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What if cynos couldn't be lit within 10 kilometers of a station?

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#201 - 2015-05-16 17:39:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Serendipity Lost wrote:
afkalt wrote:
The onus on the proposer of the idea is to prove there is a problem.

I await that proof. These allegedly 'invulnerable' ships have died a half a dozen times this week alone. Caps die wholesale.

So if you might demonstrate, with something strong than 'just because', the actual problem you're solving here that'd be fab.


Note (re)turning areas of space into a desolate third world wasteland because you hate they have nice things isn't a reason either....



The problem is almost zero risk to a pilot with reasonable sense taking reasonable precautions.

Caps will die wholesale - something said a zillion times about jump fatigue. I haven't heard anyone complaining about caps using jump gates since jump fatigue was implemented. A few have been lost, sure, but there are no threadnaughts declaring how horrible it is. Caps are now being moved strategically and with forethought. That's the only real change that has come about.

Is that it? You don't want to have to think about it? You just want to flash your ez-pass and drive straight through? All this outcry can't possibly boil down to just plain lazy.... could it? Please please keep telling me you are fighting this not for personal reasons, but on behalf of all the citizens of new eden. Show me your super hero.

(Teckos smuggly flexes and his T-shirt literally explodes of his chest revealing a massive rainbow colored JF tatoo) "FOR THE PEOPLE!!" He begins the chant.... "FOR THE PEOPLE!!" The thousands... no millions of adoring onlookers take up his chant. The sound is both defening and righteous. Louder.... louder.... (Teckos begins to believe the people love him, need him and most of all... they appreciate him)

sniff.... sniff.... what's that burning smell?? "Noooooooo, not the magnifying glass.... noooooooo"


Well I gues you are finally coming around to stating the problem...finally. Only took 10 pages.

What is the right level of risk? How many JFs should be blowing up? As I showed several days ago, quite a few blow up in just a few days in NS. In fact, based on a cursory glance at the data (i.e. killboards) we can see that most of the JF deaths are in NS. Now, it was a cursory glance and maybe I got a "good day" for NS JF kills. But you are the one who wants to change the game, so go out there and look at the killboards and start compiling some data/evidence for your position.

Okay, so I went to zkillboard because some people are either lazy or just can't figure out math (I know, its hard).

From October 28, 2014 to May 16 2015 (197 days, a bit over half a year) there were 183 Rheas killed in game. Of those, 92 were in either LS or NS. Typically a Rhea dies every 25 hours and 50 minutes.

So the claim of near zero risk strikes me as just errant nonsense and hyperbole by those who want something, but can't think up a legitimate method to argue.

Edit: Oh, and I spot checked 9 of the above Rhea kills for station vs. non-station systems and 7 were station, 2 non-station. So it seems that JFs are getting killed in station systems. I know those pilots must all be drooling morons or something. This cannot happen, zero risk and all that.

Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#202 - 2015-05-16 18:02:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Serendipity Lost wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Almost zero risk can be attained to any ship given sufficient precautions. You seem to have a problem with their effort level.

It's not a lot different to an alt scouting in a ceptor.


I'm curious, why are you opposed to making JF ~100m along with this? It's a cost more fitting with the risk. It's not even like they have fittings.



It's not about JF. It's about cynos on stations in docking rings. JF pilots are trying to make this into a crusade against JF. You should be asking why JF skin is so thin compared all the other capital pilots. I think that is valid question at this point.

Take the number of JF complaints and contrast that to the number of other capital pilot complaints. Either there are 100 JF for every capital of another flavor in eve OR JF pilots are a wee bit whiney.

I never said I was opposed to making them 100 m. I am (because it's rediculous), but until just now I've never said that.

Why is there no end to the demands of JF pilots??

1. Jump Fatigue fairy grants major immunity
2. Have to be able to cyno with minimal risk
3. Can you make them cost 100m?

EVE 2019 headlines: Goods are moved from place to place by r-clicking destination and poof magic happens. The only pre-requisite is that 'hauler characters' must posess a CODE hauling permit costing 100m isk. JF pilots are in an uproar as no one uses their services anymore. Massive numbers of JF pilots are being kicked from major alliances for being useless. The JF pilots have formed a lobbying group and are being led by a JF pilot named Teckos. He's been wandering the corridors of Jita 4-4 brandishing a rainbow JF tattoo proclaiming current conditions aren't fair and then going into a longwinded analogy involving ants. Most citizens scurry away from him with confused looks on their faces.




Because apparently you are just not getting that the New Eden economy has come to rely on the JF. Would the economy survive with less reliance on the JF? Maybe...but that is not one of the game's selling points. The economy is almost entirely player driven. Nerfing the economy, when there has been no argument put forward it needs nerfing strikes me as foolish.

And this nerf will impact all of the economy, not just NS and to a lesser extent LS, but also HS. While NS needs HS for low ends, and either moon goo a region cannot produce, HS also needs NS for moon good and high ends. Right now I'd estimate JF losses in LS/NS to about 5 trillion ISK/ year (so much for that "near zero" risk statement...don't you just hate it when facts interfere with the narrative).

More over, people often whine about the blob, coalitions (Goons in particular), the blue donut, etc.. But, with this change having more people might be one strategy people turn too. Bringing a freighter out of deep NS....having a fleet in a couple of the systems might be a really good strategy.

Oh and sorry Serendipity for ruining your "zero risk" mantra. What can I say, I'm a data driven kind of guy.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#203 - 2015-05-17 04:34:41 UTC
"If you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull****."
You can also tire them with tedium.

I hope you understand that we can all see what you're doing and I personally find it insulting to my intelligence, but in the interest of making you look like the deceptive person that you are being, I will go ahead and address a few of your "points".

Teckos Pech wrote:

1. Using one of the biggest corps, alliances and coalitions in the game as your starting point is probably a bad idea.
2. Basically you've put the cart before the horse and done a lot of grrrr Goons in this thread.
3. As I showed several days ago, quite a few [jump freighters] blow up in just a few days in NS. In fact, based on a cursory glance at the data (i.e. killboards) we can see that most of the JF deaths are in NS.
4.So the claim of near zero risk strikes me as just errant nonsense and hyperbole
5.the New Eden economy has come to rely on the JF.
6. Right now I'd estimate JF losses in LS/NS to about 5 trillion ISK/ year
7.people often whine about the blob, coalitions (Goons in particular), the blue donut, etc.


1. This is not about Goonswarm.
2. This is not about Goonswarm.
3. From the last 10 days on zkillboard (May 6 - May 16), the number of jump freighter kills in null / the total number of jump freighter kills are: Rhea 1/10; Ark 0/8; Anshar 3/7; Nomad 0/0.
So, either your data is **** or YOU are ****.
4. Did I mention that no Nomads have died in the last 10 days according to zkillboard?
5. It's nice of you to word it that way. It makes clear that New Eden's economy didn't always rely on jump freighters. I wonder what the New Eden economy would come to rely on if jump freighters magically disappeared. (Pun intended.)
6. We've already established that your data is ****. Your estimations are worthless. Furthermore, 5 trillion out of a possible . . . what? What is that 5 trillion as a percentage of the total jump freight?
7. This is not about Goonswarm.

Thank you. Come again.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#204 - 2015-05-17 06:19:12 UTC
Damn, data does hurt.

+1 Mayhaw

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#205 - 2015-05-17 06:29:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
"If you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull****."
You can also tire them with tedium.

I hope you understand that we can all see what you're doing and I personally find it insulting to my intelligence, but in the interest of making you look like the deceptive person that you are being, I will go ahead and address a few of your "points".

Teckos Pech wrote:

1. Using one of the biggest corps, alliances and coalitions in the game as your starting point is probably a bad idea.
2. Basically you've put the cart before the horse and done a lot of grrrr Goons in this thread.
3. As I showed several days ago, quite a few [jump freighters] blow up in just a few days in NS. In fact, based on a cursory glance at the data (i.e. killboards) we can see that most of the JF deaths are in NS.
4.So the claim of near zero risk strikes me as just errant nonsense and hyperbole
5.the New Eden economy has come to rely on the JF.
6. Right now I'd estimate JF losses in LS/NS to about 5 trillion ISK/ year
7.people often whine about the blob, coalitions (Goons in particular), the blue donut, etc.


1. This is not about Goonswarm.
2. This is not about Goonswarm.
3. From the last 10 days on zkillboard (May 6 - May 16), the number of jump freighter kills in null / the total number of jump freighter kills are: Rhea 1/10; Ark 0/8; Anshar 3/7; Nomad 0/0.
So, either your data is **** or YOU are ****.
4. Did I mention that no Nomads have died in the last 10 days according to zkillboard?
5. It's nice of you to word it that way. It makes clear that New Eden's economy didn't always rely on jump freighters. I wonder what the New Eden economy would come to rely on if jump freighters magically disappeared. (Pun intended.)
6. We've already established that your data is ****. Your estimations are worthless. Furthermore, 5 trillion out of a possible . . . what? What is that 5 trillion as a percentage of the total jump freight?
7. This is not about Goonswarm.

Thank you. Come again.


You were the one posting about Goons. You were a little snot about it too. And now you get on your high horse, "Oh no, it isn't about Goons!" So were you lying then or are you lying now?

Note, I clearly said LS/NS. And I limited it to the Rhea. Also, I went from October 28th, 2014 to May 16th, 2015. So, I guess we know you can't figure out dates as well as math.

Did I mention Nomads? No.

Well since we can't use carriers as psuedo-carriers probably nothing. The supply of high ends would drop of significantly as would the supply of moon goo. Good luck in HS getting T2 modules, the prices would rise dramatically.

Considering you can't read plain English you'll have to forgive me if I don't take your assessment of the data I posted, because you are too lazy and incompetent to do it yourself, for much more than a fart in the wind.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#206 - 2015-05-17 06:30:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Damn, data does hurt.

+1 Mayhaw


You do realize he can't even read. Note I wrote, quite clearly LS/NS. Considering people often have to go through LS to get to NS...and that there are many, many stations in quite a few LS systems he completely whiffed it.

But then again, as I noted, for some people no amount of empirical evidence will sway them from their dogmatic views. You are clearly one of them.

Oh, and I did a quick look through zkillboard and nomads done't show up on many kills even in HS let alone NS and LS for the period I covered for Rheas. So...is it a shock that there were no nomads in the much smaller subset of time that Mayhew covered? Well...not really if they either don't die as often or are not as popular.

I mean **** dude, you have to look at these kinds of things. But that's okay the world needs innumerates too...I guess. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#207 - 2015-05-17 06:34:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Nomads are not jump freighters.

CCP give Sandcrawler II spaceship. Good ship. (ง ͠° ͟ل͜ ͡°)ง

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#208 - 2015-05-17 06:44:10 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
"If you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull****."
You can also tire them with tedium.

I hope you understand that we can all see what you're doing and I personally find it insulting to my intelligence, but in the interest of making you look like the deceptive person that you are being, I will go ahead and address a few of your "points".

Teckos Pech wrote:

1. Using one of the biggest corps, alliances and coalitions in the game as your starting point is probably a bad idea.
2. Basically you've put the cart before the horse and done a lot of grrrr Goons in this thread.
3. As I showed several days ago, quite a few [jump freighters] blow up in just a few days in NS. In fact, based on a cursory glance at the data (i.e. killboards) we can see that most of the JF deaths are in NS.
4.So the claim of near zero risk strikes me as just errant nonsense and hyperbole
5.the New Eden economy has come to rely on the JF.
6. Right now I'd estimate JF losses in LS/NS to about 5 trillion ISK/ year
7.people often whine about the blob, coalitions (Goons in particular), the blue donut, etc.


1. This is not about Goonswarm.
2. This is not about Goonswarm.
3. From the last 10 days on zkillboard (May 6 - May 16), the number of jump freighter kills in null / the total number of jump freighter kills are: Rhea 1/10; Ark 0/8; Anshar 3/7; Nomad 0/0.
So, either your data is **** or YOU are ****.
4. Did I mention that no Nomads have died in the last 10 days according to zkillboard?
5. It's nice of you to word it that way. It makes clear that New Eden's economy didn't always rely on jump freighters. I wonder what the New Eden economy would come to rely on if jump freighters magically disappeared. (Pun intended.)
6. We've already established that your data is ****. Your estimations are worthless. Furthermore, 5 trillion out of a possible . . . what? What is that 5 trillion as a percentage of the total jump freight?
7. This is not about Goonswarm.

Thank you. Come again.


Oh, and weren't you whining earlier about JFs dying only in HS?

Why, yes you did. Quick, go edit it out before anyone else sees it!!!

Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#209 - 2015-05-17 07:00:34 UTC
That was sarcasm on his part, in that there's more danger of getting footballed and hyperdunked by Catalysts than jumping around with invulnerabilities in 0.0 space.

Occasional station bump doesn't nullify the point.

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#210 - 2015-05-17 07:37:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
That was sarcasm on his part, in that there's more danger of getting footballed and hyperdunked by Catalysts than jumping around with invulnerabilities in 0.0 space.

Occasional station bump doesn't nullify the point.


Well, as I noted, the data indicate that the risk is fairly evenly split. 92 killed in LS/NS vs. 91 killed in HS. And if you have an emergency cyno while in HS, the risk should be dramatically reduced.

So his sarcasm was completely misplaced and factually wrong.

And you are wrong by calling it the occasional station bump or,...by the same logic the occasional HS gank doesn't nullify the point.

Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#211 - 2015-05-17 07:41:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
HS ganks are inevitable for certain ships when flown solo due to TWO separate mechanics, coutesy of CCP.

Occasional station bumps are a function of amateurs, and are occasional, and for this occasion there has to be a second party present to take to the occasion and generate a killmail.

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#212 - 2015-05-17 07:51:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
HS ganks are inevitable for certain ships when flown solo due to TWO separate mechanics, coutesy of CCP.

Occasional station bumps are a function of amateurs, and are occasional, and for this occasion there has to be a second party present to take to the occasion and generate a killmail.


Then it is your conjecture that there are more amateurs flying in Null than HS?

I'd argue it is the amateurs flying in HS that account for HS ganks. If you have an exit cyno then your JF should live. When you get that first bump, jump out to your exit cyno and dock.

And depending on where you are coming from, you should not even be bumped to begin with.

Edit: FYI, I participated in 2 Burn Jita's and seen several JFs dodge CFC/Imperium gank fleets of about 200 or so pilots this way. So, no I'm not buying your "amateurs in NS" argument. Not without more confirmation.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#213 - 2015-05-17 08:08:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Teckos Pech wrote:


Then it is your conjecture that there are more amateurs flying in Null than HS?


https://zkillboard.com/ship/20183/losses/
https://zkillboard.com/ship/28850/losses/

There are? Smile

Quote:
I'd argue it is the amateurs flying in HS that account for HS ganks.


Amateurs, pros - makes no difference as the mechanics by CCP in Hisec make it inevitable. INEVITABLE. Smile

Quote:
If you have an exit cyno then your JF should live. When you get that first bump, jump out to your exit cyno and dock.


Thank you for contributing as to why this topic is valid.

Quote:
And depending on where you are coming from, you should not even be bumped to begin with.


Indeed. Broken mechanic is broken. Smile

Zero cynos won't stay.

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#214 - 2015-05-17 08:15:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


Then it is your conjecture that there are more amateurs flying in Null than HS?


https://zkillboard.com/ship/20183/losses/
https://zkillboard.com/ship/28850/losses/

There are? Smile

Quote:
I'd argue it is the amateurs flying in HS that account for HS ganks.


Amateurs, pros - makes no difference as the mechanics by CCP in Hisec make it inevitable. INEVITABLE. Smile

Quote:
If you have an exit cyno then your JF should live. When you get that first bump, jump out to your exit cyno and dock.


Thank you for contributing as to why this topic is valid.

Quote:
And depending on where you are coming from, you should not even be bumped to begin with.


Indeed. Broken mechanic is broken. Smile

Zero cynos won't stay.


What does that even prove? You link freighter kills? What? And what are you blathering on about inevitability and mechanics. If you are in a JF and you die in HS due to being [suicide] ganked...you are doing it wrong.

By the way, I think you win for the most incoherent and nonsensical post today.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#215 - 2015-05-17 08:16:00 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
If you are in a JF and you die in HS due to being ganked...you are doing it wrong.


Precisely. Smile

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#216 - 2015-05-17 08:20:58 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
If you are in a JF and you die in HS due to being ganked...you are doing it wrong.


Precisely. Smile


Okay........

What?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#217 - 2015-05-17 08:22:01 UTC
Still wondering what actual problem would be "fixed" by this change to how cynos work.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#218 - 2015-05-17 08:24:28 UTC
Risk being introduced into a 99.9% risk-less activity where rewards exceed the dangers by several orders of magnitude.

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#219 - 2015-05-17 08:36:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Risk being introduced into a 99.9% risk-less activity where rewards exceed the dangers by several orders of magnitude.


Oh for God's sake. A completely un-substantiated number you've pulled out of your ass.

We have already established that quite a few JFs die every few days, and that about half or so of those die in LS/NS.

And this is a ship that has severely limited fitting capabilities and serves pretty much one function. So, people have minimized risk while flying this ship.

So again, what is the problem? Or if you think there is too little risk how about instead of making **** up you try to come up with something based on facts. And tell us why should more JFs die? And because is the reason of a three year old.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#220 - 2015-05-17 08:51:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Teckos Pech wrote:

Oh for God's sake. A completely un-substantiated number you've pulled out of your ass.


Find me a JF kill with 250b in cargo, and you will have found a professional. Only that such a kill probably doesn't exist due to current broken mechanics. Smile

How many runs would that take you to get it across Hisec space in a freighter - 125-250 runs? Smile Then, also try to account for the work needed to move it to/from your destination in NS/LS in a regular freighter. And that is impossible. Blink

No rewards they said. Big smile

Quote:
We have already established that quite a few JFs die every few days


In Hisec. Smile

Quote:
and that about half or so of those die in LS/NS.


Amateurs.

No data how many happened at stations.

Quote:
And this is a ship that has severely limited fitting capabilities and serves pretty much one function.


So it is a freighter. Smile

Quote:
So, people have minimized risk while flying this ship.


To 0.01%. Smile

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