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Dev Blog: Shake my Citadel

First post First post
Author
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#641 - 2015-05-16 14:22:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Captain Semper wrote:
What will happen with assets after enemy capture M-XL Citadel? Will be some safty move or just like now?

I'm not sure a capture mechanic has even been discussed. At least not officially...
Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#642 - 2015-05-16 14:37:43 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Captain Semper wrote:
What will happen with assets after enemy capture M-XL Citadel? Will be some safty move or just like now?

I'm not sure a capture mechanic has even been discussed. At least not officially...


This is a very important question.

Is the only option with new structures going to scorched earth or will there be a way to take over existing structures?

I hate to picture what would of happened to a group like BRAVE moving into Catch that had been completely levelled. How many alliances have truly built all of their infrastructure themselves ?

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#643 - 2015-05-16 14:42:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
Yroc Jannseen wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Captain Semper wrote:
What will happen with assets after enemy capture M-XL Citadel? Will be some safty move or just like now?

I'm not sure a capture mechanic has even been discussed. At least not officially...


This is a very important question.

Is the only option with new structures going to scorched earth or will there be a way to take over existing structures?

I hate to picture what would of happened to a group like BRAVE moving into Catch that had been completely levelled. How many alliances have truly built all of their infrastructure themselves ?



I firmly believe there should not be a capture mechanic otherwise after an initial burst of construction there would be verylimited need for new structures. Maybe make the structure 'hull' around the same price as current corresponding pos towers and make the service modules where the expense is. Then upon destruction there is a chance of a decent loot drop from the modules.

And we need guns. Lots of guns. I want to be able to build a star fortress with 'enfilades' of overlapping firing arcs. I want someone declaring war on me to have to really fight for my station not just wave a magic torch at it!
Sir HyperChrist
Persnickety Pilots
#644 - 2015-05-16 15:50:59 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
per wrote:
[quote=CCP Ytterbium]
Unlike existing Starbases,
....
sizes maybe?


Nah, new structures will uses a completely new set of blueprints. We'll get rid of the old starbase structure modules (and reimburse them somehow) otherwise it's going to be a mess.

We thought about upgrading smaller sizes into bigger ones, but it adds extra complexity and doesn't really makes sense. Should you be able to upgrade a frigate into a battleship if you put enough money into it? P Both are built for different needs and purposes.



Starbase (pos) BPO's take quite a bit of isks nowadays to get to ME/PE 10 (or is ME/TE?)
Will we get reimbursed for that investment too?
I'd like to get ME/PE10 versions of the new bpo's in exchange for my old set, preferably.....
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#645 - 2015-05-16 18:47:48 UTC
-Loot drops:
M to L structures should drop loot of what they contain, since they are the same as poses these days. Being able to salvage the structure for components is a bonus.
We cleaned up lots of poses that ran out of fuel and collected lots of loot.
In w-space killing someones stuff is one of the very few conflict drivers so that should not disappear.
It was already hard to have to see people destroy their stuff over and over again in pos-bashes. That is why many people in w-space always asked for the removal of selfdestruction of ships in a pos-shield.
Now that would still be possible to do in a citadel(rightclick trash). But if you even scrap the possibility of loot that will eliminate a lot of possible conflicts(player interaction).
I would understand that XL structures similar to outposts would get a different mechanic, since now they can not be destroyed at all. And that they only sit in k-space.

-always docking:
Docking games suck. I can not remember pos-shield games though, never seem to happen since pos shield are to big to be able to capture people flying to safety or even getting out to fight you.
When you first come into a wormhole you use d-scan to see if there are ships in space (or wrecks on scan).
If not then you have probably a w-hole with no active people in them.
If everyone is forced to dock finding active people will be impossible.
Someone one mentioned making it able to do a show info on the citadel and see who is active.
While this is more spreadsheet in space instead of actualy having ships in space like a pos shield this is not a sufficient sollution.
I propose to just have everything inside the citadel on d-scan. If someone in the pos switches to a other ship, then again you see it on d-scan.
Also the people inside the citadel should have a complete d-scan of inside and outside the citadel. that way you will not need to be able to uncloak to see who and what is inside a pos.
Why always on d-scan? It might look like to much info at once but it is needed to prevent scout-burn-out.
Try scanning a system with 100 of these to find someone active. And after finding none tell your scouts to do an other system with 100 of these citadels.
Will there be only 1 undock? The advantage of a pos was that you needed a whole lot of bubble to be able to deny the defender to warp out.
A single undock will make it easier to pin down a fleet at their citadel, make it less likely a fleet will attempt to brake out on not timer based events.
You could align in a pos shield, will we be bumping the citadel if we want to warp to something on the other of the undock?
The size of the pos shield also made it hard to bubble completely while stations with there single undock are much easier bubbled to contain people.
Also what happened to soft mooring?
Some ideas:
Maybe later add a 3 d-view of d-scan, a bit like the current probe-scan window.
Maybe if you do show info on a citadel you get a new window . In the window a view like where you now do station spinning but all over the walls are the ships inside the citadel.


-Achoring it everywhere:
Anchoring them everywhere makes it a absolute necesity to make em warpable from the d-scan window.It would be acceptable as a temporary solution untill a bether and more fun way has been introduced.
This does takes away from the gameplay aspect from looking for a structure.
Now looking for a structure with only d-scan and your cloaked ship without probes is actualy hard and not easy gameplay (try learning it to a new player).
Why no probes? Because you don't want people to know you are there.
Just warpable from d-scan where ever you are is to easy.
Maybe make it more challenging by only making it warpable when you have it a certain angle (15 or 30 degrees) , or make a 3 point d-scan needed.
Lets say, you need to lock 3 d-scan results(select, and lock it in, in the d-scan window) with an angle of 30 degrees or something like that.
Maybe also introduce a need to be in a certain range.

-anchoring restrictions:
Please not close to poco's,gates,wormholes,current pos/outpost , mobile structures.
Not being able to put it inside anomalies , signatures, moon, planets, sun (asuming you can still fly inside those) .
Will they be able to be anchored in shattered wormholes? It might be a good idea to test the viablity of living in that space.

No local in null sec would fix everything!

unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#646 - 2015-05-16 18:55:48 UTC
-rights:
Can we set rights for people to dock, lets say some subdivision yes,other not?
Can we set it so that only allies can dock and sell stuff?
What if the owner shuts down the citadel where does the stuff in it go, available for the owner or destroyed?
Or ejected in secure cans?
Can we set it that everyone can dock and buy or/and sell stuff?
Can only the owning corp sell stuff or everyone?
Can there be some kind of system where you can share stuff between alts?
Will we have more office space,tabs, an office walking in stations,... ?
I would love to sell stuff to alliance/corp mates with this system, people could also ask for stuff by putting in buy orders.
Although what would happen to the money escrow when the structure gets destroyed?Logicaly you should get you isk back.

-Capture mechanics
By what number will we be able to change the vulnerabity window in w-space? Or will it be fixed?
Would mining/site-running/PI/industry/shipdeath/poddeaths change the window?
In w-space a defender could protect itself from enemy structures by putting up a pos at every moon.
Will there be a similar mechanic?
Might i sudgest that the reinforcement-window will be smaller , depending on how long the citadel has been online.
Lets say the more time it has been online, the more it has dug in so the smaller the timer?
It would give a small reason to stick around longer, making it more important.
O by the way it is impossible to use the constellation capture for WH's.

I am sad that tactics like dreadbuchet will no longer be possbile, or the fake pos(offline pos with heavy interdictor on it with bubble on).
Or a pos - starburst. Maybe some ideas for extra structures.

Did i say docking games suck?

I am also worried about the citadel weapons, how will fleets be able to withstand firepower of that magnitude?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=305-tQfowis
In any case if the ship with entosis link can not get repped or capped how will it ever be able to survive the citadel guns?

No local in null sec would fix everything!

Derek Toter
Viakin Industries
#647 - 2015-05-17 05:07:38 UTC
Definitely like the sound of these so far!

You said that the docking will be somewhat of a cross between station docking and sitting in a POS. How will weapons timers interact with this new docking mechanic?

Also, since the market hub service module will require fuel to run, would it be possible to have two different fuel consumption rates for private vs public markets? A public market hub should be expected to bring in more revenue to help offset it's fuel costs, but a citadel designed for corp/alliance access only would use this to provide it's members with the convenience of buying things at home, and would not be likely to see the same revenue.

Now that I'm thinking about it, how would you even calculate the fuel costs for that? Industrial services are more straightforward, if jobs are running it consumes fuel. Would the market consume fuel 24/7? Or maybe some amount of fuel is consumed to power the item-picking machinery when someone makes a purchase or puts something on the market? If the fuel costs are too high they'll offset the tax break over NPC station markets, making it pointless to use in most cases.
Terminator Cindy
Yesterday's Tomorrow
#648 - 2015-05-17 08:55:17 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


Nah, new structures will uses a completely new set of blueprints. We'll get rid of the old starbase structure modules (and reimburse them somehow) otherwise it's going to be a mess.


How will faction towers/structure modules ( and BPCs ) be reimbursed ?
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#649 - 2015-05-17 09:00:01 UTC
Terminator Cindy wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


Nah, new structures will uses a completely new set of blueprints. We'll get rid of the old starbase structure modules (and reimburse them somehow) otherwise it's going to be a mess.


How will faction towers/structure modules ( and BPCs ) be reimbursed ?


And research done on existing BPOs? Smile
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#650 - 2015-05-17 11:25:45 UTC
Not sure if i missed they will have public access option or restricted only to ally/corp ?

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#651 - 2015-05-17 12:21:14 UTC
I didn't see this in the blog but....

Presume there will be 'racial'/faction versions? and sensible distinguishing niche's between them? (well, hopefully avoiding useless items like small/medium blaster batteries of the current era)

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293

Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#652 - 2015-05-17 14:10:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Lil' Brudder Too
Elenahina wrote:

FWIW, I agree that structures should have a limited capability to defend themselves just as POSes do today. A skilled lone pilot, or a determined fleet of them will still be able to entosis you by staying ahead of the weapons, but your casuals are probably going to look for easy pickings, just like today.


The best you could hope for with a 'trollceptor' with current POS's that are properly set up is to run the guns dry, (how many dozens of hours will that take) maybe, but with enough webs/scrams, and small guns, your likelyhood of surviving long enough drops. With the new system, it would literally only take a single 'trollceptor' a dozen MINUTES. CCP has already stated that the maximum time it would take to "RF" these would be less than an hour, with a single ship, with FULL SOV BOOSTS helping the 'defender' which only exist in Null, all HS and WH structures would take a minimal amount of time/effort without the tower fighting back under the new system. (can't seem to find the post atm, but i'm pressed for time)

Elenahina wrote:

However, giving them self defense adds in some new considerations - how close can we put them to gates or stations? Lining one up on the undock of an NPC station and then letting it take potshots at people until they can bring it down is an even larger trolling issue than the one you're describing. You have to look at the whole mechanic, not just your slice of it.

This has already been answered SOOO many times...they will not be able to engage any other structure...ever...and will not be anchorable within range to shoot anything other than the fleet that comes to it. Reading skills.
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#653 - 2015-05-17 16:13:32 UTC
"DevBlog" wrote:
Medium, Large and X-Large structures will use a version of the Sovereignty capture mechanic, which means they will only be attacked through the use of the Entosis module.


I think this decision is both a mistake and a missed opportunity; a kneejerk reaction to the bogeyman of structure grinding.

While the majority of us have a healthy distaste for structure shooting, it does still have a place in the game and shouldn't be dismissed entirely. We have entire classes of ships based around delivering and repairing high quantities of damage and this is an aspect of the game that should remain, albeit in a less central role.
Dreadnoughts have always been really well balanced in this regard, with siege mode forcing them commit to an attack for a minimum period of time. Triage carriers patching up starbases have a similarly mirrored role, frantically trying to restore these assets while making themselves vulnerable.
This is a fantastic avenue for content, with opponents setting traps or scrambling to catch unexpected sieges. It would be a real shame to lose this aspect of EVE.

By all means allow sovereignty mechanics to favour grid control over ability to inflict damage, but other structures should still require a real investment in firepower to destroy. The simplest approach would be for Entosis Links to have a disabling effect on structures, but actual damage should need to be inflicted in order to destroy them for good, while an investment in repair ability should be required to restore them again.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#654 - 2015-05-17 16:13:50 UTC
I just heard structures are being consolidated to one brand to coincide with DUST environments, so that capsuleers and DUST mercenaries will be meandering in the same spaces, is this true??
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#655 - 2015-05-17 16:18:24 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
I just heard structures are being consolidated to one brand to coincide with DUST environments, so that capsuleers and DUST mercenaries will be meandering in the same spaces, is this true??


Can we be mates there? Oops
Vailen Sere
State War Academy
Caldari State
#656 - 2015-05-17 17:41:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Vailen Sere
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Chirality Tisteloin wrote:
Good evening,

Question for clarification: docking in Citadels means the same as using the invulnerability link, right?

very interesting concepts! Thanx for sharing the blog.


No docking puts you inside and safe, but you still see the grid outside the station.

The invulnerability link (we need a new name for this, taking suggestions) provides security while you are undocked and mobile around the structure.


I Suggest "Hotel Services".

This is a term used to describe when a ship and is in port, it gets phone lines hooked up, etc..

Hotel Services
Vailen Sere
State War Academy
Caldari State
#657 - 2015-05-17 17:43:48 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Grand Admiral Simo-Hayha wrote:
davet517 wrote:
The age of structure wars is upon us. Who will save the game from The Crimson Permanent Assurance?


Wait.

I feel like this is a Game of Thrones reference.


"Brace yourself Goon. Winter is coming!"Lol
per
Terpene Conglomerate
#658 - 2015-05-17 18:10:26 UTC
hmm, long time no asnwer from dev around

btw how about letting the citadel defend intself like poses do atm (ability to repel trolls with enthosis) but if they will be manned their dmg will be much better (skills + focused fire)

CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#659 - 2015-05-17 20:04:33 UTC
per wrote:
hmm, long time no asnwer from dev around

btw how about letting the citadel defend intself like poses do atm (ability to repel trolls with enthosis) but if they will be manned their dmg will be much better (skills + focused fire)



Still reading, most of the questions have been answered by blue tags in the thread already (a lot of duplicate questions).

Some questions don't have answers from us yet, but we're noting everything down and discussing it all with the team. So thanks everyone for your feedback so far.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones

Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#660 - 2015-05-17 23:37:18 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
per wrote:
hmm, long time no asnwer from dev around

btw how about letting the citadel defend intself like poses do atm (ability to repel trolls with enthosis) but if they will be manned their dmg will be much better (skills + focused fire)



Still reading, most of the questions have been answered by blue tags in the thread already (a lot of duplicate questions).

Some questions don't have answers from us yet, but we're noting everything down and discussing it all with the team. So thanks everyone for your feedback so far.


Does production of those new structures still involve PI stuff like pos structures? i.e. citadel itself will be build similar to to pos while citadel services/modules similar to pos modules?