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If CCP can make DUST why cant it make WiS?
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Atticus Fynch
#1 - 2011-12-28 02:06:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Atticus Fynch
DUST, based on trailers, will be a big deal. Very impressive stuff. Yet, wouldnt you be using the same mechanics in WiS that you use if a FPS like DUST?

Im really confused becuase the impression I get is that CCP cant seem to make WiS work right, yet DUST is WiS on steroids.

Is it a matter of not being able to do it (WiS), or not finding a good reason to do it? Obviously, current CQ is not WiS. It's a bored, clunky toon in a room, and the way CCP muscled it in on us (like it or leave) didtn work either. Nor is MT a good reason to have WiS either.

So, where exactly is the bottleneck in it's devlopment?

Where is EVE going?

[b]★★★Cargo Pilots Unite!!!★★★ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132[/b]
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#2 - 2011-12-28 02:13:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
CCP Shanghai team is not CCP Atlantis Team or CCP Iceland.

And if I recall right is most mostly Atlantis that got 'relocated'.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#3 - 2011-12-28 02:15:39 UTC
I made WiS

then I flushed
Velicitia
XS Tech
#4 - 2011-12-28 02:16:39 UTC
WiS choked because it's based on CARBON (their new in-house graphics engine that's gonna be leveraged for WoD).

DUST is based on the Unreal or Quake engine... which has been around forever, and isn't being written from scratch.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#5 - 2011-12-28 02:16:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
You can water down the booze at your bar up to a certain point before the patrons start to notice and stop spending money there.

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Atticus Fynch
#6 - 2011-12-28 02:20:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Atticus Fynch
Velicitia wrote:
WiS choked because it's based on CARBON (their new in-house graphics engine that's gonna be leveraged for WoD).

DUST is based on the Unreal or Quake engine... which has been around forever, and isn't being written from scratch.


Well then the the obvious question is---why not make WiS based on Unreal/Quake instead of re-ivnenting the wheel to your disadvantage?

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Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#7 - 2011-12-28 02:26:28 UTC
I kind of wish they would, just not for the reasons you might think.

I suspect all the "mature" players of EVE will throw another tantrum and start shooting monuments again but I really don't think that's where the sub loss came from. I think it was more to do with Anom nerf but by a stroke of luck on timing the monument shooters got to claim victory. Maybe if they were to have another shot at thier tantrum, it would become clear how little effect they really had, both the CCP and the PR girls who had a panick attack.

I'd like to see WiS just to despell the myths it perpetuated.
Atticus Fynch
#8 - 2011-12-28 02:28:42 UTC
Skydell wrote:
I kind of wish they would, just not for the reasons you might think.

I suspect all the "mature" players of EVE will throw another tantrum and start shooting monuments again but I really don't think that's where the sub loss came from. I think it was more to do with Anom nerf but by a stroke of luck on timing the monument shooters got to claim victory. Maybe if they were to have another shot at thier tantrum, it would become clear how little effect they really had, both the CCP and the PR girls who had a panick attack.

I'd like to see WiS just to despell the myths it perpetuated.



I agree.

I think the recurring theme in various posts on the topic say the same thing: we want WiS but just not the way it was implemented. More like the way it was promised.

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Zanzbar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-12-28 02:30:46 UTC
Atticus Fynch wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
WiS choked because it's based on CARBON (their new in-house graphics engine that's gonna be leveraged for WoD).

DUST is based on the Unreal or Quake engine... which has been around forever, and isn't being written from scratch.


Well then the the obvious question is---why not make WiS based on Unreal/Quake instead of re-ivnenting the wheel to your disadvantage?


because they wanted to make one engine to run all of eve rather then needing to load separate engines for each activity in the game. the carbon framework not only runs WIS but was also worked into the in space part of eve that we all know and love over the last few expansions. so simple answer is that the quake engine isnt ideal for space combat in the style of eve so a custom engine was made for this unique situation.

also as mentioned above dust514 is made from a different branch of CCP and has its own dedicated team of art and programmers and has actually been in development for years under the guise of another name
Velicitia
XS Tech
#10 - 2011-12-28 02:30:51 UTC
Atticus Fynch wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
WiS choked because it's based on CARBON (their new in-house graphics engine that's gonna be leveraged for WoD).

DUST is based on the Unreal or Quake engine... which has been around forever, and isn't being written from scratch.


Well then the the obvious question is---why not make WiS based on Unreal/Quake instead of re-ivnenting the wheel to your disadvantage?



because the Unreal/Quake engine is built for FPS and not Over-the-shoulder MMO?

note, that I'm probably wrong on the engine they're using for DUST ...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Olleybear
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#11 - 2011-12-28 02:32:39 UTC
Atticus Fynch wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
WiS choked because it's based on CARBON (their new in-house graphics engine that's gonna be leveraged for WoD).

DUST is based on the Unreal or Quake engine... which has been around forever, and isn't being written from scratch.


Well then the the obvious question is---why not make WiS based on Unreal/Quake instead of re-ivnenting the wheel to your disadvantage?


My guess as to why they didnt base WIS on the Unreal engine is the licensing fee. Why pay a 3rd party licensing fee if there is the possibility of making your own software to not only do the same thing, but at the same time have another enitre money generating game around ( WoD ).

Just guessing here, so I could be wrong.

When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life.
Atticus Fynch
#12 - 2011-12-28 02:35:59 UTC
Does anyone know what engine WoD is based on? Cause if it's anything like current CQ, it's gonna suck.

[b]★★★Cargo Pilots Unite!!!★★★ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132[/b]
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#13 - 2011-12-28 02:39:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Atticus Fynch wrote:
Does anyone know what engine WoD is based on? Cause if it's anything like current CQ, it's gonna suck.



Carbon, same as EVE.

EVE WIS/carbon is the test-bed tech for WOD, and we are its beta testers.

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
#14 - 2011-12-28 02:54:27 UTC
DUST has been in development since 1991, approximately. WIS has only been in development since 2006/7. Based on the relative levels of apparent development of DUST vs. WIS, this is my conclusion. Give WIS more time, IRL newb. Unlike some of us, you still have your youth. Straight

                      "LIVE FAST DIE." - traditional Minmatar ethos [citation needed]
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#15 - 2011-12-28 02:55:12 UTC
WoD is using CARBON, hence the whiners crying about how we're nothing to CCP but Guinea pigs for the new engine.

But tbh it's the best thing they could do business wise.

The potential risks and costs and time to build the CARBON engine and have it's first test be on a brand new game is like a double shot in the foot.

Making it part of an existing game that you were intending to use it for anyway is great as it mitigates the costs of having the entire WoD game being done while the engine is ready and works MUCH better for retaining new WoD players when it comes out cause they get an engine that is tried and true.

It lets them test the foundation of a house on something they were expecting to build into EVE so it can kinda support itself on EVE as they work out the kinks. When this foundation is ready to stand alone it will be that much better for both WoD and EVE ^^

The Drake is a Lie
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#16 - 2011-12-28 03:00:45 UTC
Dirk Magnum wrote:
DUST has been in development since 1991, approximately.


On what planet exactly is this a true statement?

/Or did you mean Duke Nukem Forever?

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Win Sui
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2011-12-28 03:07:49 UTC
Dirk Magnum wrote:
DUST has been in development since 1991, approximately. WIS has only been in development since 2006/7. Based on the relative levels of apparent development of DUST vs. WIS, this is my conclusion. Give WIS more time, IRL newb. Unlike some of us, you still have your youth. Straight


1991? Got any citation for that?

Hint: no it hasn't.
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#18 - 2011-12-28 03:10:04 UTC
Atticus Fynch wrote:

Well then the the obvious question is---why not make WiS based on Unreal/Quake instead of re-ivnenting the wheel to your disadvantage?


First of all, Carbon isn't just CCP's 'avatar' engine.

It's the name of the of project to rewrite a lot of old clunky and 100% EvE centric code into something that would (and have) make EvE better while also allowing them to use lots of the same code to write new stuff.

Remember that lots of core code in EvE was developed on a shoestring budget by very few people and after a while all such code reaches a point where you have to start to clean up and that clean up project is called Carbon.

They bought/merged White Wolf to get the rights needed to build a new game, sharing the rewritten "Carbon" code.

So WiS is directly linked to WoD, not to Dust.

Second.
Using an existing engine to render WiS would either require them to stich two completely different engines together, while keeping a decent connection between the function, look and feel in the new one.

Or rewriting everything else to work with the new engine.

Oh, and paying quite a lot of dosh in royalties for using the new engine.

Third.
Dust was written from scratch and on a totally different platform, so it makes sense to use the Unreal engine there.

The current hold (and silence) on both WoD and WiS is that CCP found out, the hard way, that they didn't have the resources (nor dosh) properly develop and maintain 3 different games at the same time so they had to slash one project down to bare minimun.

That project ended up being WoD.

And with WoD almost frozen (there's still people working on it, but very few), there's currently no shared benefit to gain from coding the WiS part of Carbon.

So instead CCP decided to refocus back on EvE's current stuff (like spaceships), polishing up a load of stuff, while still continuing the process to make the core (both client and server) both better and more generic (ie the Carbon process).

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#19 - 2011-12-28 03:11:29 UTC
You could use the Quake/Unreal engine, but best to explian is soup really.

Chefs dont like a watery soup, it tastes bad and customers complain. That is what the unreal/quake engine would be like. CCP wanted a great soup and no watery to it so they are having problems getting it to run.

Like any game really, if you didnt mind them being sucky or too watery they could be made in a month or half a year or so.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#20 - 2011-12-28 03:13:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Xercodo wrote:
WoD is using CARBON, hence the whiners crying about how we're nothing to CCP but Guinea pigs for the new engine.

But tbh it's the best thing they could do business wise.

The potential risks and costs and time to build the CARBON engine and have it's first test be on a brand new game is like a double shot in the foot.

Making it part of an existing game that you were intending to use it for anyway is great as it mitigates the costs of having the entire WoD game being done while the engine is ready and works MUCH better for retaining new WoD players when it comes out cause they get an engine that is tried and true.

It lets them test the foundation of a house on something they were expecting to build into EVE so it can kinda support itself on EVE as they work out the kinks. When this foundation is ready to stand alone it will be that much better for both WoD and EVE ^^


Not whining, or arguing how cleverly evil and smart it is from a marketing and development cost perspective to make the subscribers for one game pay for the privilege to be the guinea pigs for another game, (I'd do it too).

However, we are what we are to CCP, and up until very recently that was nothing more than a golden goose or a cash cow that allowed them to play "what if?" and deluded them into thinking they could pull off anything (jesus features).

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
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