you for the 1PG and speed enhancement. That helps a bit.
The change in the 25% shield bonus is a significant change and a flat +200hp gain is not impressive at all in comparison. I say 200 since you simultaneously lowered the base shield by 50, negating 1 rank.

I was willing to try out the slow tanky ship, but this just got a lot less tanky and a little bit faster.

With no Shield extenders the base HP before 900 * 1.25 = 1125 now 850 +250 = 1100, but you also get no added benefit from using extenders. Okay, I agree there is appeal for both PvE and PvP for a passive regen bonus. Bump the base shield HP to about 1000 and add 5% per level Shield Regen bonus. And DON'T make the base regen below every other shield destroyer only to be brought up to normal with the bonus. Let is be a bonus.
Marian Devers
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
#350 - 2015-05-18 21:23:34 UTC
Next week on CCP's "Balancing without guidelines" hit reality show, Rifters get a flat 2km optimal bonus per level. Just because.

Stay tuned!

Comming up next, Amarr ships to get a autocannon bonus? What will the jokester Fozzie think of next!

Exclusive interview: "I dont know how to balance ships within existing guidelines, so i decided to ignore them! I also cant remember what 1/10/100mn stands for - i think its percentage of speed increase! Who knows"
Chan'aar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#351 - 2015-05-18 21:23:37 UTC
Tiberian Deci wrote:
Hi Jackdaw,

Sorry for pissing everyone off so much you got hit with the nerfbat into the ground before you were born.

Sincerely,
Your Older Brother, the Drake



Thanks, I just spat my coffee over my keyboard!

Lol
Krell Kroenen
The Devil's Shadow
#352 - 2015-05-18 21:23:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Krell Kroenen
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Yeah the 50 per level bonus is intentionally one of the weaker ship bonuses, to keep the rest of the package balanced. I am open to considering other bonuses like the ECCM one, and I'm interested in other ideas you folks have for bonuses that don't have a huge impact on the ship power level while remaining flavourful for Caldari.


I do hope that another bonus is found, 250 shield points is so anemic it leaves a bad taste in my mouth just by reading it. If it has to be pointless at least make it fun. Like maybe free ammo for festive launchers..

Because lets face it you can just put the 250 in to the base shield points of the hull and omit the bonus slot and get the same desired effect with out the insult of calling 50pts per level a bonus.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#353 - 2015-05-18 21:26:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Thanks for the feedback so far, especially those of you who have been testing on SISI.

We're making a couple tweaks that should be in the next SISI build for you to try out.

  • Changing the 5% shield HP bonus to a +50 shield HP per level (generally toning down the bonus a bit, especially when fitting multiple extenders)
  • +1 Powergrid
  • -50 Shield HP
  • +50 Armor HP
  • +10 Velocity
  • +0.2 Inertia
  • -50,000kg mass
  • -25 scan resolution

This is not only completely unnecessary it is bordering on spiteful. Why on earth would you even think that a flat hp bonus is even viable as a concept? It's pointless compared to ANYTHING else you could give it. Either give it a missile bonus or stay with the old one; an explosion velocity bonus would be fine, but this is just wrong on so many levels.

I seriously hope this is some kind of joke because this kind of thing is FAR below the expectations the community holds its devs to. You are not a month-old character posting a balance thread on the forums for the first time; you are a dev in charge of balancing and releasing content for one of the largest online communities in the world. While it is ok to posit new and different ideas for balance, give them out as an OPTION amongst other choices, then listen to feedback. I can guarantee letting the community debate balance choices WILL give you better feedback than posting poorly conceived ideas and having page after page of backlash.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#354 - 2015-05-18 21:27:18 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Yeah the 50 per level bonus is intentionally one of the weaker ship bonuses, to keep the rest of the package balanced. I am open to considering other bonuses like the ECCM one, and I'm interested in other ideas you folks have for bonuses that don't have a huge impact on the ship power level while remaining flavourful for Caldari.


4% res per level?

Wait that is beautiful, an existing defensive Caldari trait... I like it.

The other area I was trying to figure out would have been a bonus per level to ship MWD penalty. 5-10% per level reduction is sig penalty would be welcome on a ship that will likely have its MWD on most of the time.
Saerin Korvalu
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#355 - 2015-05-18 21:31:04 UTC
My idea for a 10%-15% passive shield regen bonus per level still stands.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#356 - 2015-05-18 21:37:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Yeah the 50 per level bonus is intentionally one of the weaker ship bonuses, to keep the rest of the package balanced. I am open to considering other bonuses like the ECCM one, and I'm interested in other ideas you folks have for bonuses that don't have a huge impact on the ship power level while remaining flavourful for Caldari.

Here's a toolbox of bonuses ideas for you to work with, all of which are significantly better than the flat hp bonus:

5% shield hp per level (revert)

10% bonus to ship sensor strength per level

5% bonus to scan probe strength per level (focuses on combat probing abilities)

5% bonus to missile sig radius per level

7.5% bonus to missile explosion velocity per level

10% bonus to missile velocity per level (double bonused with the sharpshooter mode)

20% bonus to small hybrid turret range per level ( add 6 turret slots for unbonused rail/blaster usage)

7.5% bonus to shield booster amount per level

10% reduction in shield sig radius drawback per level

Passive recharge bonus (unknown inherent modifier value)
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#357 - 2015-05-18 21:56:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
How to fix the Jackdaw:

  • The Jackdaw should be as fast as a confessor.
  • You should change the layout to 6/5/3,
  • Give it 4 launchers instead of 5,
  • Increase the role bonus to accomodate the DPS for the lost launcher, (maybe not a full increase to slightly nerf its dps?)
  • Keep the current PWG and lower the CPU a bit
  • Make a meaningful bonus with percentages, not this awful flat rate hp that has never been used before for a reason (its the complete opposite of what the fitting system in EVE is, as it is completely impermeable to changes in fitting, as opposed to a % bonus)
  • Swap the agility / speed bonus to 33 / 66%
  • Fix its god damned inertia
  • Increase its mass because otherwise it would be OP on 10mn
  • Reduce its sig radius to 60


Why:
Can be answered with one simple question: Why do people fly destroyers?
  • Because they want to have fun with something fast.

A destroyer cannot reasonnably have more tank or more theoretical DPS than a cruiser, the only thing destroyers have over cruisers are: Application, Sig Radius, Speed.

The Jackdaw has NONE of these. Therefore, since you won't give it cruiser-level dps or tank (despite battlecruiser-level speed and cruiser-level agility), you must either face the choice of having it useless or change it into something fast.

How to make sure the jackdaw is not OP?
First off, its important to remind people that the fun part about T3 destroyers is that they are... destroyers.
By very definition, they cannot become something like the Ishtars that are the easy choice for PvE AND PvP, because the jackdaws - as destroyers- cannot reasonably threaten anything bigger than T1 cruisers.

    [*] Take away light missile bonuses from the hull bonuses, put them into sharpshooter mode. Hull bonuses are for rockets only, sharpshooter missile bonuses (apart from the flight speed/time) are for light missiles only.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#358 - 2015-05-18 22:01:04 UTC
What about a shield recharge bonus... make it into old school mini drake... something like 75 extra shield hp per level and 5% to shield recharge time...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#359 - 2015-05-18 22:04:48 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Yeah the 50 per level bonus is intentionally one of the weaker ship bonuses, to keep the rest of the package balanced. I am open to considering other bonuses like the ECCM one, and I'm interested in other ideas you folks have for bonuses that don't have a huge impact on the ship power level while remaining flavourful for Caldari.


4% res per level?

Yey, dual invuln + EM rig + lvl5 tactical destroyer + logi bursts. The ultimate un-killable pirahna pack

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#360 - 2015-05-18 22:06:44 UTC  |  Edited by: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Why not just eliminate the bonus and give the ship +250 shield hp? As for the resist bonus suggestion, that's pretty dangerous on a ship that already has t2 resists. I believe heavy interdictors are the only ships that see anything like that.

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