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What if cynos couldn't be lit within 10 kilometers of a station?

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#221 - 2015-05-17 08:53:39 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:


Ok, so you are just going to make **** up and spout nonsense.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#222 - 2015-05-17 08:54:54 UTC
CCP knows how much is being moved risk-free. Blink

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#223 - 2015-05-17 11:11:16 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:


Ok, so you are just going to make **** up and spout nonsense.


They really are, it's remarkable bordering on trolling.

It's like a small child with their fingers in their ears going waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Numbers and by extension reality don't lie. They also outweigh ill informed opinions always and forever.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#224 - 2015-05-17 11:27:40 UTC
afkalt wrote:


They really are, it's remarkable bordering on trolling.

It's like a small child with their fingers in their ears going waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


Couldn't agree more. Smile

Out of the undock with 350k+ m3 to the safety of another undock lightyears away and in 0.0/LS space at the click of a button - and they call it reasonable and balanced.

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#225 - 2015-05-17 12:21:13 UTC
Let's make it so that freighters can't warp too or from closer than 10km or an npc station as well!

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#226 - 2015-05-17 12:28:04 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Let's make it so that freighters can't warp too or from closer than 10km or an npc station as well!


Supernaise trolling.

It's not like they are subject to risk everytime at the outbound gate of a new system, amrite?

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#227 - 2015-05-17 16:43:20 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
afkalt wrote:


They really are, it's remarkable bordering on trolling.

It's like a small child with their fingers in their ears going waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


Couldn't agree more. Smile

Out of the undock with 350k+ m3 to the safety of another undock lightyears away and in 0.0/LS space at the click of a button - and they call it reasonable and balanced.


And yet they still die.

So we already know using a JF entails risk. Now, why should that be higher?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#228 - 2015-05-17 17:04:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Some Titans were also dieing when AoE Doomsdays could be fired through cynos. Smile

Likewise for SKYNET. Smile

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#229 - 2015-05-17 19:15:53 UTC
If you're trying to equate freight with projecting offgrid applied DPS...I dont have words for the fail.

How many JF need to die before you concede they're actually not invulnerable? Basic math says >=1 and you're wrong, but seeing as you're not happy with SEVERAL HUNDRED losses over a 6 months....what's the number before they're not "invulnerable"?
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#230 - 2015-05-17 19:27:03 UTC
The implied angle to that is a broken mechanic and absent risk.

That is all.

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#231 - 2015-05-17 19:27:23 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Some Titans were also dieing when AoE Doomsdays could be fired through cynos. Smile

Likewise for SKYNET. Smile


There were clear problems there. So, not very good analogies. Just because drone assist ended up leading to a dominant strategy does not mean **** for JFs. Apples, oranges and all that kind of stuff.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#232 - 2015-05-17 19:29:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Teckos Pech wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Some Titans were also dieing when AoE Doomsdays could be fired through cynos. Smile

Likewise for SKYNET. Smile


There were clear problems there. So, not very good analogies. Just because drone assist ended up leading to a dominant strategy does not mean **** for JFs.


An exploit is an exploit is an exploit, though exploit is a heavy word, so lets call it a broken valid mechanic. Valid until it isn't.

Donuts do taste nice, though one can get fat and complacent as a result. Blink

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#233 - 2015-05-17 19:32:31 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
The implied angle to that is a broken mechanic and absent risk.

That is all.


But JFs die. This is a fact. Thus to say there is no risk is simple false. You've been shown the facts, and so your insistence that there is no risk makes you a liar.

That's fine though, you keep undermining your own credibility here with your inability to put forward a cogent argument.

Seriously, if you could show an actual problem I'd be willing to read it, think about, Hell I'd even consider helping to look at data. But all you do is keep making the same statement over and over that is simply untrue as if mere repetition will make it true.

I goes like this, "I think that the risk JFs currently face is too low. It is too low because......"

The OP failed to do this. His main beef was, "I can't think of a way to kill them." But as we've seen plenty of JFs die, both in HS and LS/NS. People are clearly doing it, so he needs to also figure it out like they did...or maybe go get into their corp/alliance/group/whatever and learn from them.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#234 - 2015-05-17 19:36:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Teckos Pech wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
The implied angle to that is a broken mechanic and absent risk.

That is all.


But JFs die. This is a fact. Thus to say there is no risk is simple false. You've been shown the facts, and so your insistence that there is no risk makes you a liar.


I'm fine, thanks. Smile

The percentage of losses in LS is laughable, on top of that, there is no data how many died at stations, some kills were at enemy control towers. Yes. A few were in systems with no stations at all.

Then you read some of the comments associated with them, and you get something like, "Was deploying a POS from his JF with neutrals in local", "Undocked his JF with a bubbled dread camp outside", and so forth. Blink

Don't worry, CCP has all the exact data.

Keep thinking you'll be able to cyno into the new Citadels at 0 km.

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#235 - 2015-05-17 19:38:59 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Some Titans were also dieing when AoE Doomsdays could be fired through cynos. Smile

Likewise for SKYNET. Smile


There were clear problems there. So, not very good analogies. Just because drone assist ended up leading to a dominant strategy does not mean **** for JFs.


An exploit is an exploit is an exploit, though exploit is a heavy word, so lets call it a valid mechanic. Until it isn't.

Donuts do taste nice, though one can get fat and complacent as a result. Blink


You do understand you are using fallacious reasoning....right? If Bob is cheating that does mean Tom is. You point to mechanics that were later deemed either exploits or not the way the game was intended to be played. There are many, many other instances.

This is Iroquoiss logic:

1. Nano-speed HACs were considered to be OP and not good for the game.
2. Nano-HACs were nerfed.
3. Therefore, interceptors are bad for the game.

1 and 2 are true, but the leap from 2 to 3 is completely unsupported.

Here is another:

1. Drone assist is was not intended to lead to skynetting.
2. Drone assist is nerfed.
3. Therefore JF's have too little risk.

Again, 1 and 2 are true. But leaping from 2 to 3 is simply nonsense. There is no way to make even the slightest connection.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#236 - 2015-05-17 19:43:53 UTC
Having tried to use logic, data and reasoning, I've now dropped to the level of the opposition. Thus allow me to retort with the same level of reasoning.

JF are not broken in the risk reward scheme. Because.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#237 - 2015-05-17 19:45:44 UTC
Yes, data is indeed interesting.

For the last 7 years, or since record began on zKillboard, the JF count sums up to 3,954 freighters killed, or 1.54 per day with majority being in Hisec. Smile

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#238 - 2015-05-17 19:45:49 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
The implied angle to that is a broken mechanic and absent risk.

That is all.


But JFs die. This is a fact. Thus to say there is no risk is simple false. You've been shown the facts, and so your insistence that there is no risk makes you a liar.


I'm fine, thanks. Smile

The percentage of losses in LS is laughable, on top of that, there is no data how many died at stations, some kills were at enemy control towers. Yes. A few were in systems with no stations at all.

Then you read some of the comments associated with them, and you get something like, "Was deploying a POS from his JF with neutrals in local", "Undocked his JF with a bubbled dread camp outside", and so forth. Blink

Don't worry, CCP has all the exact data.

Keep thinking you'll be able to cyno into the new Citadels at 0 km.


You keep mixing apples and oranges.

Citadels, unlike stations and outposts, will have something very different, namely guns. And while this could be a change CCP implements there are other ways to nerf JFs AND also provide an increase in risk, but one that can still be managed. For example, limiting jump range would mean more jumps and mean more chances for something to go wrong at each jump.

And pointing to anecdotes is not very persuasive. Yes, undocking from a bubbled station with dreads outside is not good. Nor is using a JF to deploy a POS with or without neutrals in system (for the love of God use a blockade runner). So you have found a couple of foolish moves...out of several hundred. Yes, that clearly and totally proves your point.

Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#239 - 2015-05-17 19:47:25 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Yes, data is indeed interesting.

For the last 7 years, or since record began on zKillboard, the JF count sums up to 3,954 freighters killed, or 1.54 per day with majority being in Hisec. Smile


I claim you are lying on the Hi Sec part. We have already seen that LS/NS accounts for 50% of the Rhea kills in a little over the last 6 months. I do not believe you have done any analysis beyond that. You are once again making things up out of thin air.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#240 - 2015-05-17 19:48:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Teckos Pech wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
The implied angle to that is a broken mechanic and absent risk.

That is all.


But JFs die. This is a fact. Thus to say there is no risk is simple false. You've been shown the facts, and so your insistence that there is no risk makes you a liar.


I'm fine, thanks. Smile

The percentage of losses in LS is laughable, on top of that, there is no data how many died at stations, some kills were at enemy control towers. Yes. A few were in systems with no stations at all.

Then you read some of the comments associated with them, and you get something like, "Was deploying a POS from his JF with neutrals in local", "Undocked his JF with a bubbled dread camp outside", and so forth. Blink

Don't worry, CCP has all the exact data.

Keep thinking you'll be able to cyno into the new Citadels at 0 km.


You keep mixing apples and oranges.

Citadels, unlike stations and outposts, will have something very different, namely guns. And while this could be a change CCP implements there are other ways to nerf JFs AND also provide an increase in risk, but one that can still be managed.


Precisely the point.

It's going to apply to all stations, however. Blink

Teckos Pech wrote:

I claim you are lying on the Hi Sec part. We have already seen that LS/NS accounts for 50% of the Rhea kills in a little over the last 6 months. I do not believe you have done any analysis beyond that. You are once again making things up out of thin air.


Exact statistics and distribution for all of the four Jump Freighters is welcome.

We await eagerly. Smile

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