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The laser crystals rebalance thread.

Author
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2015-05-17 18:41:57 UTC
The problem with laser crystals, as we all know, is that they do awful DPS unless they're Multifreq, scorch, or conflag.

Given that lasers are average to poor tracking.
Given that lasers are midrange weapons designed to excel beyond blasters, and fall short of other long range weapons.
Given that laser boats are typically slow, and so can't range control.

We should rebalance crystals like this:

Crystals should, unlike other weapon systems, lose less damage when trading in range, This is already hugely apparent with scorch, so clearly there is a need for lasers to have this better DPS at range.


Right now, anything under multifrequency is considered underperforming, to the point that no one bothers using standard or microwave to deal damage outside the optimal + falloff of blasters or autocannons. You need a certain level of DPS to break enemy tanks.

In pulse lasers:
Multifrequency should have slightly more 0 angular velocity damage than AC or blasters with long range ammo, not a lot more, not equal.
Standard should have equal damage at 0 angular velocity to ACs or blasters loaded with long range ammo.
Radio should have slighly less damage at 0 angular velocity to ACs or blasters loaded with long range ammo.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2 - 2015-05-17 19:05:17 UTC
Lets compared Mega Pulse Laser to Neutron Blasters
Same falloff ranges, tracking is 0.0422 on Laser vs 0.0650 on hybrid

Short range ammo (T1 so Multifrequency vs Antimatter)
Laser have 12.750km range and 48.16 dps, hybrid have 4.5km range and 58.35 dps.

Medium range (Standard vs Lead, no optimal bonus/penalty on from ammo)
Laser have 31.5km range and 32.11 dps, hybrid have 9km range and 38.9 dps

Long range (Radio vs Iron, max range ammo)
Laser have 50.4km range and 20.07 dps, hybrid have 14.4km range and 24.31 dps (less range than lasers with multifrequency)

Compared to Blasters the range that Lasers have is just extreme, reason Multifrequency is so much used is that it have the range other weapon systems need to use long range ammo for something lasers use their shortest range ammo for
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#3 - 2015-05-17 19:14:00 UTC
i think the ammo variance or lack of interesting choices is a problem for all weapons.
penalties like -50% are far too huge and weakens the uniqueness of the gun your putting the ammo in.

i think a limit of 20% too range either way would be a better way of allowing the uniqueness of each weapon system too shine through more whilst allowing REAL ammo choices.

a tiercide is much needed we don't need 10 ammo choices per weapon, where people only really use 2 or 3 of them, we need more like 5 or 6 ammo's all of which give you a real choice as too what you pick

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-05-17 20:52:35 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
i think the ammo variance or lack of interesting choices is a problem for all weapons.
penalties like -50% are far too huge and weakens the uniqueness of the gun your putting the ammo in.

i think a limit of 20% too range either way would be a better way of allowing the uniqueness of each weapon system too shine through more whilst allowing REAL ammo choices.

a tiercide is much needed we don't need 10 ammo choices per weapon, where people only really use 2 or 3 of them, we need more like 5 or 6 ammo's all of which give you a real choice as too what you pick


The smaller to max bonus/penalty can be, the more irrelevant most ammo become. There would be no point for example to firing the second closest range hybrid ammo if AM is 3% shorter range at most...
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2015-05-17 20:53:11 UTC
All ammo in all weapon systems need rebalancing this is not really unique to lasers.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#6 - 2015-05-17 20:59:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
i think the ammo variance or lack of interesting choices is a problem for all weapons.
penalties like -50% are far too huge and weakens the uniqueness of the gun your putting the ammo in.

i think a limit of 20% too range either way would be a better way of allowing the uniqueness of each weapon system too shine through more whilst allowing REAL ammo choices.

a tiercide is much needed we don't need 10 ammo choices per weapon, where people only really use 2 or 3 of them, we need more like 5 or 6 ammo's all of which give you a real choice as too what you pick


The smaller to max bonus/penalty can be, the more irrelevant most ammo become. There would be no point for example to firing the second closest range hybrid ammo if AM is 3% shorter range at most...


why would fozzie make ammo with just 3% difference?? .... the point was that instead of having 10 diff ammo types thus needing the big range 0 - 75%, halving the ammo and then focusing there roles strongly the range could be vastly reduced making the weapon systems much more significant and along with weapon tiercide, choices would be better and harder too decide what too pick making more interesting choices all round.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#7 - 2015-05-17 21:40:40 UTC
I don't have much problems with lasers and there is another laser turret that uses laser crystals.

Not all dps is the same.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

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Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2015-05-17 23:32:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
Relative to everything that's not sentry drones, lasers are actually overpowered right now, the problems are:

1. There are very few hulls that cater to the strength of lasers. (read: kiting) Omen Navy Issue and Navy Slicer are retardedly good, because they can kite.
2. Just like every other weapon system in Eve except for light missiles, they're completely and totally obsoleted by sentry drones.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#9 - 2015-05-18 04:52:08 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Relative to everything that's not sentry drones, lasers are actually overpowered right now, the problems are:

1. There are very few hulls that cater to the strength of lasers. (read: kiting) Omen Navy Issue and Navy Slicer are retardedly good, because they can kite.
2. Just like every other weapon system in Eve except for light missiles, they're completely and totally obsoleted by sentry drones.

Confirming. In every size, past 2-4km, lasers out DPS everything until you hit ranges well beyond heated linked faction long-point range.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2015-05-18 05:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
All ammo in all weapon systems need rebalancing this is not really unique to lasers.


I agree but after swapping from navy microwave to scorch s, getting equal range and a crapton more DPS at range, I think there's something really wrong with laser ammo.

Xequecal wrote:
Relative to everything that's not sentry drones, lasers are actually overpowered right now, the problems are:

1. There are very few hulls that cater to the strength of lasers. (read: kiting) Omen Navy Issue and Navy Slicer are retardedly good, because they can kite.
2. Just like every other weapon system in Eve except for light missiles, they're completely and totally obsoleted by sentry drones.


Drones in general are their own problem, with sentries just being the extreme end.

The
Quote:
kite
hulls like slicer and Navomen, which don't necessarily have to be kite designed, were originally intended to just have more range projection using short range, high dps ammo. Their agility breaks with traditional amarr design, so they're compounding goodies on top of lasers.

If they were not designed as they are, if they were slow and lacked agility like most amarr stuff, their bonuses would simply make them good when they can't really dictate range, rathe than amazing. Rather than see the hulls catering to the strengths of lasers, see the hulls as having unintendedly good synergy with lasers, which were supposed to have drawbacks of the original amarr design philosophies.

Harvey James wrote:
i think the ammo variance or lack of interesting choices is a problem for all weapons.
penalties like -50% are far too huge and weakens the uniqueness of the gun your putting the ammo in.

i think a limit of 20% too range either way would be a better way of allowing the uniqueness of each weapon system too shine through more whilst allowing REAL ammo choices.

a tiercide is much needed we don't need 10 ammo choices per weapon, where people only really use 2 or 3 of them, we need more like 5 or 6 ammo's all of which give you a real choice as too what you pick


In general, the idea of using different ammo is to outrange or outdamage your opponent, because one of you is trying to control range, and the other is trying to do more DPS by having better optimal+falloff, or by having better damage at short range (multifreq/blasters). Amarr crystals can swap quickly, so they obviously should be changing their loadout in response to changing conditions, such as a brawl boat getting into range.

My problem was when designing a midrange ship to outrange autocannons, it took small dual beam turrets and navy microwave S to get the same as pulse turrets with scorch S, which is a huge loss of damage, and when you have no bite, you cant break someone's tank.


Lasers are ridiculously good, with the right ammo, and the right ship, and the right turret type. They are fairly bad any other way. I'd prefer that more styles are available to lasers rather than SlicersOnline or TormentorBrawls.

It'd be nice to range out to 15-20km with normal ships, to get the midrange countering the short range guns of thrashers and incursus, for example. Then, ideally, as amarr are slower, they don't really dictate range so they swap to shorter range crystals as the enemy gets into range, giving them some time at midrange to whittle down the opponent before a DPS race in close quarters.

I like your sig, btw. I pitched a bitchfit over the introduction of T2 ships for the same reason. T3 cruisers are just ridiculously power creep.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2015-05-18 05:11:00 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Lets compared Mega Pulse Laser to Neutron Blasters
Same falloff ranges, tracking is 0.0422 on Laser vs 0.0650 on hybrid

Short range ammo (T1 so Multifrequency vs Antimatter)
Laser have 12.750km range and 48.16 dps, hybrid have 4.5km range and 58.35 dps.

Medium range (Standard vs Lead, no optimal bonus/penalty on from ammo)
Laser have 31.5km range and 32.11 dps, hybrid have 9km range and 38.9 dps

Long range (Radio vs Iron, max range ammo)
Laser have 50.4km range and 20.07 dps, hybrid have 14.4km range and 24.31 dps (less range than lasers with multifrequency)

Compared to Blasters the range that Lasers have is just extreme, reason Multifrequency is so much used is that it have the range other weapon systems need to use long range ammo for something lasers use their shortest range ammo for


If you're going to say that the design philosophy of amarr weapons being midrange tends to fall apart with larger ship classes, I'm inclined to agree. Im focusing more on small laser turrets for the argument, but obviously as you point out, there's something more lacking in balance in the bigger guns.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2015-05-18 05:41:02 UTC
1150 dps at 58 km optimal with Navy Multi Freq with Mega Pulse Laser II is of course not powerful enough...
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#13 - 2015-05-18 06:20:16 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:


If you're going to say that the design philosophy of amarr weapons being midrange tends to fall apart with larger ship classes, I'm inclined to agree. Im focusing more on small laser turrets for the argument, but obviously as you point out, there's something more lacking in balance in the bigger guns.

So, lets do the same sort of comparison with smalls then, with all skills 5 and no hull bonuses. Lasers are in Bold, Projectiles in italic, and hybrids underlined.

t2 short range ammo numbers
Dual light beam laser II 3.6+2.5 27.7DPS 0.1828 rad/sec -1.26GJ/s
Small focused beam laser II 4.1+3.1 33.2DPS 0.1406 rad/sec -1.88GJ/s
Dual light pulse laser II 3.5+2.5 30.1DPS 0.2395 rad/sec -1.28GJ/s
Gatling Pulse laser II 3.2+1.3 29DPS 0.2696 rad/sec -1.12GJ/s
Small focused Pulse laser II 3.9+3.1 34.8DPS 0.2155 rad/sec -1.65GJ/s

75MM Gatling Rail II 2.3+3.8 23.4DPS 0.2133 rad/sec -0.462GJ/s
125MM Railgun II 3.4+6.3 25DPS 0.1395 rad/sec -0.47GJ/s
150MM Railgun II 4.5+7.5 26.3DPS 0.1148 rad/sec -0.551GJ/s
Light Electron Blaster II 1.1+0.9 37.3DPS 0.4106 rad/sec -0.42GJ/s
Light Ion Blaster II 1.4+1.3 40DPS 0.378 rad/sec -0.396GJ/s
Light Neutron Blaster II 1.7+1.6 42.6DPS 0.3561 rad/sec -0.514GJ/s

125MM Gatling Autocannon II 0.6+4 27.9DPS 0.3649 rad/sec 0GJ/s
150MM Light Autocannon 0.7+4.4 29.8DPS 0.3168 rad/sec 0GJ/s
200MM Autocannon II 0.8+4.8 31.3DPS 0.2756 rad/sec 0GJ/s
250MM Light Arty Cannon II 3+11 22.1DPS 0.125 rad/sec 0GJ/s
280MM Howitzer Artillery II 3.8+11 24.3DPS 0.1 rad/sec 0GJ/s


The numbers fairly cleanly show a DPS advantage of all but the smaller beam laser over all projectiles, an optimal range advantage over most of the hybrids and all of the projectiles, and a DPS advantage if one looks at beams vs rails. Now, lets look at one weapon with various crystals. How about the much beloved Small focused Pulse laser II ?

Small focused Pulse laser II Stats, various crystals
Conflag 3.9+3.1 34.8DPS 0.2155 rad/sec -1.65GJ/s
IN Multi 3.9+3.1 31.2DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -1.32Gj/s
Multi 3.9+3.1 27.1DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -1.32Gj/s
IN Gamma 4.9+3.1 28.6DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -1.12Gj/s
Gamma 4.9+3.1 24.8DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -1.12Gj/s
IN Xray 5.9+3.1 26DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -0.99Gj/s
Xray 5.9+3.1 22.6DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -0.99Gj/s
IN Ultraviolet 6.9+3.1 23.4DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -0.858Gj/s
Ultraviolet 6.9+3.1 20.3DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -0.858Gj/s
IN Standard 7.9+3.1 20.8DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -0.726Gj/s
IN Infrared 9.5+3.1 18.2DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -0.858Gj/s
IN Microwave 11+3.1 15.6DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -0.99Gj/s
IN Radio 13+3.1 13DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -0.99Gj/s
Scorch 11+3.1 24.8DPS 0.2309 rad/sec -1.32GJ/s


Ah, now there we find the problem! Scorch is excessive good, providing nearly the same DPS as X-ray, with almost twice the optimal range, and tracking that is more than sufficient for most targets. I can now see why you feel it is necessary to nerf Scorch down to a DPS of roughly 17DPS in this turret while maintaining the tracking and cap usage as they currently are. Oh, wait, you wanted the whole weapon system to be that hilariously broken.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2015-05-18 06:25:33 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
Actually, I said that multifreq should be slightly more DPS than AC or blasters with long range ammo, standard should be even DPS with that long range ammo, and radio should be slightly less.

Since ACs and blasters have the least DPS when modified for the furthest range, you're completely wrong saying I think all ammo should be scorch level.

Furthermore, the raw DPS does look good, but the cap use is also a factor, not to mention the tracking. The DPS doesn't look so good when tracking and sig tanking get involved, but its reasonable for you to neglect that for the raw DPS to look OP.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#15 - 2015-05-18 06:30:15 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Actually, I said that multifreq should be slightly more DPS than AC or blasters with long range ammo, standard should be even DPS with that long range ammo, and radio should be slightly less.

Since ACs and blasters have the least DPS when modified for the furthest range, you're completely wrong saying I think all ammo should be scorch level.

So, let me get this straight and throw some numbers out there.
200mm AC with RF proton in gets 11.7 DPS.
So now small focused pulse laser II gets 14 with IN multi, 11.7 with standard and 9.8 or so with radio, and you would be happy with that?

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2015-05-18 06:57:05 UTC
I don't think I've ever heard someone say lasers have average to poor tracking before, because scorch is that good. Whilst it exists, lasers aren't really 'fixable' imo.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2015-05-18 09:02:35 UTC
Why is everyone talking about battleships? You're not paying attention. What are lasers good at? Kiting. What can battleships not do? Right.

Lasers are **** on battleships. Don't compare pulse lasers to neutrons and projectiles. Nobody ever uses those on BS. Compare them to railguns and you'll quickly see how **** they are. A Megathron with railguns and CN Plutonium significantly outdamages a pulse Abaddon at its optimal range, and when using CN Thorium it also significantly outdamages a pulse Apoc at its optimal range. The ability of the rail Mega to deal damage from further away than this is far more valuable than the ability of the pulse ships to deal more damage than this when at point blank range, so there you go.

PvP balance in Eve is very simple. You fly Gallente or you go home. They're so overpowered that there's literally no risk in training for the FOTM here, as in the majority of ship classes they don't only have the best ship, but they also have the second best ship as well. So even if sentry drones get nerfed at some point, Gallente will still be the best at everything.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#18 - 2015-05-18 09:15:16 UTC
How about since lasers are basically just light-based weaponry, upping their tracking and range significantly while lowering their dps, but increasing their cap usage and giving them a slight penalty to weapon heat damage per usage, same as the crystals? you'd get excellent damage application but they'd be a lot harder to manage.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2015-05-18 09:25:18 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
PvP balance in Eve is very simple. You fly Gallente or you go home. They're so overpowered that there's literally no risk in training for the FOTM here, as in the majority of ship classes they don't only have the best ship, but they also have the second best ship as well. So even if sentry drones get nerfed at some point, Gallente will still be the best at everything.


Here and I thought I was the only one that saw this.

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell us that in niche situation #98798687687 we're wrong, but in 90% of all engagements the statement stands firm. Those are betting odds.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#20 - 2015-05-18 11:04:28 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
How about since lasers are basically just light-based weaponry, upping their tracking and range significantly while lowering their dps, but increasing their cap usage and giving them a slight penalty to weapon heat damage per usage, same as the crystals? you'd get excellent damage application but they'd be a lot harder to manage.


Have you ever used any large beam laser? They are hard to manage as is and don't need more nerfing.

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